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  1. Member
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    Hello Guys!

    I am desperately searching for a good 3CCD HD camcorder which records in HDD/flash memory and with good low light performance!
    I need this camcorder for a lightning videos. 3CCD sensor is needed due to rolling shutter issue with CMOS and 3MOS.


    I found some camcorders by myself:
    • JVC GZ-HD5
    • JVC GZ-HD6
    • Panasonic HDC-SD5 ect.
    But I read, that low light performance is really poor. I am a Sony fanboy, but sadly there is no CCD/3CCD HD camcorders (except those few Pro models which are not an potion).

    Looking forward to Your comments and suggestions.
    Thanks!
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  2. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    the cameras you list may not be available anymore. they are 7-8 years old. if you are going to be outside recording lightning i might look into a gopro hero 3+, it comes with a waterproof housing.
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    "a lot of people are better dead" - prisoner KSC2-303
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    Hi aedipuss. Yeah, I know that all those camcorders are old, but, for me, there is no other options, because now all camcorder manufacturers are switched to CMOS sensors, because they uses less power and have better low light performance.
    The only downside of newer CMOS sensors (maybe there is more than one, but it is not important) are so called rolling shutter and this is the main reason why I am searching camcorder with CCD/3CCD sensor.

    Rolling shutter is a method of image acquisition in which each frame is recorded not from a snapshot of a single point in time, but rather by scanning across the frame either vertically or horizontally. In other words, not all parts of the image are recorded at exactly the same time, even though the whole frame is displayed at the same time during playback. This produces predictable distortions of fast-moving objects or when the sensor captures rapid flashes of light. This is in contrast with global shutter in which the entire frame is exposed for the same time window.

    Sadly Your suggested GoPro Hero3 is based on CMOS. But thanks anyway!
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  4. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    have you seen a nice picture of a lightning bolt recently? the cameras all use cmos sensors. nikon, canon, etc.
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  5. Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    have you seen a nice picture of a lightning bolt recently? the cameras all use cmos sensors. nikon, canon, etc.
    have to agree with this, maybe try and borrow a 3MOS HD camera and give it a try.
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  6. The last consumer camera/camcorder that used a CCD sensor was the Panasonic FZ48. (All the newer models in that 'superzoom' range have CMOS sensors).So that is likely to be the easiest to still find available. I have one of those, and also an earlier Panasonic SD5.
    The FZ48 is better in low light- -but still not that great!


    But I too dislike CMOS rolling shutters (they just make footage either look comical , or, at best, like the whole thing is filmed with the camera mounted in jellow) - so I put up with the low light shortcomings.


    The last decent prosumer camcorder with a 3 x CCD sensor was the Panasonic HMC-AG150 (or 151 for the PAL version) ... and that is good in low light.


    About 5 years old now, so should be available at a reasonable price these days..... and it is a card camera, so no worn tape transport to worry about!
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  7. Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    But I too dislike CMOS rolling shutters (they just make footage either look comical , or, at best, like the whole thing is filmed with the camera mounted in jellow) - so I put up with the low light shortcomings.
    what on earth are you talking about ?

    it seems you have not had much experience with newer model HD camcorders.
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  8. Newer cameras are better?..... that's good news. They couldn't really have been any worse!

    As long as folk like you are quite happy using rolling shutters, they'll keep on selling them ( they're cheaper to make!).


    Of course, the fact that many top of the range professional camcorders still use CCDs is just one of those things?...
    ...and it would seem as if there is really no need for any more research into bringing global CMOS shutters to the commercial market place then?......after all, if the newer CMOS rolling shutters are 'OK', then why bother?...
    Last edited by pippas; 13th Jan 2014 at 20:40.
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  9. Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Newer cameras are better?..... that's good news. They couldn't really have been any worse!

    As long as folk like you are quite happy using rolling shutters, they'll keep on selling them ( they're cheaper to make!).
    i think you are "over reacting" on all this stuff, and all i did was question you about your comment that i highlited in bold text, because the comment seemed somewhat strange to me.

    we are not talking about professional video cameras here, this is all about consumer grade, but i see absolutely nothing wrong with the 3MOS sensors in my 2c HDC-SDT750 cams, or my AG-AC90 camera, which are used for shooting wedding, amongst other things, and i see no point in buying anything more than the AC90 for this type of work, not just yet anyway.

    also remember that it appears that the OP is looking at getting an older 3CCD camera (mini dv type)
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  10. Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Newer cameras are better?..... that's good news. They couldn't really have been any worse!

