Error (?) in capturing Japanese VHS

[musicto]

What I used to capture:

- JVC HR-S9911U S-VHS Video Recorder VCR w/ Built in TBC
- AVT-8710 TBC/Proc Amp
- ATI 600 USB as the Video capture device
- VirtualDub + Huffyuv lossless codec


My laptop properties (HP Pavilion G6 notebook):
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1, AMD Athlon ll P360 Dual-Core Processor 2.30 GHz, 3.0GB RAM, AMD M880G with ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4250


Hello everybody,


I captured some Japanese anime VHS some time ago following the steps recommended in the following link:http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-avi-virtualdub.htm


I also read that the result of capturing using those steps is an interlaced video, which is good. Now here comes the dilemma, I asked a friend to look at one of the captured videos and tell me if a proper encode in x264 would result in a nice video.


After looking at the video, he told me that he couldn't precisely tell me if the captured video was interlaced or not, since a tool he uses to analyze videos only works with mpeg stuff and not avi. Also, he told me that maybe there is a possibility that the video is progressive with some traces of interlaced artifacts. He even showed me images of consecutive frames to show me an example of those strange frames:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qwgsc1szvgdodil/J7p-9nff3N#/


For the record, I play the captured videos in VLC and went through all the deinterlacing options and the video stayed the same. I also tried with PotPlayer automatic deinterlacer and I got the same result.


So here is where the problem is, I am 100% sure that I captured using those recommended methods. Capturing with that method would result in an interlaced video right? If that is the case, then why the deinterlacers in the mentionded video players don't do anything (raising the suspicions that the captured videos are progressive for some reason) and why does it have that strange artifact showed in the dropbox link? I personally played the VHS from a VCR connected to my Plasma TV and it did not show any strange artifacts like that, so it isn't a problem of damaged VHS. Japan is also NTSC btw.


I have cut a part of the video so you guys can inspect it:


https://mega.co.nz/#!gpsgURab!e6nOPlyNvbFCQTDYqVGoHDxDSz5BLcKHD7-m9b_8fwk


Thank in advance to anyone that can help me

[Brad]

Symptom: Many frames in the video are resized from a single field.

Cause: Tougher to pinpoint. The ATI 600 does this when it can't keep up with the video, and usually but not always VirtualDub will flag a dropped frame at the same time. Here is an example of the same effect when I captured a VCR fast-forwarding a tape with this device. It dropped frames all over the place until I went back to regular, stable playback and everything it did display during the FF was deinterlaced fields showing loss of vertical synchronization.



In your case there is one dropped frame in your capture (391) so you do have a problem somewhere.

Troubleshooting: Unless I skipped over it you didn't say whether you've captured a VHS tape WITHOUT these artifacts, so that should be your first goal to see where things went wrong.

[jagabo]

The video is interlaced, top field first. And it does have the problem vaporeon800 mentioned -- some frames contain a single field, doubled.

[jman98]

I'm no expert on this subject, but for whatever it's worth, we've had posts here that point out that anime is rather infamous for mixing interlaced and progressive frames. VHS is only an interlaced format so so your captures should be interlaced too, although they may be interlaced from partly progressive sources converted to interlaced VHS.

[sanlyn]

And likely, since anime is originally created as progressive video, it's interlaced playback with telecined, duplicate and/or blended frames. So, just "de-interlacing" isn't the way to go with such material. Only a few seconds of captured video will tell the tale. It's not possible to work with the collection of still frames posted.

[jagabo]

It's not possible to work with the collection of still frames posted.

He provided a video sample at the end of his first post (mega.co.nz link). Indeed it's telecined film, no field blending artifacts.

[sanlyn]

Thanks for the info. I tried the first link in post #1 which didn't work, got tee'd off and didn't check the link at the bottom. Busy day.

