AVT-8710 blowing out highlights with Macrovision tapes

[Brad]

I recently acquired an AVT-8710 and just went to try it with a copy-protected tape, only to find the contrast blooming astronomically. No such problems with the unprotected retail tapes I've played through it.

I started with all of its internal proc amp controls reset, and then did brightness -1 and contrast -7 steps in an attempt to recover the levels. As you can see, this failed:



Without the TBC in the chain, everything is well within limits of the ATI 600's default settings (but the Macrovision causes the driver to garble the video every few seconds).

[DB83]

Of course there are a few variants of mv on VHS. Maybe the AVT can not handle this type.

I guess this is just a test since surely the dvd of this would give you better quality.

[Brad]

Yep just a test. I've tried five protected tapes now, including the one that I was planning on capturing for real, and they all do this.

[JVRaines]

The 8710's automatic gain control is a poor performer. Running freaky old EIAJ tapes I got blasted whites with little contrast. (No such problem going directly into the ADVC110 capture card.) I had to insert a proc amp ahead of the 8710 to smooth out sync and video levels. Macrovision messes with levels, so I'm not surprised it would give the 8710 trouble.

[Brad]

The reason I got it is because people recommend it to remove MV, so you can imagine my displeasure.

[sanlyn]

I usually stick with my Toshiba RS-XS34 or Panny ES15 as pass-thru, which almost always ignores Macrovision on VHS. I've had only one tape that screwed up those pass-thru's, and that one looks bad even when played on TV straight from the VCR. But in other cases when I was using that 8710 a while back, I didn't have the problem described. Instead, I had bad dot crawl thru its s-video outputs, so ended up using composite or not using the AVT at all. The product apparently has QC problems, and it depends on where that copy was purchased. Many fakes are sold on eBay and elsewhere. Mine were from B&H Photo, which gave no argument when I asked to return one that developed bad connectors after a while. The new one worked OK.

[JVRaines]

My 8710 has performed well otherwise, especially considering its low cost. Maybe vaporeon should try exchanging the unit to rule out defective parts. Also, the Canopus (Grass Valley) ADVC110 capture card has a secret switch to disable Macrovision.

[SixFiftyThree]

The product apparently has QC problems, and it depends on where that copy was purchased. Many fakes are sold on eBay and elsewhere. Mine were from B&H Photo, which gave no argument when I asked to return one that developed bad connectors after a while. The new one worked OK.

To my knowledge, yes it does have QC problems but it does not matter where it is purchased - 8710, or CTB-100, or other rebrand (not fake copies) have all had defective units for years. It's a gamble anywhere you buy. The model was updated years ago with a different chip, and the mfr seems to think it is of quality since nothing has changed. Whoever owns one that works as intended, consider yourself lucky, from all reports it was a great TBC.

The last known good model was apparently the green and black AVT-8710, which you could only find 2nd hand now and is rare to come by. I own one of the newer models, and yes it's garbage, it performs poorly as a TBC (freezing/ghosting etc.) and even poorer as a proc amp, given that the proc amp just chooses to do its own thing.

In the past I would've recommended Datavideo TBC-1000,
which I've personally been very satisfied with, but it was quite costly new and is now discontinued. In which case, the best option now I think is the DVD recorder passthrough method you've recommended. Pretty easy to acquire, all Panasonic models from ES10 to ES25 have the same line TBC + frame sync ability so it it is a guaranteed and most affordable option.

[Brad]

I usually stick with my Toshiba RS-XS34 or Panny ES15 as pass-thru, which almost always ignores Macrovision on VHS.

What's your method for determining whether your tapes are protected? I've had the opposite experience with my MV tapes and the DMR-ES15; it inserts new digitally-timed MV pulses in the vertical blanking interval, and also boosts the contrast but not as much as the AVT-8710.

The last known good model was apparently the green and black AVT-8710, which you could only find 2nd hand now and is rare to come by.

This is what I have. I bought it from a guy who was leaving the country and unloading a ton of A/V and computer gear. At least I didn't spend much.

[sanlyn]

I usually stick with my Toshiba RS-XS34 or Panny ES15 as pass-thru, which almost always ignores Macrovision on VHS.

What's your method for determining whether your tapes are protected? I've had the opposite experience with my MV tapes and the DMR-ES15; it inserts new digitally-timed MV pulses in the vertical blanking interval, and also boosts the contrast but not as much as the AVT-8710.

My "method" is to watch what happens during capture. My own ES15 is a recent acquisition, haven used it only for a couple of home made tapes (no MV). I'll have to check that out. The DVD-R's I use were the RD-XS34 and my old ES20, both of which apparently ignored MV on all except the one weirdo tape I mentioned. I'm running out of retail tapes to transfer, will have to look one up in storage to try with the ES15.