    As long as folk like you are quite happy using rolling shutters, they'll keep on selling them ( they're cheaper to make!).
    i think you are "over reacting" on all this stuff, and all i did was question you about your comment that i highlited in bold text, because the comment seemed somewhat strange to me.

    we are not talking about professional video cameras here, this is all about consumer grade, but i see absolutely nothing wrong with the 3MOS sensors in my 2c HDC-SDT750 cams, or my AG-AC90 camera, which are used for shooting wedding, amongst other things, and i see no point in buying anything more than the AC90 for this type of work, not just yet anyway.

    also remember that it appears that the OP is looking at getting an older 3CCD camera (mini dv type)
    I can understand the vexation from both the parties; the one who is frustrated with latest cmos and the one who cant understand the criticism against it. After the excitement a panasonic TM-700 camera 4 years back, one thing I was struggling with all this years. all camera movements are highly exaggerated resulting wobbly images and the worst is any panning of the camera results absolutely unusable video. thats not all. if my wife watches any of these footage (which has camera panning) for a few minutes, she develops nausea which stays for days. can you imagine where the greatness of technology has landed us? my old mini-DV camera (2002 camera) had such smooth motion and never was a strain on the eyes. Just today I came to know that its because of the rolling shutter of the latest cmos sensors. this means i need to cut out all portions of my existing footage which has panning and never do any panning while taking future videos. if thats the case, better I take still pictures with my canon eos 550d.
    Now I have two options. Throw the TM700 into the dustbin and then hunt for a 3-ccd HD camera or wait for a few years when we have consumer level HD cameras which has cmos sensor with global shutter.
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  11. Originally Posted by highersoul View Post
    I can understand the vexation from both the parties; the one who is frustrated with latest cmos and the one who cant understand the criticism against it. After the excitement a panasonic TM-700 camera 4 years back, one thing I was struggling with all this years. all camera movements are highly exaggerated resulting wobbly images and the worst is any panning of the camera results absolutely unusable video. thats not all. if my wife watches any of these footage (which has camera panning) for a few minutes, she develops nausea which stays for days. can you imagine where the greatness of technology has landed us? my old mini-DV camera (2002 camera) had such smooth motion and never was a strain on the eyes. Just today I came to know that its because of the rolling shutter of the latest cmos sensors. this means i need to cut out all portions of my existing footage which has panning and never do any panning while taking future videos. if thats the case, better I take still pictures with my canon eos 550d.
    Now I have two options. Throw the TM700 into the dustbin and then hunt for a 3-ccd HD camera or wait for a few years when we have consumer level HD cameras which has cmos sensor with global shutter.
    if you throw that TM700 in the rubbish bin, you are throwing away one of the best all time HD cameras, and it was the camera that many other manufacturers used as a benchmark for newer models into the future, it was the camera that made avchd format cameras what they are today, and i loved mine.

    to me, based on your comments about the unwatchable video in panning scenes from your TM700, just implies to me that you have no idea how to shoot video properly, nor do you understand how to use these new tripple CMOS sensor cameras properly, because they do require a slightly different approach to using them.

    here is the deal, i started my videography days using a philips shoulder mount broadcast quality vhs tape camera, then moved to betacam, then onto the mini dv cameras in 2001 using an NV-GS120, then the NV-GS500, then progressed thru various types of panasonic 3CCD professional broadcast grade DV cams when i started filming weddings.

    the first HD camera i used was the TM700, bypassing HDV because i did not see any advantage at that time to shoot in HDV because i knew AVCHD (h264) was on the horizon so i waited, hence why i waited and bought the TM700.

    you must know how to use these AVCHD type HD cameras m8, they have built in image stabilizing and auto focus systems, but you cannot shoot your video in panning mode moving the camera around fast, you need to do it as steadily as you can, and as slow as it possible, and then you will get perfect jerk free video, and if you dont believe me, i can offer you a short sample video clip to download that i shot using my panasonic SDT750 camera in 1080/50p mode while panning and filming cars driving by me, and it is as smooth as you will ever get it.

