Vhs/DVD clarity question

[Oldretiredguy]

Here is the file info too.

[jagabo]

That shot has hardly any motion so it's hard to judge if the ghosting has gone away. It would be better if you captured the same segment as before. The sample image I posted above was from about frame 1015 of Danny Ganz 3 test.avi. If you could recapture from the end of the audience shot around frames 850 to 950, to about frame 1050, it would be easier to compare.

[Oldretiredguy]

I got torn away this evening so I'll catch up in the morning. Thanks for waitng.

Ray

[sanlyn]

Here is the file info too.

This might save you a little time and trouble. Below is a text copy-and-paste readout of MediaInfo data from the same capture, which is a report format usually requested. I didn't have to make a PNG to post this data.

Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 108 MiB
Duration : 17s 818ms
Overall bit rate : 51.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 0
Format : Huffman
Codec ID : HFYU
Duration : 17s 818ms
Bit rate : 49.5 Mbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 3:2
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : RGB
Bit depth : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 4.776
Stream size : 105 MiB (97%)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 17s 799ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 3.26 MiB (3%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 10 ms (0.30 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 19 ms

In the image that was posted from VirtualDub's AVI Information panel, did you notice the "Copy" button in the lower left-hand corner?

[Oldretiredguy]

I hope I got the frames you wanted. Have a go at it. Also, if you could give me some kind of explanation as to what you are attempting to do, it would be nice. Are we just establishing the function of my equipment or what? I just want to know what our goal is.

[jagabo]

All I'm trying to do at this point is get you to the point where you have the best possible capture of your source. I'm downloading your latest video now...

[Oldretiredguy]

Thanks Jagabo, just keep me up on what you are attempting to teach me. I want to follow along with the curve. At some point I know I will have to learn what all the different controls, filters etc. are for and what they do.

R

[RWH]

You have a couple of issues.

Picture quality. You may be able to improve the picture quality with your vcr settings. The only way is to test and compare. What you have is decent, to me. Might as well put in the effort to get as close to perfect as possible. Every tape will be different and maybe different scenes on the same tape.

You can right click in a frame to zoom in. I believe jagabo deinterlaced the clip, for test purposes.

sanlyn noticed an audio problem.

Video
Duration : 17s 818ms
Audio
Duration : 17s 799ms

19ms difference

It will get worse as the clip gets longer. Check out the file info on your latest clip , compare the duration difference. Copy and paste the results. sanlyn spotted a new VirtualDub feature.(new to me)

[Oldretiredguy]

I don't know what interlaced or deinterlaced means. Also, is there a way to put two video clips up at the same time? If I want to compare the original to the edited etc.

R

[manono]

sanlyn noticed an audio problem.

Video
Duration : 17s 818ms
Audio
Duration : 17s 799ms

19ms difference

It will get worse as the clip gets longer.

Not necessarily. A video frame at 29.97fps lasts roughly 33ms. It's rare for video frames and WAV audio to match lengths to the millisecond. Here we have only a 19ms difference. You'd need (I think) a difference of greater than 33ms to be sure of the audio getting progressively more and more out of synch.

[jagabo]

I don't know what interlaced or deinterlaced means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced_video
http://100fps.com/

Also, is there a way to put two video clips up at the same time? If I want to compare the original to the edited etc.

You can play the videos in two media players. Most media players (except Windows Media Player) allow you to run multiple instances at the same time. Or you can use two instances of VirtualDub. Or an AviSynth script:

v1=AviSource("video1.avi")
v2=AviSource("video2.avi")
StackHorizontal(v1,v2) # side by side

Or

v1=AviSource("video1.avi")
v2=AviSource("video2.avi")
Interleave(v1,v2) # one after the other, frame by frame

[jagabo]

Danny Ganz 6 has just as much ghosting as the earlier video. What is the source for that? Did you record it off cable TV? Maybe the cable provider is applying the strong temporal filter that's causing the ghosting.

[Oldretiredguy]

I guess that will come in time. I'll go to wikipedia and read.

R

[Oldretiredguy]

Danny Ganz 6 has just as much ghosting as the earlier video. What is the source for that? Did you record it off cable TV? Maybe the cable provider is applying the strong temporal filter that's causing the ghosting.

No, this is from a factory made tape that my neighbor loaned me. Just so I would have something besides my homemade tape.

R

[sanlyn]

sanlyn spotted a new VirtualDub feature.(new to me)

The Copy button in the AVI Information panel is on the new VDub 1.10.xx beta version, which Ray is using.

Danny Ganz 6 has just as much ghosting as the earlier video. What is the source for that? Did you record it off cable TV? Maybe the cable provider is applying the strong temporal filter that's causing the ghosting.

I noticed that. But on the earlier caps (the one in monochrome) I didn't see much of it. Could just be the tape. There is ghosting and some chroma shift. Another tape might look different. The tape also looks oversaturated, but that can be fixed with the proc amp later.

Doing a lot better so far. Should have sen my first three or four captures. I almost gave up.

[RWH]

Oldretiredguy

Don't rack your brain over deinterlacing yet. I think that jagabo did it just to help analyze the clip.

[Oldretiredguy]

I did go and read about it. I think I understand but not really.

R

[Oldretiredguy]

What is "proc amp"?

