How to achieve mp4(x264) compression of Debut Video Capture in Sony Vegas

[Lukis]

Hello,
I am using Debut Video Capture software to record my screen (948x534px in mp4 h264 encoder with Ratefactor of 28) and afterwards I edit those clips and render then in Sony Vegas.

My problem is that the video from Debut is like 6 hours long and take only about 1,5GB of space (in properties of the video: 448kbps) while keeping good quality of the content.

When I export through Vegas though I have really damn hard time to keep the size low while maintaining decent quality. Usually it goes like 5 hours of video takes 2,5GB (1000kbps) while having a tiny drop in quality.

I am using this setting to render:
Sony AVC format
948x534px
Profile: Main
Entropy coding: CABAC
Frame rate: NTSC
Bit rate: 1000kbps

I know, I can probably knock down the bitrate, but the quality loss would be simply too much (or maybe that is simply the drawback of recoding the mp4).

So my question is:
Is there any way to achieve Debut compression after editing in Vegas? I was searching for codecs and found x264vfw, which renders to .avi with x264, but it did not gave me the result yet, even though I set the settig like they are in Debut (ratefactor to 28).

Thank you very much

[poisondeathray]

filesize = average bitrate * running time


You'll never get the same quality at the same bitrate or filesize, because the video has to be decompressed then recompressed . Since it's a lossy codec you're using, you will incur "generation loss" . Basically the quality goes down every time you re-encode it , because bits of data are discarded each time

What codec and settings are you using to record with in Debut Video Capture ? Use mediainfo view=>text on the MP4 recording, copy & paste the results back here

[Lukis]

Here are the specs of the video that came straight out of Debut:

Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 692 MiB
Duration : 2h 56mn
Overall bit rate : 546 Kbps
Writing application : Lavf53.4.0

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L3.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 2h 56mn
Bit rate : 414 Kbps
Width : 948 pixels
Height : 534 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 28.877 fps
Minimum frame rate : 2.500 fps
Maximum frame rate : 30.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.028
Stream size : 524 MiB (76%)
Writing library : x264 core 116 r2066 ddf82cd
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-4 / threads=4 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc=crf / mbtree=0 / crf=28.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 2h 56mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 162 MiB (23%)

It is maybe good to point out, that I am ONLY cutting and moving those clips - no image modification whatsoever, so smart rendering might be solution as well. I was also trying to find some smart rendering editor, as I know, that Vegas is able to process some file types without recompression (but not mp4), but I have no luck at finding such.

Anyway, I thought it would be about reencoding the video, so now I might change my priorities ... simply try to knock the size down as much as possible while maintaining decent quality... I guess, that can be done only by selecting proper codec.

[poisondeathray]

Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 28.877 fps
Minimum frame rate : 2.500 fps
Maximum frame rate : 30.000 fps

The other issue is it's VFR (variable frame rate) , which can reduce the file size. Basically for things like slide shows, screen recordings - there is a lot of low activity or static frames. Those sections can be represented by say, a few frames instead (a low FPS), instead of a constant 30 FPS . This can potentially reduce the filesize because only a fraction of the frames are encoded and stored (you can think of it as less bitrate required to keep a minimum level "quality" for frames, because a given bitrate isn't "spread" over as many frames)

Vegas cannot handle this type of VFR video, it converts it to CFR based on approximate time codes (It fills those lower fps sections with duplicate frames ) . And it certainly can't export VFR video

You can try videoredo beta, tmpgenc smart renderer, solveigmm video splitter

VFR video can be difficult to edit in many programs. Often you get sync issues, messed up timecodes. Personally, I would record at CFR, higher bitrates, then re-encode to VFR lower bitrates after editing for final delivery . But many devices have problems with VFR as well , so it also depends on what the target is or how it's going to be played

[Lukis]

Allright thank you, that seems pretty helpful.
I am not sure, if VFR is the key to that, since what I am recording is streaming video almost without any static sections. I would more likely conclude on the fact, that recoding the video is the problem as you said before.

Can you just do one more think for me. This is the MediaInfo of my Vegas output, so If you check it, whether there is no setting, that would make the difference and more importantly if you think, that this is the format and codec, that would deliver me the best result, or if you think I should try other.

Thank you very much for your help.

Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 2.08 GiB
Duration : 5h 16mn
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 940 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2013-04-01 00:45:00
Tagged date : UTC 2013-04-01 00:45:00

Video
ID : 2
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 5h 16mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 809 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 2 000 Kbps
Width : 948 pixels
Original width : 960 pixels
Height : 564 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 1.681
Original display aspect ratio : 1.702
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 15.000 fps
Original frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.101
Stream size : 1.79 GiB (86%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2013-04-01 00:45:00
Tagged date : UTC 2013-04-01 00:45:00

[poisondeathray]

Vegas' h.264/AVC choices (Mainconcept/Rovi or Sony AVC) will never be as good as x264 (using decent settings) at the same bitrates. The difference becomes larger, the lower the bitrate range

Double check your settings in that last video, because the FPS is 15 (check the motion in the video)

[Lukis]

Well,
I noted the 15 fps information, but I think it must be some kind of mistake. The video plays perfectly smooth. The thing might be, that when rendering in Vegas, I have ticked checkbox "Adjust frame rate by source".

Is there any way, how to get x264 into Vegas (or isn't it the x264vfw, that I mentioned in firt post, that I have downloaded and now it is under "Video for Windows" in Vegas). Or (if possible) can you advise those "decent settings" or maybe just show me some direction to go and learn myself.

Thanks

[smrpix]

Are these the same video? You've picked up more than two hours in running time.

[poisondeathray]

You can check in vegas what decoder is being used; right click the file for more information, I think it's the last tab. Likely it will be the mainconcept . It won't be Video for Windows in vegas, unless it's AVI container. "MP4" container doesn't fall under VFW

Start with the presets and tunings, but for content with similar frames, increasing the b-frames, using b-adapt 2 will help compression . In general , the higher the presets, the slower the encoding , the better the compression ratio . But there is great diminishing returns . For example, It might be 10x slower but 1-2% smaller for the same level of quality compared to anohter set of faster settings. You can customize the settings according to the type of content. For example, you would use different settings for a smooth animation compared to a film.

Are these the same video? You've picked up more than two hours in running time.

Yes - and that supports the 30fps vs 15fps observation . Mediainfo has known to make mistakes, but that is very suspicous

[Lukis]

Allright thank you.

I might make it a little bit confusing with those video and codecs.

1, The MediaInfo I posted as the first one, was video straight from Debut Video Capture.

2, The second MediaInfo I posted was exported from vegas under setting I wrote in the first post (Sony AVC) - it was not the same video as the "straight-from-debut-video", but it used absolutely the same preset I use for rendering.

3, none of those was rendered using x264vfw codec, that I downloaded. I tryed to export some with that (it is AVI container), but the result was hilarious... either filesizes like 8GB for 5 hour (using the Ratefactor of 28 - just like it is set in Debut) video or desperate quality (using bitrate around 500kbps, like the videos from Debut are)... either way I am so far better staying with Sony AVC with about 2GB per 5 hours).

[Lukis]

Are these the same video? You've picked up more than two hours in running time.

No those MediaInfos was of a different videos, but I am talking more likely about size per hour, rather than just size.

I know, you might say, that different videos means different content and so different compression circumstances, but I can promis, that those clips are regarding this absolutely identical.

[poisondeathray]

The quality should drop a little at the same bitrate, when you re-encode it with x264 - it shouldn't be a "hilarious" difference . That suggests something else is going on

What do you mean by "desparate quality" specifically ? Macroblocking, fuzzy lines, different color (levels issue? ) . Post a screenshot of before/after at least

Are you sure Sony isn't adding more frames, and that your source video doens't have low FPS sections?

Maybe posting a typical capture will help provide more info

[_Al_]

Say you want 2GB and video is 6hours, 2GB=16777216 kilobits, time is 21600 seconds
16777216/21600=770kilobits/sec
In Vegas or x264vfw you go with 2pass, average bitrate 770kbps

So NOW is the moment you CAN crank up settings, you can go set "slow" and such presets in x264, nothing much you can choose in Vegas really, and get quality a bit better for that bitrate.