    i have no more issues with my HD cams than i ever had with any of my old 3CCD DV cameras, and there is no way on this earth i would ever want to go back to shooting crappy standard def video using those old outdated mini DV tape cameras, your going back to standard def video, and you will never get anywhere near the same quality video from those cameras than you will get from the likes of a TM700, absolutely no way.

    you need to learn how to shoot video properly, and know how to use your camera, thats the bottom line here in my opinion.

    also, if you shoot video in hand held mode, you should be shooting 1080/50p (pal) or 1080/60p (ntsc) to eliminate jerkiness in your video, and if you dont understand why i say this, you need to go and research the difference between 25p & 50p (or 30p & 60p) then you may understand this a bit more.

    there is no way i will ever shoot my videos in an any other format than 1080/50p mode.
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  12. Originally Posted by highersoul View Post

    Now I have two options. Throw the TM700 into the dustbin and then hunt for a 3-ccd HD camera or wait for a few years when we have consumer level HD cameras which has cmos sensor with global shutter.
    As you will deduce from glennpin's response, some folk are quite happy to 'deal with' the shortcomings of rolling shutters, and find alternative shooting techniques to hide their deficiencies.
    For many people, that approach works well - especially where the 'wow' factor of the extra resolution of HD footage tends to override the more undesirable affects of rolling shutters.
    For those of us who find the rolling shutter effects annoying ('leaning' verticals on pans - the 'jellow'* effect in high vibration (sport) situations - 'flashbanding' effect where strobe lights ,or photoflashs, are being used) - then HD camcorders with CCD sensors are still a preferred choice.

    *(In an earlier post glennpin asked 'what on earth I was talking about' when I mentioned the 'jellow' effect.
    THIS VIDEO illustrates the problem well. Sorry if that's seen as 'overreacting'!)

    These days it's not easy to find a consumer/prosumer HD camcorder with a CCD sensor.
    Obviously, the 'top of the range' broadcast type camcorders still use them - especially where the use of CMOS sensors is not acceptable - but AFAIK, the only current HD consumer camcorder model still available with a CCD sensor is the Panasonic DMC LZ30, which is a bridge camera, rather than a 'pure' camcorder. It is capable of shooting very reasonable HD video footage though. And without any rolling shutter defects of course.

    Until a 'global shutter' CMOS camcorder becomes available (still some way off - especially at a 'consumer' level I would think?) your choices are very limited, if you want to avoid rolling shutter effects.

    For some folk, these effects are not of any real importance. For others, they are.......
    Last edited by pippas; 9th Feb 2014 at 20:29.
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  13. Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    As you will deduce from glennpin's response, some folk are quite happy to 'deal with' the shortcomings of rolling shutters, and find alternative shooting techniques to hide their deficiencies.
    i dont have to "deal" with the supposed shortcomings of CMOS sensor cameras by changing or finding alternative shooting methods to eleviate these supposed issues from CMOS sensor cams that you guys seem to be so fixated on, these new cameras have features built into them to help them overcome these supposed issues, and people need to come to terms with this new technology, learn how to use it, and learn how to shoot video properly, unlike the person who shot that video in the youtube link you posted.

    regarding that video, it was shot using 2 cameras that were produced about 7 to 8 years ago, so that in itself holds absolutely no credibility for me, and secondly, the guy clearly mounted his 2 cameras onto a boat and a golf cart just to show this "jellow" effect from the single CMOS sensor canon camera, as opposed to the video from the 3CCD panasonic camera, and nobody in their right mind would mount any camera directly to any moving or shaking object, especially a boat or a golf buggy, it is just plain stupid, and shows a massive lack of camera skills by the person shooting the video.

    the only thing i will agree with you in that video is that the panasonic camera shows better video while attached to the boat, however, what about the crappy shaky video from both cameras when mounted on the golf buggy, that just makes no sense at all, both cameras clearly show shaking/jerkiness in the video, so neither camera wins that one.

    if the OP wants to stick with 3CCD camera system, maybe the SD5 is probably the one to buy if you can find one, at least it shoots full HD avchd onto an SD card, and it has some kind of optical image stabilization on it, however it will not be as good as modern day stabilization systems are.

    the point i was trying to make to the OP was that he should consider moving on from these old cameras and upgrade to the newer breed of full HD avchd cameras and learn how to use them properly, and learn how to shoot video properly, which is the best way to eleviate all these types of issues.

    good luck guys, we live in the year 2014, bout time you come to grips with new technology, learn how to use it, and learn how to shoot proper video using the right equipment.
    Last edited by glenpinn; 9th Feb 2014 at 23:44.
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  14. As I mentioned in my earlier posts...if you (and many other folk!) are happy with the results that rolling shutter camcorders produce for your particular style of shooting, then go for it!.... we know that you don't have a problem. You carry on shooting your 'proper video'.....

