1080p 30fps vs 25fps in UK

[shaema]

Hi every one

My previous Canon camcorder records 1080i at 50 fps and the resulting AVCHD MTS clips on my 46 inches TV set are very good for my eyes.

My new smart phone Nokia 1020 can record 1080p at 24, 25 30 fps, and 720p at 24, 25, 30 fps, producing MP4 clips.

I will use the Nokia for doing some holiday videos for personal use. It is defaulted to 1080p at 30 fps.

My understanding is that in the UK we use PAL at 50 refresh rate and so the 30 fps is not appropriate. Many people say you can not tell between 25 or 30 fps.

what is the best option: 1080p at 30 fps or 1080p at 25 fps.

Your advice is highly appreciated

Thanks

[Baldrick]

Make some samples and see what looks best for you.

Test play on your tv and not just on a computer.

[shaema]

Thanks Baldrick

Please follow this link https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ecdafxowe6fbdhd,83599y5fe889lay/shared

You will find two 15 seconds clips: 25fps_15.mp4 and 30fps_15.mp4, both are 1080p. I could not tell the difference between them. They are fine on the PC and the camcorder

However, on the TV set there is a lot of fine shaking or tremor, especially in the bright areas and I am not sure whether it is a stuttering or judder.

I would greatly appreciate if you could download them and perhaps watch them on your TV and advise me about this issue.

Many thanks

[jagabo]

Make some medium speed panning shots. The difference should be more obvious. The motion in your samples is too small to see the difference.

[shaema]

Thanks Jagabo

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain why both clips were OK in the camcorder and on the PC monitor and both showed a lot of shakiness on the TV set.

[jagabo]

Old interlaced CRT?

[hello_hello]

I live in PAL-land (Australia).

I tried playing your samples (and remuxed MKV versions) using my TV's built in media player (Samsung Plasma). It played them and they looked fine. No "shakiness".

When I switched to the Bluray player (Sony S480), the TV displayed 60Hz briefly on the screen. It didn't matter whether I played the 25fps or 30fps MP4s, the TV gave no indication it had changed refresh rates. They both displayed fine using the Bluray player. No "shakiness".

While I was at it I thought I'd try another experiment. The Bluray player will play the AVCHD folder structure via USB as though it's a disc, as long as the AVCHD folder is a root folder on the USB drive (I don't think it can be inside another folder). For whatever reason when I remuxed your samples to AVCHD using tsmuxer, the Bluray player wouldn't play them. However just to see what it'd do, I found another 25fps MKV and used tsmuxer to remux that as AVCHD. That one played, and when it did the TV indicated it had switched to 50Hz, no doubt at the Bluray player's request. When I stopped playback, the TV switched back to 60Hz.

Conclusion for me (other players and TVs may behave differently).

Any standalone files played via USB using the Bluray player will do so with the TV refreshing at 60Hz (if MKVs and MP4s etc are burned to disc I'd be willing to bet the same applies).
Any standalone files played via the TV's USB media player will very likely do so with the TV refreshing at 60Hz (I haven't tried to confirm it and it's the one time the TV doesn't display the refresh rate).
The TV's media player doesn't recognise the AVCHD file structure.
AVCHD via the Bluray player's USB input will have the Bluray player switching the TV to the appropriate refresh rate.
I can't say I've tested them all, but I'd imagine when using the Bluray player to play "industry standard" discs (DVD, Bluray, AVCHD etc) it'll always switch the TV to the appropriate refresh rate.
The PC doesn't do any automatic refresh rate switching unless you're using a media player capable of doing so, but the default refresh rate when connecting a PC to my TV via HDMI is 60Hz. A PC connected to my TV via VGA can only do so with the TV refreshing at 60Hz. The TV supports a variety of refresh rates from 24Hz to 60Hz via HDMI.

If I was to play a standalone MP4 or MKV using anything other than the PC (which I leave connected to the TV at 50Hz while using Reclock to play everything at 25fps), I'd no doubt be doing so with the TV refreshing at 60Hz.

I have no idea what standalone USB media players or game consoles etc are likely to do when it comes to refresh rates.

[hello_hello]

Post deleted as it became redundant. Extra info copied to previous post.

[shaema]

Jagabo:

No, it is a two year old Sony Bravia LCD.

hello_hello:

Many thanks for taking the trouble to look into my problem.

Your statement "other players and TVs may behave differently" was absolutely correct!

When I said "on the TV set there is a lot of fine shaking or tremor", the clips were actually played by a few months old Panasonic Blue Ray Recorder, through DLNA network. I have never had a problem with it and all other videos play smoothly.

I tried to play the same clips using the player own USB port; the result is the same shakiness or flickering: this rules out any network related cause.

Then I played the clips through the TV's own USB media player and : Bingo!!. smooth play without a single flicker in both 25 and 30 fps.

So answering my initial question about 1080p 25 or 30 fps in UK: No difference.

Now I would like to know why an almost brand new recorder / player failed to handle clips recorded by Lumia 1020.

Any comments or ideas are welcome.

Thanks to all.

[flashandpan007]

Can't be played smooth: tried that in MPC-HC with auto- framerate mode. Also MediaInfo Lite tells me that:

General
Complete name : 30_fps_15.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 39.0 MiB
Duration : 16s 22ms
Overall bit rate : 20.4 Mbps
Writing application : Lavf54.63.104

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=30
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 16s 20ms
Bit rate : 20.2 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 30.000 fps
Minimum frame rate : 15.075 fps
Maximum frame rate : 30.151 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.324
Stream size : 38.5 MiB (99%)

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 16s 22ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 257 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 503 KiB (1%)
Language : unk



General
Complete name : 25_fps_15.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 34.8 MiB
Duration : 15s 642ms
Overall bit rate : 18.7 Mbps
Writing application : Lavf54.63.104

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=30
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 15s 642ms
Bit rate : 18.4 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Minimum frame rate : 12.691 fps
Maximum frame rate : 25.381 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.355
Stream size : 34.3 MiB (99%)

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 15s 638ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 258 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 492 KiB (1%)
Language : unk

Better: Get a camcorder or a little digital camera like a Sony DSC-RX100M2

[shaema]

flashandpan007:

Thanks for your comments.

I am surprised these clips were not played smoothly by MPC-HC, they play perfect with VLC and WMP. I have just downloaded MPC_HC and it played both clips smoothly.

I do have a Canon AVCHD camcorder and have no problem with its output. The Nokia 1020 is much more convenient to carry around and I do not need to take the camcorder with me. I bought it because of its 40 Megapixel Camera and good reviews about its photos and videos.

Excuse my ignorance, does the Variable Frame Rate affect the output in a bad way? e.g flickering or blurring. I think I have to google it and learn more. Is there software to change it into Constant Frame Rate?


Thanks again

[jagabo]

So answering my initial question about 1080p 25 or 30 fps in UK: No difference.

The motion in those shots is too slow to notice any difference. Use higher motion, high contrast, shots and you'll probably be able to see a difference.

[Cornucopia]

While I'm glad that many new PAL players & TV sets are so forgiving of framerate changes, we all know that this is not a Universal, across-the-board sort of thing. There are still many players out there, both PAL and (moreso) NTSC, which are NOT forgiving of non-native framerates. Even worse with VFR.

PLAY IT SAFE. Use 25fps!
PLAY IT SAFER. Use a camera app on your phone that FORCES it to record with a CONSTANT framerate, not VFR!!

Also, are you ever going to edit or compile these videos with previous/othercam videos that were 25FPS? If so, you will get much less blending/interpolation, stuttering/flickering, and/or quality loss by sticking with 25 throughout your collection.

Scott

[hello_hello]

While I'm glad that many new PAL players & TV sets are so forgiving of framerate changes, we all know that this is not a Universal, across-the-board sort of thing. There are still many players out there, both PAL and (moreso) NTSC, which are NOT forgiving of non-native framerates. Even worse with VFR.

I can't speak for VFR as I've not played much VFR video using a standalone player, if any, but I've never met a PAL standalone player which cares about the frame rate. I've owned several AVI capable DVD players in the past. 23.976fps, 24fps, 25fps, 29.970fps etc, and odd frame rates in-between. They've always just played. I'm not aware of a standalone player ever refusing to play a video because of the frame rate. I think every "PAL" DVD player I've owned has played NTSC DVDs. One of them even used to display it's menus using NTSC even though it was a PAL player (I know because the TV would display NTSC).
Two different brand's of TV with built-in media players and two different brands of Bluray player in this house don't care about the frame rate. My Bluray player isn't new, it's a couple of years old, but then again my PAL VCR is somewhat more ancient than that and it plays NTSC VHS tapes, which I believe, have a different frame rate to PAL.

