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  1. OMG dam shoot me guys, i resurrected a 1 year old thread.

    Apologies, i neglected to look at the publishing date of the thread, my Bad

    Anyway.......

    Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    glenpinn is talking about web viewing trying to have smooth playback, so advice about longer shutter speeds or using ND filter are valid if there is planning for the future, but to bring this old TV picture and old stuff is really not necessary ...
    Youtube supports 50p/60p for some time now.
    Yes youtube uploads 50p video, but you cannot watch it in 50p unless you use specific browsers like Chrome.

    Youtube re-converts 50p video to 25p at a very low bitrate, and that is what gets played in firefox unfortunately, and even my Vimeo Pro account will not give me 50p playback, and they told me last week that they have no plans to offer 50p playback in the next year or so, if ever, because of the cost, so in their forum they have a lot of very disgruntled customers who are going to abandon them, like i should do as well, because in this day and age, we should have 50p support everywhere, and i pay for my Vimeo Pro account.

    Unfortunately youtube dont do Pro accounts like Vimeo where you can create nice portfolios to put specific videos into, and then share the videos via the portfolio link, and this will be the only reason why i will keep my pro account, plus the fact that anyone who sees my videos can download the original uploaded source file, in youtube you cant, so all the 100+ videos in my Vimeo channel are all 720/50p @ 13Mbps because those are still awesome quality videos, and not many people download them anyway, but viewing 720/50p at their 2.5Mbps 720/25p is a tragedy, same with Firefox.

    I will also point out that every single 1080/50p avchd video i shoot gets edited, titles/credits added, and is smart rendered to an mp4 container using VRD Pro so i lose nothing from the original camera file, that is my archive copy, and if i needed a copy at 1080/25p or 720/50p i do those from the 1080/50p mp4 file, and i also retain those as well.

    Every 1080/50p file i have now has a 720/50p copy in another folder, and those are what i use for Vimeo and Youtube because it is not worth my time or effort to upload the original 1080/50p videos.
    Last edited by glenpinn; 21st Jan 2015 at 18:01.
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  2. Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    [Of course it looks horrible. HD downsized to SD always looks that way unless some very specific and tricky downsizing procedures are used. DVD is almost always interlaced, telecined, or encoded as interlaced. Many encoders won't even allow encoding DVD as 25p without issuing warnings, or will enforce encoding progressive as interlaced, and some authoring programs won't accept 25p DVD. Even BluRay for SD at 25p is out of spec.

    If you do this for others, I hope they don't pay you for it.
    Screenshots from a TMPGE 25i frame and VRD 25p frame

    https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ce1n4mrrfe9mwdu/AAAHOKEE9STU_Qo-P8xycIUba

    As for 25p in Dvd Authoring, VRD does it, TMPGE does it, and after looking at a few of my short mpeg2 clips done to both 25i and 25p from my 1080/50p mp4 files, where there is panning, i think i change my mind on accepting the jerkiness of the 25p conversion, but in anything where there is very limited panning, i still much prefer the 25p.

    As for charging, well why would i, the video that i shoot for other people in 1080/50p is edited, titles added, and smart rendered back to 1080/50p mp4, and some people can play those directly thru their HD tv via usb, or they may have a Hdd media player or whatever that supports them, but many dont have 1080/50p support, or not even a full HD tv (standard HD 1366x768) so i also give them a copy in 720/50p mp4 which they have no problems with, and they retain the smoothness of the 50fps.

    in a few cases, these people have friends or family members who still have an older 1366x768 HD tv and still have their Dvd player, and still record tv onto that player, and still watch Dvd movies, and my 80 year old parents are no exception, so for these people to watch that video, i just dump a copy of the video to mpeg2 and author it to a Dvd for them, and yes its not the best, but there is no other option, but i dont charge for the Dvd, i just give them as many copies as they need on Dvd as part of what i charge them for the video shoot, if i didnt do it, they would take their 1080/50p file to someone else to do it, and not do it any better.

    Also, i have never had to dump any 1080p or even 720p video onto Bluray for anyone, everyone that i know and where i live dont have bluray players, they just play their videos from a usb drive either directly thru their HD tv, or via an external media player via hdmi, and many still have Dvd players/recorders to watch movies on, and there is nothing wrong with watching a commercial Dvd movie on a HD tv, and that is why they wont move to bluray.
    Last edited by glenpinn; 21st Jan 2015 at 19:31.
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  3. Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    So, anybody know of some software that can create convincing, proportional, directional motion blur?
    QTGMC?
    I haven't messed around with motion blur options much.