    For those of us that do have a problem with rolling shutter artifacts when shooting specific types of footage, then until a global shutter CMOS sensor becomes available, we still have to use CCD camcorders for the present.

    The FZ30 I mentioned is (AFAIK) the only current consumer CCD camcorder on the market.. So, if highersoul needs to change his TM700 that might be an alternative model for his consideration? As you mention, there are older models that may also serve his purpose as well.

    As it is only certain types of video shooting that are significantly affected (fast pans, high vibration, strobe or flash photography) it could well be that many people are never affected. You have shown that you have no need for a CCD camcorder, for example...

    But please have the courtesy to accept that other folk may have different requirements......using a 'new breed' of camcorder doesn't necessarily mean 'better' by default in all situations.....
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  15. ..
    Last edited by smrpix; 10th Feb 2014 at 11:01.
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  16. Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    pippas, maybe you should go into a good electronics store and try out some of the newer models. The rolling shutter issue is vastly improved compared to even a couple of years ago. On the other hand, if your needs are so specific, maybe you need to move beyond consumer gear.
    Thanks for the suggestion. I don't actually need to look for a new camcorder at present... and I can still find a CCD camcorder if I need to! But good the hear the results have improved.

    Only yesterday, I was watching a broadcast item on TV with an aviation theme, and it had clearly been shot on a camcorder with a CMOS sensor. The 'bendy' distortion of some rotating propeller blades were comical!
    So it's not always quite there for that sort of footage yet...
    Regarding looking towards higher quality kit... I'm waiting for the secondhand price of the Panasonic AG HMC151E to fall to less than £1000.
    Unfortunately, even though it's a 5 year old model, the prices are still high..... probably because it uses good size CCDs. So no rolling shutter, and good in low light..... (Newer CMOS sensor models from the same prosumer 'stable' are already cheaper secondhand!)
    Last edited by pippas; 11th Feb 2014 at 04:08.
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  17. Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    But please have the courtesy to accept that other folk may have different requirements......using a 'new breed' of camcorder doesn't necessarily mean 'better' by default in all situations.....
    i do accept what you are trying to put forward, but you also need to stop over reacting to all this rolling shutter stuff when there are means and ways of over coming this issue, something that i personally have never seen in any of my videos, probably because i use my cameras the way they were designed to be used, and i dont do stupid things like mounting my cameras on objects that are going to have any movement or vibration thru them, that is pure stupidity on the part of the camera operator, and that is why i laughed at that youtube video clip you posted up earlier because the cameras were quite old models and the video was shot in 2007, and the guy clearly had no idea what he was doing, both cameras were affected and both had issues during those tests, as would any other type of camera that you attached to the boat or golf buggy.

    if you are spotting roller shutter issues in broadcast video on tv, then the problem may well be that the camera operator is not shooting his video correctly, did you ever consider that ?

    also, you mentioned the FZ30 camera (made in 2005) in one post (may have been a typo error) but in another you mentioned LZ30 which was bought out last year i believe, and it uses a single CCD sensor that restricts it to shooting only 1280x720 video @ 25p or 30p in motion j-peg format, so i would count that one out, especially if you cant handle shooting video with a DSLR type photo camera.

    if he wants full HD avchd then clearly the SD5 (as a traditional camcorder) would be his best bet so far.

