Did the company that transfered my laserdiscs do a good job?

[HitTheRoad]

They should probably get the black level corrected during capture too.

Is it possible to fix the chroma noise during capture too?

I inverse telecined back to film frames

You did this to fix the sample. But do I understand you well as I say this wouldn't have been necessary if the filmlab had just delivered me a NTSC transfer from a NTSC laserdisc?

The issue for you is whether you want invest the time to learn the filtering tools and techniques (and cost if you want to use commercial tools)

I'm working in iMovie. I'm afraid this doesn't do the job. I have Final Cut Pro, but haven't used it yet. Is this a software I can use for this purpose? And how much time would it take to learn?

[jagabo]

or if you are willing to accept second rate scaling by them

Why is it that you think there scaling skills are second to what I could learn about scaling?

It's obvious from the samples you uploaded. Especially the second one.

I'm working in iMovie. I'm afraid this doesn't do the job. I have Final Cut Pro, but haven't used it yet. Is this a software I can use for this purpose? And how much time would it take to learn?

I don't know anything about those programs. I don't really use any apple products. FCP probably has most of what you might want to do. Or plugins can be added to the base program.

In my quick fix sample I used AviSynth (a powerful but idiosyncratic script based video processing system), the x264 command line encoder, and mmg (a GUI based muxing tool for MKV files). AviSynth is only available for Windows so you'd need access to a Windows computer. The learning curve is pretty steep. Aside from Windows, these are all free, open source tools.

They should probably get the black level corrected during capture too.

Is it possible to fix the chroma noise during capture too?

Yes. But it depends on the hardware and software they have.

In inverse telecined back to film frames

You did this to fix the sample. But do I understand you well as I say this wouldn't have been necessary if the filmlab had just delivered me a NTSC transfer from a NTSC laserdisc?

It depends on what you plan to do with the files. Some filtering can be done on interlaced video, some can't.

[2Bdecided]

What is your final destination? DVD? MP4/MKV file?

Since all Media Players can handle DV I thought I would keep things DV.

Only software players on computers. Standalone media players, Blu-ray/DVD players and TVs that can play media files -- I've never seen or heard of one that can play DV.

DV is an editing format, not a delivery format. It's fine if you want to process the files or store a higher quality version for future use, but it's not a viewing format these days (unless you're still watching DV tapes on a camcorder plugged into your TV).

DV video with 720x576 pixels ("PAL" frame size), 29.97fps ("NTSC" frame rate), and (if I'm reading this correctly) AAC audio is a long way from standard DV, so won't be particularly compatible even with software that handles standard DV.



It's very unlikely/impossible that the laserdisc player output 720x576 with 29.97fps. What I would want and expect is a transfer of exactly what's on the disc to DV or lossless 720x480 29.97fps PCM or AC-3 audio, and then fix this up in AVIsynth and author a nice NTSC (or, if you want and it can be easily and properly converted, PAL) DVD. Or if you're not too concerned about the absolute best quality (or don't think you have the ability to achieve it with the tools you have available) just let them do a direct transfer to NTSC DVD.


Cheers,
David.

[HitTheRoad]

2Bdecided (David), Thanks very much for your reaction. All very clear.

[HitTheRoad]

I received a new transfer from one of the three laserdiscs. Could you guys please take a look at this? As far as I can see this transfer is even worse than the last one. The picture looks distorted, it's stretched out vertically (to top and bottom). Also, the capture's aspect ratio still is 4:3. And interlacing artefacts are still visible.
According to the company that did the job, there's nothing wrong. They say they have made me a SD 4:3 anamorphic DV file, that I should stretch out myself by changing the aspect ratio options in my video player.
This is not what I have asked for. I asked for a 16:9 DV file, to fill up the 16:9 space of any widescreen to the max and to avoid black bars popping up right and left.

http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/anamorphic_DV_NTSC.mov

[smrpix]

The transfer itself looks to be right. It's interlaced with 3:2 pulldown, the interlacing appears proper.

The source was widescreen film, so the letterboxing bars also look correct. It's a 16:9 transfer. Why they couldn't include the 16:9 flag I don't understand, but that's just a flag, no change necessary in the actual image.

AAC audio is unusual for DV. Did they do that or did you?

[HitTheRoad]

AAC audio is unusual for DV. Did they do that or did you?

The AAC audio was done by the filmlab.

The source was widescreen film, so the letterboxing bars also look correct. It's a 16:9 transfer.

For he original aspect ratio, please take a look at the sample I took from the first transfer they made:

http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/Ventures%20sample.mov

The first transfer was true to the original laserdisc 4:3 technology. Laserdiscs were ment to be played on 4:3 tv sets. But since we moved on to widescreens, I asked the filmlab to make me a 16:9 transfer.

