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Hey, for the intro theme music on a project I worked on a few years ago, we turned the production crew into a kazoo band.Originally Posted by zoobie
Another option would be to learn all the instruments you need then simply record your music for as long as you wish.
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I'm not trying to circumvent the system. If you try to a get a good deal on a car do you call that trying to circumvent the system?Originally Posted by filmboss80
http://www.dmx.com/services/video/licensingOriginally Posted by plnelson
http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/types_of_copyrights
The type of license you're looking for is called a Synchronization License.
You seem to be under the misconception that there is some common technique to circumvent the system or come up with a strategy to get a cheap price.
If there are 20 different performances out there of the Bach cello suites on 20 different labels, foreign and domestic, by 20 different artists, what's the most efficient way to find out who represents whom, who to talk with and how to get the best terms? Are there any resources on the web to find out who represents whom? BMI only represents a portion of the artists out there. -
Looks like a whole lot of shysters if you look up "Copyright Clearing House". Ready to relieve you of your wallet. Like looking up a plumber online. Hahaha.
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But I don't know how to do that. That's why I started this thread. There are lots and lots of classical performances out there on CD or MP3. But I don't know who represents them, who to contact, or what the standard boilerplate licensing agreements say. I posted this question on this forum because I figured there would be people here who have actual experience with that.Originally Posted by smrpix
Your advocacy for the composer's vision led me to a mistaken conclusion.Originally Posted by plnelson
There are two basic kinds of rights, performance and publishing. Classical works are in the public domain so there is no fee due to a publisher. Nothing stops you from coming to any agreement you like with (non-signatory) musicians or composers.Originally Posted by plnelson
As a photographer and artist I have lots of experience dealing with models - I know the legal rules and procedures, I know how to negotiate, I know how to deal with models' agents, and I know how to draw up a legal model release. And I learned all this stuff years ago by asking experienced professional photographers on web forums like this.
No, I really haven't. Almost all the answers have been about using these little services. People seem to think that actually arranging with a commercial artist or label is too hard or too expensive, but I don't have the impression that anyone saying that has ever personally done it or tried it.Anyway, over the course of these posts, you've gotten an overview of what's done.
If I want to use existing commercial music - someone's performance of some Chopin etudes that I heard on Rhapsody or Spotify, say, - what do I do next? How do I find out who represents the artist or how to contact the artist? What do standard boilerplate agreements look like? If the artist is outside my country how does this affect the process? Not all artists or labels use BMI - how do I find out who they do use? -
I've been doing it for years. You either contact the publishing house (ASCAP or BMI), make a private arrangement with a composer/musician, or find royalty-free music. The internet has made the whole process incredibly easy.Originally Posted by plnelson
Look at or look up the label. Call them.Originally Posted by plnelson
As someone said earlier, there's no magic formula. It's very straightforward. -
From what I understand, and have read, you have to cut your own deal individually. If they smell big money down the line, it's more. If you're a tiny small fry production, they probbly don't care for your business.
No artist wants their music used negatively, either. So you're in luck there. Nobody cares. -
Sorry haven't dropped by this thread earlier.
As was mentioned before, you have 2 things to work on for licensing: Publishing (more rightly known as composition copyright) and Performance (more rightly known as a "mechanical", "recording" or "synchronization" license). One covers the CONTENT of what's being played and the other covers the ACTUAL RECORDED INSTANCE of that content.
For composition, you work with ASCAP/BMI for 99.9% of the material out there. Everybody who's gotten anything done uses them, so they are the place to go. You are likely NOT going to find a recording that is done multiple times by different artists where the original composition is NOT already covered by them. Once composers/publishers create something of value, application to the copyright office & ASCAP/BMI are the 1st & 2nd stops on their list of things to do with it, even before promotion.
Since ASCAP/BMI have what amounts to a monopoly on brokering the rates, you pay what they tell you. You can get discounts depending on who you are and how it is used (non-profit, educational, sacred), but it doesn't vary that much (last time I checked).