    Copied from the QTGMC help file and modified for progressive mode:

    QTGMC( InputType=1, ShutterBlur=1, ShutterAngleSrc=30, ShutterAngleOut=180 ) # Smooth single-rate output, when input has little blur

    QTGMC( InputType=1, ShutterBlur=1, ShutterAngleSrc=180, ShutterAngleOut=180 ) # Keep "film" look on single-rate output, "film" input

    QTGMC( InputType=1, ShutterBlur=2, ShutterAngleSrc=180, ShutterAngleOut=180, SBlurLimit=8 ) # Same but srongly reduce blur "bleeding"
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  4. Banned
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    Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    OMG dam shoot me guys, i resurrected a 1 year old thread.

    Apologies, i neglected to look at the publishing date of the thread, my Bad

    Anyway.......

    Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    glenpinn is talking about web viewing trying to have smooth playback, so advice about longer shutter speeds or using ND filter are valid if there is planning for the future, but to bring this old TV picture and old stuff is really not necessary ...
    Youtube supports 50p/60p for some time now.
    Yes youtube uploads 50p video, but you cannot watch it in 50p unless you use specific browsers like Chrome.

    Youtube re-converts 50p video to 25p at a very low bitrate, and that is what gets played in firefox unfortunately, and even my Vimeo Pro account will not give me 50p playback, and they told me last week that they have no plans to offer 50p playback in the next year or so, if ever, because of the cost, so in their forum they have a lot of very disgruntled customers who are going to abandon them, like i should do as well, because in this day and age, we should have 50p support everywhere, and i pay for my Vimeo Pro account.

    Unfortunately youtube dont do Pro accounts like Vimeo where you can create nice portfolios to put specific videos into, and then share the videos via the portfolio link, and this will be the only reason why i will keep my pro account, plus the fact that anyone who sees my videos can download the original uploaded source file, in youtube you cant, so all the 100+ videos in my Vimeo channel are all 720/50p @ 13Mbps because those are still awesome quality videos, and not many people download them anyway, but viewing 720/50p at their 2.5Mbps 720/25p is a tragedy, same with Firefox.

    I will also point out that every single 1080/50p avchd video i shoot gets edited, titles/credits added, and is smart rendered to an mp4 container using VRD Pro so i lose nothing from the original camera file, that is my archive copy, and if i needed a copy at 1080/25p or 720/50p i do those from the 1080/50p mp4 file, and i also retain those as well.

    Every 1080/50p file i have now has a 720/50p copy in another folder, and those are what i use for Vimeo and Youtube because it is not worth my time or effort to upload the original 1080/50p videos.
    So basically you are trying to discourage people from uploading 50p/60p content.

    I know, we should have never left the interlaced SD world, all this demand for progress is just foolishness.

    Are you going to stick to your guns in 5 years when everyone and the kitchen sink will upload 50p/60p content?
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  5. Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    So basically you are trying to discourage people from uploading 50p/60p content.

    I know, we should have never left the interlaced SD world, all this demand for progress is just foolishness.

    Are you going to stick to your guns in 5 years when everyone and the kitchen sink will upload 50p/60p content?
    What on earth are you talking about ?????

    how can you derive that comment from what i said before ????

    Read what i typed again why dont you.

    I said i upload my content in 50p, but not 1080/50, only 720/50p because 720/50p in youtube looks great as it is, even re-converted to a pidly 2.5Mbps, afterall it is just for streaming on the internet, and i wont waste all that time and effort uploading 1080/50p especially in youtube because people cant download it anyway, and even if they could, a lot of people will not spend hours downloading a 4gb video file, so i do them in 720/50p so those who use chrome at least can watch 50p video smoothly.

    90% of my video is shot using a hand held rig, so there is always movement and panning around, so, unfortunately in Vimeo and firefox, they only play the videos in 25p mode so it is jerky in some scenes, and it is intolerable to watch.

    as i said, i upload 720/50p into my vimeo pro channel so people can download that file, not the re-converted 720/25p file that Vimeo creates.

    My aim is to eventually have a copy of all my 100+ 720/50p vimeo files in youtube as well, and because youtube will not offer the source file to download, anyone who wants the 50p version will be linked to the vimeo portfolio that houses that file to download it, or i will add the link to download the original 1080/50p mp4 or the 720/50p mp4 from my new Dropbox pro account once i have them all uploaded within the next 6 months or so.

    EDIT: off topic, but the Devs at VRD just informed us that as of the new version 5, Beta 722 build, they can now offer 25i to 50p conversions.
    Last edited by glenpinn; 21st Jan 2015 at 20:13.
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  6. Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    ......because in this day and age, we should have 50p support everywhere, and i pay for my Vimeo Pro account.
    Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    So basically you are trying to discourage people from uploading 50p/60p content.

    I know, we should have never left the interlaced SD world, all this demand for progress is just foolishness.