    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Regarding looking towards higher quality kit... I'm waiting for the secondhand price of the Panasonic AG HMC151E to fall to less than £1000...........Unfortunately, even though it's a 5 year old model
    nice camera for its time, but the CCD sensor is a wee bit small, shoots 1080/50i (60i) and 1080/25p (30p) which is recorded as a 1080/50i stream, but better still it actually shoots 720/25p (30p) and even much better it shoots 720/50p (60p) all progressive, and at 24Mbps, so the 720/50p mode would most definately suit my shooting needs, as i refuse to shoot anything in 25p or 50i mode, but the camera is a bit too big for my liking and for the type of roaming video i shoot (i mostly shoot my video using a custom made hand held rig, or my own modified monopod with a Velbon camera head, so i need a camera smaller than this type for portability.
    Last edited by glenpinn; 10th Feb 2014 at 18:24.
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  18. Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    ....but you also need to stop over reacting to all this rolling shutter stuff .....
    Thank you again for your advice....
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  19. Realize this is a moderately old thread, but wanted to throw in a couple of suggestions in case others come along looking for similar info (registered just to post, found this thread by way of searching myself, so there may be others). I don't shoot lightning but I also have some specific applications where rolling shutter breaks things. Experience with all of these listed. They are all also nearly dirt cheap used.



    Panasonic HDC-SD9
    flash - 3ccd HD (1/6" iirc), shoots 24p in addiction to 60i - one of the very few consumer 3ccd camcorders that shot a progressive image in addition to 60i. Found one not too long ago on Ebay for $75, which I use with a nu-view 3d adapter to shoot full HD 3d. In addition to a wobble shutter breaking the 3d effect created by the nu-view, it also breaks the scan the nu view uses to sync the 2 views.

    (love 3d and love this thing.. it's mainly a gimmick for me, primarily use it for baby/kids videos in 3d. grandparents had film, parents had polaroid and video cameras, now i've got 3d - good stuff)



    Canon XL2
    tape / minidv - 3ccd SD (1/3") but also shoots real progressive frames which uprez to 720p extremely cleanly. For the bulk of what I shoot, this is still my goto camera, even now in 2014 (also have an XL1 and 1s backing it up - but wouldn't recommend those for the OP purpose - frame mode isn't anywhere close XL2 progressive image)



    *honorable mention*

    JVC GY HD1 or HD10
    tape / hdv - 720p HD, not a great camera (for a professional looking camera, has almost no manual control and very much a pain to shoot with) but will make a great image if both the stars align just right and the ye olde gods decide 'eh, why not'. Lots of reviews will complain about the low light performance but nearly all of that comes down to trying to force manual options with low light (pretty standard stuff - just not with this camera). It's actually quite good in low light if you just leave it alone and let it sort itself out. I can see it working well with lightning.




    OT: I also shoot with a fully tricked out sony dslr rig. It's nice but it's very purpose specific and not at all useful for ligntning. As mentioned earlier, there are more caveats when shooting with newer cmos cameras than older ccd cameras. Shooting with cmos is a lot more like shooting with actual motion film than it is traditional video (ccd-era), which I think where there is a bit of a breakdown earlier in the thread. CMOS works for 93% of circumstances, but it is far less forgiving, requires more discipline and absolutely doesn't work for all applications.

    Good luck!
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  20. Thank you drmeatball124 for the suggestion on Panasonic HDC-SD9. Just to recall, I have a Panasonic TM700 and wants to replace it with a 3-ccd HD for a few years till CMOS with global shutter is available affordably. Just one question....Does the 24P of SD9 create 'strobe' issues compared to the 60P of TM700? In other words, while the rolling shutter issues of TM700 is avoided by switching to a camcorder with 3-CCD, the degradation of resolution (probably strobe) due to downgrading from Full HD 60p of TM700 to 24p of SD9 is more than the benefits?
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  21. The SD9 was the first Panasonic 3 ccd HD consumer camcorder to include a progressive shooting mode. But it was 24p only, and it required you to shoot in 'Digial Cinema' color mode. You couldn't switch that off ( see here for more details on this : http://camcorders.reviewed.com/content/panasonic-hdc-sd9-camcorder-review-34650 )

    I use the earlier SD5 model, which shoots only interlaced footage. My best results come from de-interlacing that 1920x1080i footage, and then keeping my edited footage as 1280x720/50p. (60p)

    Drop in resolution obviously, but still looks pretty good, and has the motion 'smoothness' of 50p footage.... and of course no rolling shutter issues!!

    So if the SD9 progressive mode color limitations are a problem, you can still record as 1080i, and de-interlace the footage in your editor, if necessary....
    Last edited by pippas; 28th Sep 2014 at 09:35.
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  22. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by highersoul View Post
    if my wife watches any of these footage (which has camera panning) for a few minutes, she develops nausea which stays for days.
    I think modern image stabilisation techniques (copied from smart phones, but now in camcorders) make this far worse. It's that super smooth / floaty kind of motion, which then jerks and morphs every time it fails. It makes me feel sea sick (and I don't get sea sick!).