For mechanical licenses, the area is more varied, but the first stop would be to try Harry Fox Agency, who brokers the lion's share of big time recordings. Tiered pricing is more varied here as well, also depending upon how MUCH is used, how big the market/audience is, and whether you are using it alone as audio or matching it to video (a "synchronization" license). For some of their clients, you might even get the fee waived if you are one of those specialty populations previously mentioned (non-profit, etc). BTW, Certain users already have "blanket" licenses also (radio stations, etc), that cover (nearly) unlimited use of the cornucopia of songs/recordings they may choose to air - You won't get one of those.
As also mentioned, going to the individual recording label's site is also a great place to start. And NOPE, there is no magic wand or free lunch here: you will have to do a lot of (the equivalent of) leg work to track this stuff down. There is no unifying database for recordings, especially for lesser-known and not-globally-distributed stuff. The bigger stuff has ISRC codes that do catalog a piece and help identify the rights holders, etc., so maybe that would help.
BTW, as a professional audio editor and a musician (and as a respector of the creative efforts of the original composers, arrangers & producers), I take umbrage with your condescension of the fine process of LOOPING & Time Compression/Expansion. If done well, it is both seamless/invisible and respectful of those original artistic endeavors. And, in a sense, it mirrors what composers/arrangers/producers already did and do when making those original recordings: it fits the music to the style needs of it's intended environment. If you were a musician you would know this - rarely is music "set in stone" as one monolithic and solely-defined instance. Bars are repeated for comping, verses/choruses added or subtracted, movements are omitted. This is COMMON. So if the audio engineer mimics this process with a synchronized version of his/her own, why can't they be hononred also (assuming it is well done)? I have probably done this kind of thing literally THOUSANDS of times, using sometimes very well-known works, and I have never heard anything but praise on the job I did, sometimes even from the original composer. Please, get real and lighten up.
Scott -
Scott, or anyone, do you think classical is even doable on a DAW? I don't. They seem to be disparate entities.
I mean, classical has no "beat", but swells and ebbs to create interest, I suppose. I have a very eclectic taste in music. To me, good music transcends genre. But classical just doesn't resonate with me.
In the 80's, they tried to "Pop"ularize classical, and some of that was ok, like Falco's "Amadeus". But overall, classical fails to entertain me.
If I was watching a video with a classical music soundbed, I would way lower, or mute it. And if you voice-over it, and force me to endure that, I might look for another product. You might consider having a voice-only audio track as an option.Last edited by budwzr; 20th Nov 2013 at 09:15.
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Budwzr, not sure I understand your question exactly, but I've been cutting already-recorded classical music (among many other styles) since 16mm fullcoat. Done it in very medium since then --linear, non-linear, analogue digital. No question some pieces are easier than others, but there's almost always a way.
Quick anecdote, we were doing an intermission piece for "Live From the Met" and covered one particularly hideous musical cut with a car horn (the visuals allowed for it.) The musicians, singers and conductor loved it because we had in essence turned it into a musical inside joke. -
smr, I mean "compose" classical in a DAW. That would be tough, no?
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Yeah, that was the other possibility....Originally Posted by budwzr
Actually, with good software and good musician/composers it's definitely doable.
Another anecdote, we had a composer/musician who basically created a synthesized classical underscore bed (using really top notch samples and software with the ability to modify tempo, etc. He then overdubbed live musicians for certain instruments. The results were impressive. But again, really good gear and really talented people. -
Many classical musicians that I know who compose use a midi-based DAW for the input & edit work. They just avoid using it to actually OUTPUT the music. Rather they take the midi into a score-producing software (such as Sibelius, Finale, etc) and print out parts (with which to audio record later, or just to perform). Other composer/arranger/conductors I know DO occasionally create some backing passages all synthetically (e.g. to back film/video).
And yes you can loop classical! The beat/loop phrases may be longer (sometimes MUCH longer), but I have yet to find a piece that I couldn't tackle and "massage into compliance".
Scott -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGopHhdmbUw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIoM-eFGXeI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm_xYAi8Clo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlrs2Vorw2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY-fGC_lt2g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_HKM7lamUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euc7Aa3rg3I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_composition -
While there are a thousand ways to do anything, most composers would compose with Finale, Sibelius, Notion (great iPad app version) or something similar.