They now tell me they made me a 4:3 anamorphic DV. This one:

http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/anamorphic_DV_NTSC.mov

When played in the 16:9 mode on VLC, there are no black bars popping up right and left. So there's more picture, and less black bars. That's okay. But I doubt if this is the way it should have been done... Anyone?

To edit the movie and make a DVD, it seems I first have to turn the 4:3 anamorphic DV to a 16:9 DV. Right? This means I'll have to encode, and this will result in a loss of quality, right?

So this is how the first transfer looked:



And this is how the second transfer looks, when manually put in 16:9 mode:

[jagabo]

The latest MOV file is a 2.35:1 film source in a 16:9 DAR anamorphic NTSC 720x480 frame. For some reason the MOV file is flagged 4:3, not 16:9. The question is whether the laserdisc was 16:9 anamorphic (some were made that way) or regular 4:3. I suspect the latter because your earlier avengers clip had very large black borders at the top and bottom and those borders were uniformly at a high black level.

You do not want them to convert 4:3 to 16:9. You want to capture the disc with as little processing as possible. If the disc is 4:3 then it should be captured as 4:3.

[HitTheRoad]

For some reason the MOV file is flagged 4:3, not 16:9.

Is there a way to reflag the movie file to 16:9?

You do not want them to convert 4:3 to 16:9. You want to capture the disc with as little processing as possible. If the disc is 4:3 then it should be captured as 4:3.

Okay, so the filmlab captured the laserdisc correctly? That's nice.
But what if I want to produce a DVD from the mov. file? Then I still have to keep it 4:3 aspect ratio?

By the way, here's a sample of how a 4:3 DV turned into a 16:9 DV looks:

http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/anamorphic_DV_NTSC.dv

Pixelation can be spotted.

[jagabo]

For some reason the MOV file is flagged 4:3, not 16:9.

Is there a way to reflag the movie file to 16:9?

Yes, you can just remux it with a 16:9 DAR flag.

You do not want them to convert 4:3 to 16:9. You want to capture the disc with as little processing as possible. If the disc is 4:3 then it should be captured as 4:3.

Okay, so the filmlab captured the laserdisc correctly?

They may have captured it correctly but what they delivered is not what you really want (although it may be what you asked for, aside from the DAR flag). I think the laserdisc was 4:3 DAR and they captured it as 4:3 DV. Then they converted it to 16:9 DV by cropping the top and bottom 60 scan lines and resizing what's left to 720x480. You want it delivered as the original 4:3 DV. Type 2 DV AVI with the original PCM audio is preferable. I hate the MOV container. And there's no reason to convert the audio to AAC.

Of course, I'm only making an educated guess about the laserdisc's DAR, based on the files you've posted. It's possible the laserdisc was 16:9 DAR.

But what if I want to produce a DVD from the mov. file? Then I still have to keep it 4:3 aspect ratio?

No, it's 16:9 DAR. You flag it as 16:9.

[HitTheRoad]

you can just remux it with a 16:9 DAR flag

Using which tool? Is there something for the Mac? There's Remux, but this tool doesn't do the trick

I hate the MOV container.

It's easy to get rid of it, isn't it? Just change the .mov extension to .dv

You flag it (the DVD) as 16:9.

Again, I'm afraid this won't be easy on a Mac. I use Roxia Toast for creating DVD's. I don't think it has the possibility to flag dv- or other file formats.


.

[jagabo]

you can just remux it with a 16:9 DAR flag

Using which tool? Is there something for the Mac? There's Remux, but this tool doesn't do the trick

I don't know what will work on the Mac.

I hate the MOV container.

It's easy to get rid of it, isn't it? Just change the .mov extension to .dv

That doesn't change the way the audio and video streams are organized within the container.

You flag it (the DVD) as 16:9.

Again, I'm afraid this won't be easy on a Mac. I use Roxia Toast for creating DVD's. I don't think it has the possibility to flag dv- or other file formats..

I don't know about Toast but it should be trivial. In general, you set the project to 16:9 and import the video. There is usually a way to override what the program thinks of the source's aspect ratio. In most Windows editors you right click on the video in the timeline and select "video properties" or some such. In this case you are not telling the program to convert the video from 4:3 to 16:9, just that the DAR of the source is already 16:9.

[HitTheRoad]

I think I have found a way to turn the mov. container to a dv. container, and flagging the file 16:9!

Please check this sample:

http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/testfile%20Ventures.dv

This is what I did: I opened the original mov. file in QuickTime 7. I then made these settings:





There's only one thing I'm not sure about. I selected the "Interlaced" scan mode. Maybe I should have selected the "progressive" scan mode?

Also I don't understand why the .dv I got, has a 720 x 480 resolution, whereas the original mov. file has a 1024 x 480 resolution. Anyone?