    In some scenarios the stabilisation will also try to reduce the rolling shutter, so it is possible for newer camcorders to have subjectively fewer rolling shutter artefacts without any improvement in sensors.

    Also, the VirtualDUB plug-in deshaker has an option to remove rolling shutter artefacts when deshaking. Obviously it's better not to have rolling shutter in the first place, and moving objects which end up looking the wrong shape are unrecoverable, but the general skewing/parallelogram effect when panning can be fixed by these techniques. You can try VirtualDUB deshaker to recover your footage if you want. It can easily make other things worse though.

    FWIW some people just don't notice these artefacts. Some people's eyes/brains seem to process movement very differently from others.

    Cheers,
    David.
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  23. Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
    FWIW some people just don't notice these artefacts. Some people's eyes/brains seem to process movement very differently from others.
    I think that must be true......just as some people don't get seasick, while others do....

    I'm of those who find rolling shutter artifacts.. particularly the rubbery 'jello' effect created by rapid movement of the camera.. really annoying. Others don't, and will then describe any critical comment as an 'over reaction'.

    Here in the UK there was a real time 'minute by minute' account of the 9/11 tragedy broadcast the other evening. Much of the footage had been taken by a variety of amateurs, using their 2001 camcorders. All of which had CCD sensors at that time of course.
    So, although much of the footage would have normally ended up on the cutting room floor, in a regular broadcast edit, the minute by minute real time approach made its use here essential.
    And how refreshing it was... even with all the amateur handheld 'shakiness' ... to see footage without any rolling shutter artifacts.
    Much more watchable than similar footage taken on typical CMOS cameras today would have been.

    Actually told the story in a very powerful and effective way... IMHO of course!..
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    Hello!
    I know this thread is old, but I have the same problem with the rolling shutter artifacts.I bolted a Canon HF11 to my car to shoot a footage on the road, intending to use Deshaker to eliminate the small shaking produced by the engine and the potholes.I used a fast shutter speed 1/400 to avoid motion blur.The result is a mess, a jello effect that cannot be fixed by Deshaker or Rolling Shutter - After Effects.I had excellent results using my old CCD camcorder (Sony DCR-HC45) and Deshaker, but the resolution is small 720x576 and I have to deinterlace the footage.
    Panasonic HDC-SD9 seems the best option, but I read here http://camcorders.reviewed.com/content/panasonic-hdc-sd9-camcorder-review-34650 that it has "subject trailing/ghosting" and "compression artifacts" even at 17Mbps.How bad is that?Can the ghosting be removed by using a faster shutter speed?
    Any suggestions for a Global Shutter camcorder?I see that all the action cameras including GoPro are using CMOS sensor, so that's not an option.And Glidecam HD2000 stabilizer is not an option either.Even if I stabilze the camcorder, the bottom half of each frame will be recorded later than the top half, and during that time the background will change - the car is in motion (100KM/h), recording like the "first-person shooter view" from the PC games.There will be a non-linear mismatch between the top and lower halves of each frame, depending on the car speed.
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  25. The HDC SD9 was the first of the Panasonic HD camcorders to support progressive shooting.... but it was only 24p (or 25p in PAL land ) and only with special 'Digital cinema color' which a lot of folk didn't like.

    I still use the previous model - the SD5 - for anything that has vibration or fast motion - or for shooting things like aircraft propellers (CMOS rolling shutter just makes those look silly) .
    But it does have limitations. It only shoots interlaced footage. I get my best results from converting to an intermediate format, de-interlacing the footage in the conversion. That give me a 50p file which looks pretty smooth, motion wise, and does not of course have any horrible rolling shutter 'jello'. Also works well with Deshaker..