Or I'd recommend this workflow, encode with CRF 18 (x264) about 10-20 sec of video just to see what bitrate the video wants using bitrate viewer, then adjust your real desire knowing already if I go with this or that bitrate it will be not enough or too much etc. Screen capture sometimes can be really hard for guessing bitrate. Original size for your video has NOTHING to do with your encoding. It is like saying let's build house and make it all blue. It is just a label, something in our head, but with no meaning to builders. Encoder does not even know what bitrate has a video that is encoding, all it can see is uncompressed bitrate and that is the same for any video in particular resolution and frame rate it loads.

[Lukis]

Sorry for a little delay guys, but tomorrow I have an exam, so I have to study . So please do not turn around, I will be back soon to solve it with you. I am setting up a test as well. I will take one same video and try to export it with various setting and with just joining it in Solveigmm Splitter... so after I am done, I will give you all that will be needed.
Thanks for understanding

[Lukis]

Hello, I am back with result.
I have 5 screenshots of video quality with 5 screenshots of render settings plus I will write info about the size.
I have added it here, but the server messed up the order and did not show filenames, so there it is with filenames and in correct order on google docs: https://drive.google.com/a/fotolukis.cz/folderview?id=0Bw6pZoj-Lxk0TnlwWWE0VDZYTzg&usp=sharing .

original - 107MB
AVC - 1mbps (profile high) - 244 MB
AVC - 1mbps (profile main) - 244 MB
AVC - 2mbps (profile main) - 419 MB
x264vfw - 510kbps - 524 MB MB
x264vfw - CRF 28 - 474 MB

I discovered, that the "hilarious drop in quality" was not present now (maybe because I rendered it with "ultrafast" setting before vs. now with the slowest one).

But there is still a color desaturation when using x264 event if I "keep it in original colorspace".

[_Al_]

What picture belongs to what settings?

as for x264vfw, ABR is not good, encode 1pass CRF 18 and to "Extra command line" try to add:
--vbv-bufsize 800 --vbv-maxrate 500

if that is not right, go with 2pass 510 kbps average (if 510 is the average you want)


as for color space, Vegas might do things like that, I cannot see what options are there for color space, ..., is there something with (0,255) ?, expand it back

also profile should be 4:2:0

[poisondeathray]

Those screenshots show more than just levels issue...

Another option is debugmode frameserver => x264 or some gui like megui, ripbot, staxrip etc...

[Lukis]

for _AI_:
Sorry for the mess in those pictures, but this server is the cause ... hope you find the link to google docs.

I tried CRF 18 with those commands, but that ended up in quality like other videos, while size went slightly up to 509 MB.

The other option I chose "Multipass - 1st pass" with 510 kbps (there was no option saying 2pass, so I assumed that one... other Multipass options were: 1st pass (fast) and Nth pass) gave me 410 MB but video track was just pure black

for poisondeathray:
what problems exactly you mean? and of course, thank you for suggestion

[poisondeathray]

for poisondeathray:
what problems exactly you mean? and of course, thank you for suggestion

I was sort of replying to _Al_

The most common vegas issues are studio RGB vs. computer RGB. 16-235 vs. 0-255 issues. Those are levels issues. Either fixing the levels with a "PC" matrix in avisynth, or using computer to studio RGB (or vice-versa) preset in vegas. Your screenshots demonstrate more than that - cannot be fixed by adjusting levels only, so there is something else wrong. I suspect the problem is with handing off to x264, something is messed up with your vegas version or configuration.

Debugmode frameserver works with vegas as another option. Since it frameserves RGB from the timeline, and you control the conversion to YUV with avisynth, it should work fine

[_Al_]

1pass CRF 18 and to "Extra command line" try to add: --vbv-bufsize 800 --vbv-maxrate 500

I tried CRF 18 with those commands, but that ended up in quality like other videos, while size went slightly up to 509 MB.

you can always lower those values, like:
--vbv-bufsize 600 --vbv-maxrate 420

debugmode frame server is a method to encode video from Vegas timeline directly but in x264 encoder or some x264 frontends that use x264 (ripbot264, megui), this way you are avoiding x264vfw and encoding directly with x264, there are people who make x264vfw work but some can have problems
install dmfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGoavkSRY2U
avisynth basics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT_aBWHxFJ4

in that last tutorial you can use signpost.avi from dmfs instead of that Krtek's video.avi and you can play your Vegas timeline through Avisynth with MPC-HC or you can put it into encoder to encode video directly from Vegas.
Vegas-dmfs export-you load that avi into Avisynth - you load that avs script into x264 encoder