[jagabo]

Yes, that's a DV elementary stream with 16:9 DAR flagged. The MOV is interlaced (telecined film) so you should use that setting. I don't know if the program remuxed or reencoded (the latter would lose a little quality).

The original MOV file did not have a 1024x480 resolution. It was 720x480. NTSC DV only supports a 720x480 frame size. PAL DV only supports a 720x576 frame size.

[smrpix]

I don't know if the program remuxed or reencoded

Tried it here. Good news, the speed would indicate remux.

[HitTheRoad]

I don't know if the program remuxed or reencoded (the latter would lose a little quality).

I suppose the program remuxed, since there's no loss of quality I can see.
Is there a way to determine it the file was remuxed or encoded?

[poisondeathray]

You do difference masks to see if any pixels have changed. They don't (at least on when performed with windows quicktime pro, I'd assume the mac version is the same - I didn't download the other file but repeated the test on the original file). So that is definitive proof no damage is done , and it was remuxed

But the AAC audio is unacceptable IMO . Especially for an audio oriented source. Especially when you're paying for this

[jagabo]

But the AAC audio is unacceptable IMO . Especially for an audio oriented source. Especially when you're paying for this

Did you know if the PCM audio in the DV file come from the original DV stream or the AAC?

[poisondeathray]

But the AAC audio is unacceptable IMO . Especially for an audio oriented source. Especially when you're paying for this

Did you know if the PCM audio in the DV file come from the original DV stream or the AAC?

converted from AAC

The source MOV didn't contain PCM audio . That's just a pure mistake by the company

To be clear, I'm talking about "anamorphic_DV_NTSC.mov" , when rewrapped in quicktime to DV, the video is stream copied, but the audio is converted from AAC to PCM wav

[HitTheRoad]

But the AAC audio is unacceptable IMO

Please explain. I don't understand. Is the AAC audio a mistake because you presume the laserdisc has PCM audio?

[poisondeathray]

But the AAC audio is unacceptable IMO

Please explain. I don't understand. Is the AAC audio a mistake because you presume the laserdisc has PCM audio?

I think Laserdisc can have PCM , AC3 or DTS ; but that' s not the point

The point is AAC is a lossy audio format . The version you have been given has lost quality and thrown away bits of data for no reason. AAC also tends to attenuate at higher frequencies

AAC isn't even standard for DV format in any wrapper (.dv, .mov or .avi) - so that's clearly a mistake by the company

[HitTheRoad]

AAC isn't even standard for DV format in any wrapper (.dv, .mov or .avi)

So what's the standard for DV formats? PCM? That's lossless?

Many DVD's, maybe even MOST DVD's, have AAC audio. Why on earth do DVD editors select this kind of lossy audio?

Anyway, I will ask the filmlab to make me a new transfer, this time WITH PCM. I have to pay them another visit anyway. They forgot (!) to ad the new transfers from the other laserdiscs to the external drive I gave them.

[jagabo]

So what's the standard for DV formats? PCM? That's lossless?

Yes, uncompressed PCM.

Many DVD's, maybe even MOST DVD's, have AAC audio.

AAC is not a part of the DVD spec. Commercial DVDs usually have AC3, MP2, or PCM.

Why on earth do DVD editors select this kind of lossy audio?

To leave more room for video. And most people can't tell the difference between high bitrate lossy compressed audio and uncompressed. But you always want your data acquisition to to be uncompressed or losslessly compressed.

[HitTheRoad]

AAC is not a part of the DVD spec.

Sorry, I ment AC3 in stead of AAC.

[HitTheRoad]

Many thanks to everybody for looking into this! Without your help I would have never been sure what to do.

The filmlab stiil owes me two laserdisc transfers (the ones they promised to redo). I will let you know.

[poisondeathray]

Is it possible that you made the mistake with the audio ? Perhaps when cutting a sample you inavertently encoded the audio to AAC ?

[jagabo]

And be sure you get 16 bit, 48 KHz PCM audio, not 12 bit 32 KHz.

[HitTheRoad]

Is it possible that you made the mistake with the audio ? Perhaps when cutting a sample you inavertently encoded the audio to AAC ?

I'm afraid not.
This is what the Apple finder's telling me about the complete, uncut file:



And this is the information from MPEGStreamclip about the complete, uncut file:

[HitTheRoad]

And be sure you get 16 bit, 48 KHz PCM audio, not 12 bit 32 KHz.

Understood!

[2Bdecided]

Most of these transfer labs have customers who are delighted to be able to see any kind of moving image from their source videos. Those customers think it's a near-miracle that someone can play an old video format at all.

It must really spoil the lab's day when they have a customer who know what "a proper job" is, or at least can find a forum on the internet where people can tell them what a proper job is.


What ever you do, don't point them to this thread. A bunch of amateurs telling professionals they don't know what they're doing - it never goes down well!


Cheers,
David.