What works for a printed score does not necessarily result in something that sounds correct when rendered with samples, either in software or by synth. Typically, one would use ReWire to link the composition to the DAW rendering the sounds, so adjustments can be made separately for each purpose.
You would need the client's ok before spending the money for a live player session, so you will need to render it via samples at some point.
No way to prove it, but I would guess that much, if not most, classical music heard in commercial, tv and film is rendered via samples. You need a big budget to afford a live orchestra.
If you need long form known classical pieces, you can always find midi files of these. The compositions are public domain. Import the midi into your DAW, use an inexpensive orchestral sample package or synth and render.
If the music is in the background, you won't have to work as hard to get the samples to sound "right" as you will if the music is up front. -
Correction: SOME classical music is pubic domain. There are many famous composers that are much more recent and still fall under copyright: Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Copland, Whitacre, Gershwin, Glass, Reich... the list is LONG. You would have to verify the time period as being pre-1927 (?) to be assured it actually is in PD. Don't get caught with your pants down.
@dLee, some composers, because of their training, compose via pencil & paper still. Some have also transferred that prediliction naturally to Finale, Sibelius, etc., but many composers are also accomplished performers as well and would naturally compose directly via MIDI keyboard. While it is possible to edit a piece in midi format while in one of those scoring apps, I know from experience that the full feature-set necessary for cleaning up "ragged" midi input and applying easy global manipulations really only exists in midi-based DAWs (such as ProTools, Digital Performer, Logic, Cakewalk, etc). Then, the edited midi data is exported from the DAW and imported into the scoring app, where the full feature-set of scoring and printing/publishing is its core strength. The right tool for the job, and all that...
Also, you don't need a BIG budget, but you do need some ($500-$20k for musicians, whatever for recording sessions & studio rental). If the musicians are full-time professionals, they are probably part of the Union and so must be paid Union wage. You can still get good quality, non-union groups together (not ALL classical pieces require an 80-piece orchestra), though with lesser-known, part-time musicians, the quality may vary and so for production-efficiency-sake it would make more sense to resort to synths. I would guess, however, that for National TV spots and Feature Films, live orchestra recording is still common. Just a glance at recent films' credits seems to support that.
Otherwise, I quite agree with you. And yes, looping/editing/transposing in Midi is even more easy to do (than audio) and should provide a natural sounding result (depending on sample quality).
Scott -
Hi Scott -
As far a public domain compositions go, of course, use your common sense. Some people put copyright notices on their midi files of PD material, too.
Your point about composing with paper and pencil: The recent issue of "Sound on Sound" features an ad for Finale 2014 with Steve Vai sitting at a desk with what looks like a hand written full orchestral score. I had to smile at that since the ad is for an engraving program.
If your composer friends are transferring their midi files back and forth between programs, they must have a high threshold for frustration. The transfer changes the files and / or settings in the software in ways that are not usually good. I think the ReWire option keeps the two worlds of engraving and rendering separate - and - their specialized toolsets.
One of my favorite ways of composing is to sit at the keyboard and improvise while recording midi and audio with Reaper (my DAW of choice). After editing out the junk, I bring the midi into my engraving program. I can relate to the music staff much more readily than, say, the piano roll editor in the DAW.
And to whomever said that classical music has no beat, I would say that classical is much more rhythmically complex than popular music. I just finished working on a piece by Bach that changed time signatures every measure for short passages. Not uncommon. -
I agree with most of what you are saying, but think that for much the the core elements, there isn't an interchange problem. Also, the best DAWs (like those aforementioned) have long since superceded simple pianoroll/NoteOn-NoteOff editing with Staff editing (though Pianoroll is still an option). When I've composed, I favor Cakewalk origination & editing (I can even compose on the Querty keyboard quite fast with their shortcuts) then moved to Finale for making pro-looking part sheets. When I'm better situated, I'll use a new version of ProTools which has direct import shortcuts direct into Sibelius (similar to how Adobe has integrated their suite), negating any interchange confusion.