    Be aware that both the SD5 and SD9 only use 1/6" sensors, so do not perform well in low light...
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    Thank you for the reply.For deinterlacing I use QTGMC, is slow but with the best quality.The output I encode with loseless HuffyUV codec.That leads to huge files that will pass through Deshaker and get encoded with x264.If I get a progressive recording that will make the pipeline more simple.
    I can find in my whole country a single SD5, and its owner wants for it the retail price from 8 years ago.For SD9 there are at least 3 offers.
    How happy are you with the image provided by SD5?How bad is that "fast-moving subjects trailing/ghosting"?I suppose that can be fixed with a fast shutter speed.How about "visible compresssion artifacts"?Can you set the shutter speed in SD5's menu?
    Can you provide a raw video from the camera, few seconds long, of a fast moving scene/object in sunlight, to get an idea of the image quality?The reviews claim that the entire Panasonic 3CCD line has small sensors with at most 1.5 Megapixels, not enough for a 1920x1080 image (2 Megapixels).
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  27. All SD5 source clips are interlaced, and different software players handle that with varying degrees of success. Replaying files from within the camera itself and I've never noticed any 'trailing' or 'ghosting'..
    Replaying from WMP seems OK... VLC is not too bad, although you have to set the de-interlace option - and it's not that good a de-interlacer..... MPC-HC is hopeless on my machine.... Virtualdub does not display interlaced .m2ts files very well either.
    So a lot of the 'trailing' and 'ghosting' complaints maybe down to bad players?..

    I don't have a lot of original clips - especially with fast motion - but I have attached a very short clip here which replicates fast motion with fast camera movement. You can perhaps use the stones in the background to check out how well (or not) any 'trailing' and 'ghosting' appears?

    I think you may find quite a difference depending which player you're using.

    As I say, I don't keep a lot of original clips....I normally convert to Grass Valley HQX as an intemediate, and use their de-interlacer and re-sizer to work with 1280x720p intraframe files. Much smaller files than HuffyUV, but still pretty good quality (IMHO).
    You can find a copy of the codec - and the Grass Valley converter utility - on THIS PAGE of my 'Slo-mo' guide. (you won't need any other of the pages for this).

    My second attachment is an mp4 copy of the original clip, which is progressive. I find it plays much better in most players than the original interlaced clip..... And pretty much without any ghosting or trailing on the 'fast moving' stones....

    And yes, you can make manual shutter adjustments....you can find the SD5 manual here: https://www.manualslib.com/download/647563/Panasonic-Hdc-Sd5.html
    Image Attached Files
    Last edited by pippas; 5th Nov 2016 at 15:49. Reason: extra info
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  28. Member
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    Thank you for the footage.I checked a QTGMC - deinterlaced sequence and the quality is exactly what I'm looking for.I found some motion blur but no ghosting or trailing.Unfortunately the EXIF data from the H264 stream is missing and I cannot tell what was the shutter speed (ExposureTime tag).I assume the bitrate was 12Mbps.I guess at 17Mbps the quality will further improve.With your permission I'll attach 2 frames, one with fast motion, another with little motion.Click image for larger version

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    I'll go for SD9.
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  29. Originally Posted by edytibi View Post
    I assume the bitrate was 12Mbps.I guess at 17Mbps the quality will further improve...
    Yes, the footage was recorded at the SD5 max setting..which is HG mode 13Mbps (CBR).

    The SD9 has an 'HA' mode as well - at 17Mbps... but that is VBR. The SD9 has no CBR modes. Even the HG mode for the SD9 is specified as VBR.
    How much difference that makes to the quality, I have no idea.....
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  30. Member
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    I've got the HDC-SD9.After some testing in daylight, 17MBps bitrate and 25p I'm disappointed.The image is simply crap when I put it side-by-side with my old Canon HF11 with CMOS sensor.Wrong exposure, noise, compression artifacts on edges.Even with the Shutter at 1/500 I still have motion blur (HF11 in the same condition has no motion blur).When I simulated the small amplitude high frequency shakes the car makes I've got ghosting and visible compression artifacts.Maybe the shaking was too rough, or not enough light.
    Click image for larger version

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    After passing the material through Deshaker the closest objects still jump slighly up-down on a stable background - maybe a parallax effect (the camera was shaking up-down)?
    On top of that the second-hand camcorder has a damaged display hinge with a flopping display and flickering image on it.
    I shall run some tests with interlaced material (1080i), with 1/1000 shutter, with disabled motion stabilizer, hoping to find some settings with better results.The final test will be with the camera mounted on the car.
    Can you please share some settings?Iris 2.0?Gain 0?Disable Auto-Slow Shutter?
    Last edited by edytibi; 16th Nov 2016 at 14:14.
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