R

[sanlyn]

Video, whether analog or digital, can be thought of as consisting of horizontal lines, called scan lines. The lines can be looked at as even and odd numbered: the top line is an even number (0), the next line is an odd number (1). The even numbered lines are 0, 2, 4, 6, etc. The odd numbers are 1, 3, 5, 7, etc. Interlaced video consists of two images: one image is in the even lines, the second image is in the odd lines. The lines are usually output as even lines first, then the odd lines. Some video formats have the odd lines first, then the even lines.

Those two images consist of two moments in time: the first set of lines is the first instant, the second set of lines is the next instant. For now, don't worry about why this structure has existed since forever. Has to do with the way CRT TV's scanned an image onto the screen, one line at a time.

When a TV plays interlaced video, the two images are deinterlaced, separated into two separated images, and shown in sequence. But a PC doesn't deinterlace: it will show a single frame with the two superimposed images onscreen at the same time. Bummer. However, many PC media players will do the same thing a TV does: deinterlace and show the images in sequence.

The forum Glossary has a quickie definition of interlacing: https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?I#Interlace,%20Interlaced,%20Interlacing,%20non-progressive

[RWH]

The One Touch Grabber is sort of able to take over control of the internal driver settings in the background despite VirtualDub showing the video. I use this quirk to access the Proc Amp controls that are greyed out in your VirtualDub screenshot above.

proc amp

They are like old TV controls. This is what you have in the "Grabber" interface. There are controls in VirtualDub too, but fewer.

[RWH]

VirtualDub

[sanlyn]

Then he'll have to use brightness and contrast., That's all I use with my ATI card anyway. Lowering contrast also helps to lower saturation.

[RWH]

Oldretiredguy

I have a horrible internet connection, that last file will take me hours tp download. I'm curious about the durations of audio/video. If that's good then it's time to proceed. If not we're gonna have to figure out how to fix it.

From what jagabo and sanlyn are saying I think that the vcr settings don't make much difference. At least with the Danny Ganz tape.

[RWH]

sanlyn

Why not use the controls in grabber? Do you think it will cause problems? Maybe I misunderstood but I think vaporeon800 does this, while using VirtualDub to capture. Or are those controls just not needed?

[jagabo]

Don't rack your brain over deinterlacing yet. I think that jagabo did it just to help analyze the clip.

I did it to make the ghosting problem more visible. With both fields present it's harder to see because of the horizontal offset of the other field (the guy is moving).

[Oldretiredguy]

So, where are we now? Should we proceed with the Danny Ganz tape or move on to something else? I'm thinking that a factory made tape will have already been produced using the best of conditions. Am I right? I have one homemade tape that was shot with the first camera I had, then I have couple of High8 tapes and another tape (Hawaii) that was shot with my friends video camera. It was a better unit than my first one but not as good as the High8 one. I think. Anyway, what should we do next?

Ray

[Brad]

Do we have a clip where the JVC VCR's TBC/NR was turned Off now?

I suspect you'll be forced to turn it on for the sake of the TBC anyway, just trying to make sure what's what.

Why not use the controls in grabber? Do you think it will cause problems? Maybe I misunderstood but I think vaporeon800 does this, while using VirtualDub to capture.

Correct. I open VirtualDub in capture mode, then open the One Touch Grabber app and use it to tweak the Proc Amp controls. The Hue control is futile and should be left at neutral (128). Sharpness should be set to 0 because higher values add edge enhancement. Brightness and Contrast are useful, as is Saturation to a small degree.

Using VirtualDub to change the Proc Amp is annoying with every capture device anyway since opening that menu disables the video display; One Touch Grabber takes the place of GraphEdit for being able to tweak the controls and see VirtualDub's realtime display in the VC500's case.

[jagabo]

From what jagabo and sanlyn are saying I think that the vcr settings don't make much difference. At least with the Danny Ganz tape.

There wasn't a difference in the ghosting (so presumably it's in the source, not caused by the VCR) but the settings used on #3 deliver a sharper picture without over sharpening halos and maybe less time base jitter. I would use the settings in #3 for this tape, and probably others -- though he should check when he gets to them.

[RWH]

Ray

How about going back to Hawaii? Start with little pieces. Capture a minute or two. Just copy and paste the File > File Info results at first. Then upload a few frames.

Then we can start looking at adjustments while capturing. Follow vaporeon800's plan. Also play with the adjustments while capturing. Go overboard with them bash em to the right bash em to the left. Experiment, see what happens. When your comfortable with them then the gurus can get you dialed in.

That's my attempt at a plan.

[Oldretiredguy]

Ray

How about going back to Hawaii? Start with little pieces. Capture a minute or two. Just copy and paste the File > File Info results at first. Then upload a few frames.

Then we can start looking at adjustments while capturing. Follow vaporeon800's plan. Also play with the adjustments while capturing. Go overboard with them bash em to the right bash em to the left. Experiment, see what happens. When your comfortable with them then the gurus can get you dialed in.

That's my attempt at a plan.

I will do just as you suggest BUT, what adjustments are you referring to and where/when/how do you suggest that I make them. I know from my pistol shooting days that a large adjustment at first is the best way to determine what is happening and then micro adjustments after that. But, I have to have a starting point. At this point in time, I still don't have a clue what is going on so you will have to give me more info to get started. But, I'll start on the capture now. Should I capture at different spots within the tape? Is that important or should I stick to the first few minutes? Awaiting your reply...........

R