[hello_hello]

Both clips play perfectly fine using MPC-HC for me.

I think the video is actually constant frame rate. The frame timestamps are a little "odd" which I guess technically might make the frame rate variable, or if not variable, just a little bit off being exactly 25fps or 30fps, as according to ffdshow each frame has the same duration (for the 25fps sample it reports each frame as having a duration of 39.996ms rather than 40ms). I think MediaInfo is somewhat wrong (similar to the way it reports Handbrake encodes with MP4 output as variable when they're probably not).
It's a little over my head and I haven't spent a lot of time playing around trying to work it out, but I demuxed the audio and video from one of the MP4 samples then remuxed them into a new MP4, which I suspect should play fine using the fussy Panasonic Bluray Recorder.

According to ffmsindex the attached version has exactly the same frame count and duration as the original, so if I'm correct the process seems to clean up the frame timestamps even though I don't really understand it all anyway....
Maybe the Bluray recorder can cope with various "standard frame rates" but when they deviate from that a little, it can't.

So answering my initial question about 1080p 25 or 30 fps in UK: No difference.

It depends how the video is played and the format (MP4, AVCHD etc). The short answer would be "no difference", the long answer would be "if you prefer the frame rate and refresh rate to match, it seems that's more likely to happen if you record at 30fps".

[pandy]

but then again my PAL VCR is somewhat more ancient than that and it plays NTSC VHS tapes, which I believe, have a different frame rate to PAL.

Perhaps this because VCR will play this as NTSC 4.43MHz? check video signal timing as VCR will not perform any framerate conversion (unless they have digital circuitry to do such tricks as some "worldwide" VCR)

[jagabo]

I've owned several AVI capable DVD players in the past. 23.976fps, 24fps, 25fps, 29.970fps etc, and odd frame rates in-between. They've always just played. I'm not aware of a standalone player ever refusing to play a video because of the frame rate.

I agree that most players are very flexible as far as different source frame rates are concerned. But that's not really the issue the OP is asking about. He want to know which will be smoother when he watches them.

25 and 30 fps is always a little flickery and jerky during high contrast, medium speed motion. But on 50 Hz display 30 fps will exhibit a judder in addition to those problems as individual frames are displayed for unequal amounts of time (some for 1/50 sec, others for 1/25 sec). This is similar to the judder of displaying 24 fps material on a 60 Hz display. Watch 24v30v60.avi in this post, full screen, on a 60 Hz display:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/307004-Best-framerate-conversion-%28eg-23-97-to-30-...=1#post1888926

[poisondeathray]

jagabo is correct - it's impossible to display 30fps on a 50Hz screen perfectly . 25fps works, because it's evenly divisible into 50.

But whether or not someone can tell the difference is another story - some people are extremely sensitive to juddering, others cannot tell the difference

Most "NTSC" people are used to the 3:2 judder from 24p content on 60Hz displays. Because they grew up with it. But when folks from the UK come over for a visit, they can usually tell something is weird

[flashandpan007]

WMP and VLC can't play 25p smoothly on their own because computers use 60.000p (not 59.940p!!) by default, but 30p is not always 30.000p. It should be 29.970p, but it can also be 30.000p. But MPC-HC can if the files are constant frame rate.
24p is not 24p: There is 23.976p (24.000/1.001) and 24.000p.
The only real framerate is 25p/50p.

Press CTRL + J while playing in MPC-HC and you can see in EVR Custom a graph with a red and a green line: These should be parallel when playing files really smoothly.

I personally would be more interested in constant framerate as in difference of 25p/30p. Take also a look at 50p and 59.94p.

