Disadvantages of M2TS compared to MKV for Blu-ray rips?

[haggis999]

Last year, I made the decision to start ripping my Blu-ray (and DVD) collection to a computer-based format. I chose to rip to MKV files (using MakeMKV) without any re-encoding. That enabled me to preserve the original video quality but save a bit of disk space by eliminating unnecessary subtitle and audio tracks. However, I have recently become aware that if I use AnyDVD to allow me to copy the primary M2TS file on a Blu-ray disk then this format appears to offer some advantages over MKV, despite the larger file size (44.2GB vs 38.4GB in the example I have checked).

I use the excellent Oppo BDP-105 media player but it does not yet support PGS/SUP subtitles within an MKV. As subtitles are vital for my purposes, I am therefore forced to extract the SUP files and convert them to VOBs, which adds quite some time to the overall ripping process. In comparison, the Oppo is happy to display the original subtitles in an M2TS file. I have also found that an MKV file takes twice as long to load (the example I checked took 16 secs to load versus 8 secs for the equivalent M2TS).

Are there some limitations with M2TS files I should be aware of? My experience with such files is very limited.

David

[Baldrick]

I'm moving you to our blu-ray ripping section.

The main movie may contain several m2ts files. You must then use bdinfo,tsmuxer or clown_bd to make a single m2ts from the blu-ray.

[haggis999]

That explains why my most recent attempt to extract SUP files from what I thought was the only relevant M2TS file for a Blu-ray recording of an opera only gave me the subtitles for the first act! I have just rechecked that disk and the second act was indeed on another M2TS file. None of my previous Blu-ray rips had used more than one M2TS file (or I haven't checked the subtitles properly on all of my MKVs). Many thanks for that vital bit of information.

Are there any other M2TS issues for me to contend with?

David

[hello_hello]

Does m2ts support chapters? Maybe it's a tsmuxer thing, but I know if I open an MKV containing chapters and remux it as an m2ts file using tsmuxer, the resulting m2ts file contains no chapters. Likewise if I tell tsmuxer to mux it as a "Bluray folder" the resulting m2ts file within contains no chapters. However when opening the index.bdmw file created in the "Bluray folder" or the 00000.mpls file, then there be chapters.

[haggis999]

I have never used tsmuxer for this purpose. My m2ts files are simply copied from original Blu-ray disks (with decryption being handled by AnyDVD) and they must contain chapter information, as the Previous and Next buttons in a player enable me to jump back and forward between the chapters. There appears to be no difference in this respect between my mkv and m2ts files.

David

[hello_hello]

Are you ripping to a single m2ts file (like you'd rip to a single MKV) or to a Bluray folder structure? Because everywhere Google has led me indicates an m2ts file itself can't contain chapters. They're stored elsewhere in the Bluray folder structure. If you move a ripped m2ts file to a different location and open it, do you still have chapters? If I'm correct and you don't mind keeping the folder structure rather than a single file then it doesn't matter. If I'm wrong..... please let me know. tsmuxer will mux Bluray subtitles into m2ts files, so I'd assume if chapters inside m2ts files could be done, it would.

http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6746#p28477
http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?t=21970
https://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?24247-m2ts-Chapters
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156210

Or try opening an m2ts file with MediaInfo to see if it reveals chapters within. It will if an MKV or MP4 etc contains them (there's a link to the portable version of MediaInfo on that page which doesn't come bundled with adware).

[haggis999]

I have not been making any attempts to copy the entire contents of a Blu-ray disk to a folder on my NAS. In addition to my mkv rips, I have only copied one m2ts file so far. Having only just learned that the main feature on a Blu-ray could be stored in more than one m2ts file, I have not yet tried merging multiple files into a single m2ts. However, if there are issues that arise from such merging then I might be able to live with manually switching from one m2ts to the next (though that would not be an ideal result).

I have opened this sample m2ts file in MediaInfo but I cannot see any reference to chapters. Perhaps I am not looking in the right place. However, the simple fact that I can jump from one chapter to another in a media player must mean that chapter information is present somewhere in this file.


David

[haggis999]

My apologies. You are right and I was wrong to claim that I could step between chapters in my sample m2ts file!