[musicto]

Thank you very much for your replies guys. Concerning what vaporeon800 asked, this is the first time I have captured VHS this way. So if I'm reading this right, the problem seems to be caused by the ATI 600 USB capture device? I can assure you that VirtualDub never notfied me of any dropped frames. It is so disappointing to know that I have captured videos with dropped frames .

Also, just to be sure I understand well, the ATI 600 is also the one responsible for having a single frame doubled? That sucks

Sorry if I sound like a noob, I know a little (only a little lol) bit of video, but I just want to make sure I can correctly identify what a "single frame doubled" or "resized frames from a single field" is by an example. Is the following pic an example of that artifact?:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/qwgsc1szvgdodil/a-t6D6um8p/4643.png?token_hash=AA...9enoeZtB682TWw


Is there an extra step I can take when capturing a video that would let me get a nice captured interlaced video without any dropped frames and resized frames from a single field?

I just want a normal interlaced video, so that my friend can later crop it, deinterlace it and try (if possible) to remove any noise (chroma, etc..) with filters.

Once again, thank you very much for your help guys

[sanlyn]

I just want a normal interlaced video, so that my friend can later crop it, deinterlace it and try (if possible) to remove any noise (chroma, etc..) with filters.

Then you don't want to capture VHS to lossy MPEG2. Capture to lossless Avi using a fast lossless compressor such as huffyuv (which is free) or Lagarith (also free). Capturing to lossy encoders (MPEG2, etc.) is too slow for many OS's and MMC. As for the card, likely there's nothing wrong with it.

Why are you cropping it?

[musicto]

Then you don't want to capture VHS to lossy MPEG2. Capture to lossless Avi using a fast lossless compressor such as huffyuv (which is free) or Lagarith (also free). Capturing to lossy encoders (MPEG2, etc.) is too slow for many OS's and MMC. As for the card, likely there's nothing wrong with it.

Why are you cropping it?

I'm not doing any of what you are saying, read my first post on this thread. I referred to cropping only as something to do post- processing (encoding the lossless AVI into x264).

[jagabo]

Also, just to be sure I understand well, the ATI 600 is also the one responsible for having a single frame doubled?

It's a combination of the capture device and poor time base of the VHS deck. You should try a different deck if you can.

Sorry if I sound like a noob, I know a little (only a little lol) bit of video, but I just want to make sure I can correctly identify what a "single frame doubled" or "resized frames from a single field" is by an example. Is the following pic an example of that artifact?:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/qwgsc1szvgdodil/a-t6D6um8p/4643.png?token_hash=AA...9enoeZtB682TWw

Yes, that frame shows the problem. Analog interlaced video is transmitted as a series of fields, not frames. Each field consists of every other scan line of the video. One field is lines 0, 2, 4, 6... of the frame, the other field is lines 1, 3, 5, 7... Capture devices normally capture two consecutive fields and weave them together into a frame for storage. When the capture device misses a field it may substitute a copy of the previous field for the second. That is what you are seeing.

[Brad]

If VirtualDub didn't notify you of the frame it marked as D, it should have at least said "Frames inserted: 1".

Simplify your capture chain to identify the source of the problem. If you have any tapes that aren't Macrovision protected, try capturing one of those without the AVT inline.

If that capture doesn't exhibit the issue, capture your Yu-Gi-Oh tape without the AVT. A lot of frames will be garbled by the ATI 600's response to the copy protection (if the tape is indeed MV'd) but you should get at least a few seconds here and there to check. The way to reset the ATI 600's MV response is to interrupt its reading of the vertical interval: you can either Stop and Start playback, Fast Forward and Rewind, or on some VCRs Pause will even do it. You'll get a few seconds of grace period each time before it implements the garbling tactic again.

Another thing to try is disabling the VCR's TBC-DNR function, and another is toggling the Video Stabilizer function in the menu if this is a model with that feature.

[jagabo]

I would start by capturing from a clean source like a DVD player (playing an unprotected disc) or cable box. Verify that you have the capture process working properly first. Then move on to VHS tapes.