[hello_hello]

I don't know if you guys read my earlier posts, but the frame rate/refresh rate thing is why I went to the trouble of checking which refresh rates my TV was using when playing different types of video using the Bluray player to play standalone files. Best as I can tell, even though I live in PAL-land and therefore own a TV and Bluray player which are officially "PAL", the only time the Bluray player will switch the TV to 50Hz is when playing a PAL disc (Bluray, DVD etc) or when playing a "PAL" AVCHD folder via USB. For everything else, the TV seems to stay refreshing at 60Hz. I suspect, though I'm not sure I've checked, the TV's built in media player also plays standalone video files with the TV refreshing at 60Hz.

Therefore, assuming my TV and player are typical, the OP would probably be better off using 30fps.

I'm using XP so I can't choose between 59.940Hz and 60Hz. I believe later versions of Windows allow you to. I generally leave my TV at 50Hz while using ReClock to play everything at 25fps, which gives me a kind of "PAL film mode". Plus I also have a reasonable amount of interlaced PAL, or 50fps video, but very little interlaced or 29.970 progressive video etc. According to Reclock, when I connect to the TV at 50Hz it's actually connected at 50.002Hz. 60Hz is really 60.002Hz, 25Hz is really 25.001Hz and 24Hz is really 23.951Hz. The timings never seem to be exactly what they should be.

As for the samples in question, here's what ffdshow reports (25fps sample):



I made a mistake in my earlier post. I said the frame duration is 39.996ms but I misread it. Every frame has a duration of 39.3996ms. There's probably overlapping frame timestamps which seem to upset MediaInfo when reporting frame rates in MP4s, but if you do the math:
1000ms / 39.3996ms = 25.381fps
Which just happens to be the maximum frame rate reported by MediaInfo. However before I believe anything MediaInfo says in relation to MP4s I generally remux them as MKVs and check again. If you take the "25_fps_15.mkv" sample and remux it as an MKV with MKVMergeGUI, MediaInfo will then report a constant frame rate of 25.381fps. It seems pretty likely to me the camera's 25fps mode actually records at a constant frame rate of 25.381fps, and there's really nothing variable about it. Technically, I guess, what I did to the sample attached to my previous post was wrong. I should have remuxed it at 25.381fps instead of 25fps.

Edit: After remuxing the 30fps MP4 sample as an MKV, MediaInfo reports the MKV as having a constant frame rate of 30.151 fps.

[poisondeathray]

I did not know 50Hz "PAL" TV sets could switch frequencies - is that common ?

If that's true, 30p on a 60Hz display may look slightly smoother than 25p on a 50Hz display

But in the UK , I would still shoot 25FPS for many important reasons. Scott mentioned some of them above. Shutter speed and electrical mains frequency is probably the top of the list .

[DB83]

I did not know 50Hz "PAL" TV sets could switch frequencies - is that common ?

I may have this wrong so apolgies upfront.

Remember that here in the UK we have this PAL60 mode so PAL equipment can play NTSC source media.

Of course this only applies for VHS but I do recall that when I played a NTSC(Region 0) dvd thro my Sony HDTV there was a slight picture disturbance which could be the switching from 50hz to 60hz and the dvd played back as smooth as a [insert your own here]

[Cornucopia]

Thanks, but I think I'll refrain from [inserting my own] THERE. I've got better places to put it.

No really, I can't tell if by your last comment you mean it IS smooth, or that it isn't...?

I would strongly suggest to all consumers that, unless their circumstances are unusual & quite constraining, they should ALWAYS stick to the native TV system of their land, for compatibility's sake. Adaptive players & TVs are a nice bonus, but I wouldn't count on them always being there. Would that it were so.

Scott

[hello_hello]

I did not know 50Hz "PAL" TV sets could switch frequencies - is that common ?

If that's true, 30p on a 60Hz display may look slightly smoother than 25p on a 50Hz display

My other half has an LCD TV which must be 6 or 7 years old. Maybe a bit older. It'll do both 50Hz and 60Hz. I remember when I set it up for her I contemplated whether to configure MPC-HC to switch refresh rates, but decided to go for "low maintenance mode" and left the laptop connecting at 60Hz. I can't remember if her TV supports other (lower) refresh rates, but I think it does.

My TV supports various refresh rates from 24Hz to 60Hz, depending on the resolution. They're the refresh rates listed in the Nvidia control panel under "TV". A couple of the "PC" resolutions go as high as 75Hz. I've tried them and the TV displays 75Hz when it switches, and the slight "buzz" emitting from the rear of the TV changes pitch according to whether the refresh rate is 60Hz or 75Hz (it's a Plasma), but I've never checked to see if there's some sort of internal conversion going on. I might later, as I'm curious now.....