I have just tested this again and realised that what had happened is that when I hit the Prev button on my media app when playing the m2ts it had actually stopped playing that file and started playing the next file in the folder - which happened to be the mkv version of the same Blu-ray. I just assumed that I had gone back to the beginning of the m2ts and never noticed the switch of file type. When I was then able to step forward through the chapters I therefore assumed that there was chapter data in the m2ts.

Unless there is a way around this, that discovery is enough to persuade me that my original choice of ripping to mkv was correct.

David

[hello_hello]

I'm not aware of a way around it, aside from sticking to a Bluray folder structure rather than a single m2ts file. I don't need subtitles much (just the odd foreign language movie or the foreign language parts of an "English" movie) but if you're working with them often I can fully understand converting them is a huge pain. If I do use subtitles, as I generally re-encode the video anyway (and because DVD subtitles generally look somewhat average), I pretty much always convert subtitles to srt with Subtitle Edit then hard-code them into the video.
I can sympathise though..... every time I rip a DVD or Bluray disc and discover there's forced subtitles within, I do feel like having a little cry.....

It's may be a long shot, but the player doesn't support "external" subtitles as such does it? ie if you kept the subtitles as a separate stream rather than muxing them into the MKV, any chance it'd read them? I'm pretty sure that's not too uncommon for text subtitles such as srt, but I'm not sure about other types.

[haggis999]

I'm not aware of a way around it, aside from sticking to a Bluray folder structure rather than a single m2ts file.

Are you saying that if I copy the entire contents of a Blu-ray disk to my NAS I could fully duplicate the experience of playing the original disk, including the original Blu-ray menu?

David

[hello_hello]

Are you saying that if I copy the entire contents of a Blu-ray disk to my NAS I could fully duplicate the experience of playing the original disk, including the original Blu-ray menu?

With a software player such as MPC-HC you can at least navigate between chapters by opening the Bluray index file. Possibly access the Bluray menus too as you can with DVD menus, but I've not tried that.
The player might function exactly as if you were playing the original disc if you copy the whole Blu-ray structure to your NAS. Testing out whether it will or not wouldn't seem unreasonable to me.

You've got me curious now..... I'll use tsmuxer to remux an MKV using the Blur-ray folder structure and stick it on an USB stick to see what my Sony Bluray player has to say about it. The manual doesn't specifically say it will, while also not specifically saying it won't.

[johns0]

You will have to remux as avchd and keep the name AVCHD for the folder for the sony blu-ray player so it will play properly with chapters and subs if they are present.

[hello_hello]

I'm remembering now why I use a PC as a media player, and hard-code subtitles.....

I tried remuxing as a Blu-ray folder structure. Maybe I didn't put it in a folder with a Sony friendly name, but I didn't have any joy. The S480 would play the m2ts file within via USB, but that's about it.

I tried an MKV containing Blu-ray subtitles. The player seemed to know there were subtitles to be found.... I could use the remote to turn them on and off.... but nothing displayed. Odd. No MKV chapters either, by the look of it.

johns0's suggestion to use AVCHD as the folder name (and AVCHD structure within) worked. I guess you're supposed to use specific resolutions for that one? I picked a small MKV to remux not thinking about the resolution, which turned out to be 640x480. The video still played though. I just had to switch the TV to 4:3 mode. Playing video with hardware players really is a chore. But anyway..... chapter menu, Blu-ray subtitles.... they worked fine.

All that was via USB. Whether it'd change when playing video via a network or DLNA I don't know. I've never connected the player to a network.

[hello_hello]

If you want to try AVCHD with your player, tsmuxer will remux files that way for you. Or maybe discs can be ripped directly to AVCHD format?

[johns0]

You can use any resolution that's blu-ray compatible plus a few more for playing avchd on usbYou can rip the blu-ray folder and convert it to avchd without re-encoding.

[haggis999]

You've got me curious now..... I'll use tsmuxer to remux an MKV using the Blu-ray folder structure and stick it on an USB stick to see what my Sony Bluray player has to say about it. The manual doesn't specifically say it will, while also not specifically saying it won't.

In my experience, you can assume nothing about the ability of any player (hardware or software based) to handle media files properly. The devil is very much in the detail. You just have to suck it and see.