Midi files that are copyrighted are a strange bird: since midi is very recent, ALL midi files are copyrighted unless they are specifically DONATED into the Public Domain. However, they are for other reasons much less well policed, so are commonly (ab)used anyway (for good or ill). Especially since a synth/sampled rendering makes it no longer Midi, but audio, and then there's no way to definitively say where the piece came from.
Scott -
But that's like saying when you want to buy a car you can either buy one from a dealer, lease one or buy one used.Originally Posted by smrpix
I've been doing it for years. You either contact the publishing house (ASCAP or BMI), make a private arrangement with a composer/musician, or find royalty-free music. The internet has made the whole process incredibly easy.Originally Posted by plnelson
OBVIOUSLY I can either contact the musician, or the label or go through BMI. But if I go to a car discussion forum on the web I can get advice from people who've done it about which one might be best under which circumstances. "There's no magic formula" but there are guidelines and rules of thumb. The impression I get from this thread is no one has ever actually tried anything other than a "royalty-free-service". -
Except that most of the composers I'm interested in (I mentioned Bach and Chopin) have been dead for a century or more.Originally Posted by Cornucopia
So I can see (hear) that for myself, can you suggest an example of where a well-known piece of classical music was given that treatment? (especially for an audience that would know the difference?) I'll grant you that if you take a move like Black Swan where the intended audience is a pretty mass-market demographic you could probably morph and transmogriphy Tchaikovsky mercilessly and they would never know or care.BTW, as a professional audio editor and a musician (and as a respector of the creative efforts of the original composers, arrangers & producers), I take umbrage with your condescension of the fine process of LOOPING & Time Compression/Expansion. If done well, it is both seamless/invisible and respectful of those original artistic endeavors. -
For me, Ableton is the goto tool for composing because it can extract the notes, chords, beat, and groove, you really like, to roll your own song.
There's not a lot of diversity in music nowadays, and even a non-musical, music hack, like me, can make usable free music. That's why I got into Ableton in the first place, to make royalty free music for my own productions.
I love it when Ableton hands me the midi version of a pop song with the click of a mouse. All those "Loop Purveyors" like Sony charge big bucks for samples too. Not even songs yet.
Typical construction kits are like $30 each.Last edited by budwzr; 23rd Nov 2013 at 20:33.
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Not sure what else you're looking for really. What's your budget? Have you contacted ASCAP or BMI and gotten prices on any of the pieces you are interested in? Have you spoken to any musicians or composers to gauge their interest?
If I were you, as you describe your situation, I would be looking to royalty free music. But that could well be a failure of imagination on my part. -
The ones I mentioned - Bach, Chopin - are safely out of range of the lawyers.Originally Posted by Cornucopia
So, as I mentioned above, I know what the contracts for photographers' models look like and what clauses to add or remove, depending on my needs, etc. Where can I see examples for contracts for performance or use of existing recording in a video? -
http://hiphopproduction.com/free-music-contracts/
But this makes it look more complicated than it needs to be. -
I've been to about 10 different "royalty free" sites. Very little classical music to begin with and most of what there was was "greatest hits" stuff (1812 Overture, opening notes to Beethoven's 5th Symphony, etc). Mostly symphonic - as I indicated above, I'm looking for solo instruments such as cello or piano. And again, way too short. I don't mind looping or repeating something after a half hour, but I don't want to repeat it after 3 minutes!Originally Posted by smrpix
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Boston's about half an hour away from you. There are some incredibly talented kids at Berklee who may want to make a few bucks. Don't rip them off.
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What you're looking for is unusual. I'm not surprised that you can't find it. You will need to produce it yourself or hire someone to do it.
Many / most classical pieces are not 30min or longer - especially solo piano or cello. Symphonic pieces that last that long are divided into movements - i.e. not continuous.
If you can find a good PD midi file of a longer piece that you like, you could mute everything except the piano or cello part and render that.
Most producers don't want or need 30 minute or longer continuous classical music for their projects.
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