    Are you going to stick to your guns in 5 years when everyone and the kitchen sink will upload 50p/60p content?
    How odd. Did you read glenpinn's post?
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  7. Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    How odd. Did you read glenpinn's post?
    I just banged my head on my desk before after reading his comment, so i wont bother entertaining him any more.

    I have been advocating 50p video for a long time, i shoot video in 1080/50p mode, even if i use a tripod with a fluid head, because i want my video as smooth as i can get it, and i refuse to shoot video at anything under 50p, yet i still get people who bag me out and tell me there is no point in it, like i just tell them to put their head back in the bucket, because that is the biggest load of crap i ever heard.

    I am ready to move to 4k, but i cannot find a 4k camera in the price range that i have that does 4k in 50p mode, and many of them lose the OIS when going from 1080/50p to 4k even if they shoot in 50p mode at 4k.

    Losing the OIS is not a deal breaker but it means i will have to change my shooting style in 4k mode and use a tripod and fluid head a lot more rather than use my hand rig, and in hand held mode i need the OIS switched on, when using the tripod, i turn it off, but limiting 4k to shooting from a tripod will be difficult, but i wont be shooting 4k in 25p thats for sure.
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  8. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    50p, 25p, 25i - they ALL have good points & bad points.

    25p has jerky motion (or strong motion blur), but it is more "compressible".
    25i has interlacing artifacts, is on the wane for support, but it is very compatible with legacy equipment and has decent motion for its rate.
    50p is the best quality-wise and is the benchmark where future support is headed, but isn't fully compatible with some (most?) current equipment (not counting PCs). And also by being the most data is the largest (given similar bitrates/pixel/frame).

    Everything is a trade-off.

    That's why my suggestion of interlaced - it seemed to fit the bill as well as any of the other incomplete answers.

    Note: going to interlace from the higher/double rate progressive will always encounter LOSS, but it doesn't have to be a crappy conversion (which is what glenpinn seems to be suggesting).

    Example: Here is some material that I shot this last year. Includes a 5 sec clip in UTvideo YUV 4:2:0 lossless format, cut from an RGB Lagarith edit master upconverted from AVC cam original. Pardon the noise due to as-yet-unprocessed low light (higher gain/ISO) recording. I've got the 720p60 HD version and a 480i30 SD downsampled version. The 480 exhibits standard interlacing artifacts, but retains much of the original's smoothness of motion, etc.

    Scott
    Image Attached Files
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 22nd Jan 2015 at 03:24.
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  9. I'd be surprised if most recent (last 3 or 4 years) media playing devices didn't support 720p/60 as it's covered by Level 4.1
    Every player in this house will play it. 1080p/60, not so much. I haven't tried to test that though.

    Maybe ironically, as I dislike interlacing in principle and the artefacts annoy me in practice, if I'm converting old DVDs and they're not interlaced, I find myself disappointed because I can't run them by QTGMC for 50fps. For older, interlaced DVD video the QTGMC re-encode looks better than the source on my TV every time, but I don't have much experience with higher quality/definition interlaced video.

    The whole concept of 4k doesn't excite me much. Very little video seems to take full advantage of 1080p in respect to picture detail, so I'm not sure why 4k would look better. Maybe when everything's shot with digital cameras at 4k......but give me higher frame rates any day.

    Mind you I haven't watched free to air TV in years. Literally. If the end of the world was announced I'd probably be oblivious. Although every so often I wander into the living room and there's some standard definition, overly compressed mpeg2 shite being displayed on the TV in there, and I'm once again grateful for decent quality 720p.

    You'd probably know what I'm referring to glenpinn. I'm in Melbourne. How far away are you?
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  10. Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    I'd be surprised if most recent (last 3 or 4 years) media playing devices didn't support 720p/60 as it's covered by Level 4.1
    Every player in this house will play it. 1080p/60, not so much. I haven't tried to test that though.
    You'd probably know what I'm referring to glenpinn. I'm in Melbourne. How far away are you?
    I have several Western Digital Live media players in my home, 4 to be exact, all connected to all 4 HD tv's.

    3 are 42" led (1366x768) and lounge is 3 year old 55" 1080p and the WD Live players play the 1080/50p videos from my camera (average at 23Mbps) the other 3 tv's we run the 720/50p mp4 and no issues, and regardless what people say, 720/50p @ 12Mbps is dam good quality, especially on the 1366x768 screens, and i wont be upgrading those 3 tv's for a while.

    the lounge tv i might upgrade this year, but i hardly watch tv so not sure its worth it.

    in Hobart btw, pissing with rain right now, and my wife and daughter are in melbourne to visit our son who studies film & television at swinburne uni in hawthorn.

    Cheers
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