I think my purpose in raising this thread has now been served. I toyed with the idea of giving up on MKV in favour of M2TS files but the lack of chapter support in M2TS is a killer blow for me. I will just have to live with the need to convert PGS subtitles to VOBs until such time as the firmware in my Oppo player is updated to support PGS subtitles in MKV files streamed via DLNA.

David

[haggis999]

It's may be a long shot, but the player doesn't support "external" subtitles as such does it? ie if you kept the subtitles as a separate stream rather than muxing them into the MKV, any chance it'd read them? I'm pretty sure that's not too uncommon for text subtitles such as srt, but I'm not sure about other types.

I checked out SRT subtitles some time ago. They did indeed work on my Oppo but creating the SRT files from the PGS originals was a real pain. A lot of manual intervention was required to assist the OCR conversion. I tested this on My Cousin Vinny and it took me well over an hour.

David

[johns0]

You can d/l srt subs for movies instead of ocr, conversion,i do that for my movies at times cause it's a real pain doing ocr conversion even with subtitle edit in tesseract mode.

[hello_hello]

Every time I've downloaded subtitles I've spent more time fixing them (spelling, OCR errors, timing etc) than I would have spent converting them to srt myself.

[johns0]

It only take me about 10 minutes max correcting a srt,good ones take me a minute.

[haggis999]

I have never looked for SRT downloads but I suspect that they will not be available for more specialised Blu-ray recordings, such as opera performances.

SRTs have other disadvantages in addition to OCR issues. The original subtitles in the movie My Cousin Vinny are not all rooted to the same place on the screen. They are carefully placed to avoid obscuring important parts of the image and lateral positioning is used to indicate which character is speaking when two characters are having a conversation. All of this is lost after conversion to SRT.

David

[Steve(MS)]

That is getting fairly picky and if that is the case, you may need to stick with playing the original (from disc).

[haggis999]

That is getting fairly picky and if that is the case, you may need to stick with playing the original (from disc).

I have no need to do that if I stick with MKV rips, which contain my VOB conversions of the original PGS subtitles. Those conversions are an exact replica of the originals.

At present, I have zero interest in SRT subtitles. My mention of those more subtle issues with SRT conversions was just meant to be of academic interest. They are also trivial problems compared with the OCR difficulties I experienced with SRT creation. More importantly, using SRTs does nothing for me that is not done better by VOB conversions, which also take less time to create. Sticking with VOBs is therefore a no brainer, as far as I am concerned.

David

[johns0]

How are you converting sups to idx/sub?

[haggis999]

How are you converting sups to idx/sub?

After extracting the SUP files using MKVExtract, I convert them to IDX/SUB with BDSup2Sub. I then merge the converted subtitles into my original MKV file using MKVMerge.

This conversion process requires very little manual assistance, unlike SRT conversions. The only inputs I have to provide are names for each subtitle (in the hope that my Oppo might one day make use of them) and default choices for audio and subtitle tracks (all of this is done in MKVMerge).

David

[johns0]

I do the reverse converting idx/sub to sup using mkvcleaver for extracting,i do this for blu-ray authoring of my dvd collection so i can have all 22 episodes on one disc plus have the stylized subs,my sony bdp-s380 only reads srt on usb or data disc

[haggis999]

Are you saying that your Sony player won't let you play rips of your DVDs with proper subtitles, thus forcing you to stick with silver disks?

[johns0]

What i'm saying is my sony wont display pgs subs merged with mkv files so i need to author therm to display the subs.When i rip my blu-rays and re-encode them to mkv to fit a few on one blu-ray i use srt subs since the movies are out of blu-ray spec.

[haggis999]

Your Sony has the same problem as my Oppo with the native Blu-ray subtitles in a MKV rip, which is why I convert them to VOBs. In due course, I am hoping for an Oppo firmware update that will allow PGS subtitles in MKV files over DLNA.

Your reference to putting "22 episodes on one disk" suggests that we may have slightly different objectives. With any luck I will never burn another silver disk. I took the decision last year to invest in a Synology NAS, which is where I store all my MKV rips. Disk space is relatively cheap these days and so I have no interest in storing anything other than original quality video. In other words, I am seeking to gain the maximum operating convenience without any compromise in video or audio quality.

David

[johns0]

Actually i never checked to see if my sony can play mkv with vobsubs and it can so I'm going to use idx/subs when i can instead of srt like you do,thanks for info.