But yeah, the TV happily switches refresh rates according to what the Bluray player instructs it to do. The Bluray player also supports Bluray's "film mode" which is far as I'm aware, only applies to 24fps video. There's no 25fps "PAL film mode", as such.
Actually the TV has a PC/HDMI input. If you connect something to that input at 60Hz it goes into "PC monitor mode". Pretty much the same as when connecting via VGA. It only works like that at 60Hz. Connect something to the same input at 50Hz and it stays in TV mode. I'd bet a lot of PAL TVs would have some sort of PC/HDMI input these days, given VGA support is becoming less common.



The 576p and 480p resolutions only support 50Hz and 60Hz respectively and at 720p I can only choose either 50Hz or 60Hz. I've never really played around with custom refresh rates much to see what'd work as I leave it at 1080p.
If I remember correctly my other half also has a 59.940Hz option as she runs Win7, although I kind of remember the TV only refreshed at 59.940Hz even if 60Hz was selected, but I'd need to check. I set hers up a fair while ago.

Remember PAL and NTSC really only apply to 720x480 and 720x576. When it comes to high definition there is no PAL or NTSC as such. The same could be said for SD video with square pixels (ie AVIs). It's just frame rates, refresh rates and resolution. Viewed on a CRT TV they would need to be converted to PAL or NTSC but not so much any more. 1080p is 1080p no matter where you live.

[hello_hello]

Anyway, something else I noticed while playing with the OP's samples.....

When I play the original MP4 sample with MPC-HC/MadVR, MadVR reports the frame rate as 25.381fps, but ReClock thinks it's 25fps so doesn't adjust it. MadVR reports a frame drop every 2.63 seconds (refresh rate 50Hz). MP4s...... sigh.

For the remuxed MKV version MadVR and ReClock both agree on 25.381fps, so ReClock can slow it down to 25fps and MadVR no longer reports regular frame drops.

[pandy]

Why discuss about Windows as Windows is non real time OS thus jitter in video frame rate is unavoidable...

[hello_hello]

Did you read any of the posts?

[pandy]

Did you read any of the posts?

Most of them and this is why i've asked - why you talking about fraction of frames and jitter if Windows per se suffer from crappy architecture being not real time OS without focus on multimedia?

i mean discussion is purely academic, also i see that some people see problem some not - thus no sense to have long dispute about what is more important - Christmas or Eastern...

btw
assumption that each hardware player behave identically and accept various formats without problems seem to be very risky...

[shaema]

Dear all

Many thanks for your excellent and informative contributions to my little problem which has generated hot debates and discussions.

To start with, I have been confused and ignorant about frame rates, video jitter and the multitudes of media players and encoders.

Now I have become more confused and more ignorant; I began reading about variable and constant frame rates, then MPC_HC EVR graph was mentioned and I had to read more about red and green lines relation to frame rates, I tried this on different video clips and did not understand any bit of it so I had to give it up.

There was so much information and details in your posts that require so much time to learn and study, it was really appreciated.

Eventually I managed to change variable frame rate into constant one in many clips and the outcome was disappointing.

The fussy Panasonic Recorder produced the same shakiness and flickering whether the frame rate was constant or variable.

I will try to play these clips in a different blue ray player and if they are OK it means my Panasonic is to blame! and that Nokia 1020 video output is OK.

Thanks again

[flashandpan007]

What panasonic camcorder do you have? Let me know.
Give Panasonic a Chance. They are good. I have a X900M.
Here are 50p samples. Be sure to watch them in 50p mode with MPC-HC (red and green line parallel as already mentioned)
Only 50p/59.94p is smooth 25p and 30p can't be smooth by itself.
Download MTS files:
http://www.videoaktiv.de/Testvideos/Panasonic/Testvideo-Panasonic-HC-X-929.html
http://www.videoaktiv.de/Testvideos/Panasonic/Testvideo-Panasonic-HC-X-900-M.html

Here you can download other sample clips of cams in 25/50p, some are 30.000 and also others.
http://www.videoaktiv.de/Table/Testvideos/