My AVT is a greenie from B&H Photo. It's the replacement I mentioned earlier. No cost -- other than the commuter ticket to B&H in Manhattan. I walked up to the front desk with my misbehaving AVT and told the guy "It doesn't work correctly". He asked, "Sorry you're having that problem, sir. Would you like a refund?" I told him I'd like an exchange. He answered, "No problem." He briefly opened the box and took a look, made up a form in his computer, printed it, took my old AVT and told me with a smile that I could pick up a new one at the pickup window. Took about 5 minutes.

[vhelp]

well, in my experience, with commercial tapes, there are three popular signs of mv: color displacment or fading in/out, image curling or taring, and agc distruption or color burnout. the first two are easily correctable.

however, the third one (agc) is not so correctable, if at all. but how badly the results are will depend on what capture equipment or video processor are connected to each other. i use my Galaxy Quest vhs as the guage for this mv since it is very pronounced. i have tried many different equipment scenarios and still haven't been able to fully resolve it for this tape. so, one has to decide if it worth using the ES10/15 and the mv releated agc problems.

[NJRoadfan]

I ran into this problem with my AVT-8710, but it was a very unique case. I have a few Disney cartoon tapes that were dubbed onto Betamax (immune to Macrovision) that were causing the AVT-8710 to completely blow out the contrast. Yeah, somehow the Macrovision protection (whatever Disney was using in 1992) survived the dub. Whats weird is that the VHS originals do not trigger the same problem with the TBC. Your TBC captures show luma being clamped down, was that with the internal proc amp enabled?

[Brad]

Your TBC captures show luma being clamped down, was that with the internal proc amp enabled?

I started with all of its internal proc amp controls reset, and then did brightness -1 and contrast -7 steps in an attempt to recover the levels.

By default it was blown out to the top range of the ATI 600's capture ability. Lowering it produced the same level of clamping, just shifting everything downward.

[themaster1]

Green unit(supposedly good) , black unit (bad?) i'm lost i'd like to buy this one HERE (kinda blue cyan model or do i need glasses?). Or what about this ONE seems like the same technology / design if you download the manual (only it's gold/shinnier)
Should i or not especially to remove macrovision, cost me 176€ minimum plus vat taxes so i better be sure guys...

Thanks

[lordsmurf]

That muted blue on silver is the same guts as black unit. Bad.
Only the older green, and smurf-blue on gray (rare), units are good, from pre-2010.

That gold-ish unit may be the 1T-TBC, same basic chips as black Cypress, so another dud. I wonder why no photos of front of unit.

I wasn't part of the thread in 2014, but the original issue is not unusual. Sometimes tapes have Macrovision so bad that correcting the signal in TBC isn't enough. Not just AVT-8710, but DataVideo TBCs, For.A, etc. But it's often the exact copy of the tape, not all tapes of that title. This is rare, but I have 2-3 retail tapes from the 90s that do weird things. Another copy of the same title had no such problems.

[themaster1]

I have contacted the sales representative for the Gold one (F-202) , she says its year of production is 2005, old model, end of quote.

[lordsmurf]

I have contacted the sales representative for the Gold one (F-202) , she says its year of production is 2005, old model, end of quote.

No, that unit will not work.
It's the Cypress CDM-680 in a metal box.

PAL > NTSC = TBC works
NTSC > PAL = TBC works
NTSC > NTSC = TBC does not work
PAL > PAL = TBC does not work

The non-converted signals seem to throw the device into a passthrough mode, so you never go through the TBC chips.

BTW: CYP is the Cypress direct store. It will always be the newest stuff, ie what you do NOT want.

[themaster1]

The non-converted signals seem to throw the device into a passthrough mode, so you never go through the TBC chips.

I didn't pay attention to that.
What about this model (cheaper) . In the manual pdf, page 2 they say TBC is active constantly, even in the bypass mode

[lordsmurf]

I don't trust the documentation. It wouldn't be the first time Cypress documentation was wrong.

That's a rack-mount genlock TBC for broadcast settings. It's typical for such TBCs to fail on VHS sources, because it expected a different analog source signal from broadcast use. Those things are clunky, huge (bigger than VCR, sometimes 2x wider+longer), and always have sharp metal edges. At least that model doesn't show one of those loud noisy fans that many rack-mounted TBCs have.

That unit also has auto AGC. Yuck.

I'd already seen that site a few years ago. Nothing useful was there.

If you have any more TBC questions for me, I'll be at http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum