120 minutes of SVCD on one disc!

[MrDilemma]

I see a few templates on this site for fitting 120 minutes on one disc for an svcd but which one is best for quality (by that I just mean micro blocks), and time it takes to encode (there is no way i can go 18 hours without burning something and I cant burn and encode at the same time). Someone help me out!

[xaanin]

Doesn't really matter, the quality will most likely suck however you do =(

[bbb]

The quality will not be good for most movies if you lower the bitrate to squeeze in more than 1 hour of video per svcd. However, if you are encoing fairly static, slide show seminars/lectures with a slow moving lecturer, it might be suitable.

The reason that people make movies on 2-3 cdrs per svcd (or xsvcd 352x480) is because that is the minimum number of discs required when using the minimum bitrate that produces consistently good to great video quality.

No one's templates can magically squeeze more minutes onto a vcd/svcd but if you must try ... why not use the original extended minute templates from sefy? He gives you the facts straight regarding the expected video quality, unlike some of the adolescent scammers/spammers.

[kwag]

Look again:

http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag

kwag

[xaanin]

sorry, but nothing with a resolution of 352x288 will look good, no matter what the bitrate is. And 128 kbps audio is low =(

[Bud]

xaanin

You may want to at least try Kwag Templates and then come back and comment on them, I don't think you will be disapointed, if you don't like them you loose nothing, but to comment without at least looking is not fair to all the hard work that goes into creating something many folks like.

Bud

[kwag]

@xaanin

Please download the first sample ( Farscape ) in the site below.
It's 352x288 and then come back here!.

kwag

[Fred©]

Kwag,

your site reports files are 352x288 (VCD PAL) and are also MPEG1 streams... well, isnt SVCD MPEG-2 stream?

Why in Nero should I burn those files as VCD turning off the compliance and why not burning as SVCD without compliance?

Thanks,

Fred©
Brazil

[kwag]

Kwag,

your site reports files are 352x288 (VCD PAL) and are also MPEG1 streams... well, isnt SVCD MPEG-2 stream?

Why in Nero should I burn those files as VCD turning off the compliance and why not burning as SVCD without compliance?

Thanks,

Fred©
Brazil

Hi Fred:

Yes. SVCD is an MPEG-2 stream.

But the files in the site you burn them as VCD because they are MPEG-1.
Just turn OFF compliance checks. If not, Nero will complain.

If they were MPEG-2, then you would burn them as SVCD. But this is not the case.

kwag

[Stinky]

Yes. SVCD is an MPEG-2 stream.

But the files in the site you burn them as VCD because they are MPEG-1.
Just turn OFF compliance checks. If not, Nero will complain.

If they were MPEG-2, then you would burn them as SVCD. But this is not the case.

then why are you replying to this post? the title is about SVCD's ... MPEG-2

you have xVCD templates on your site but not xSVCD and not SVCD standard.

just curious because you replied here and it seemed a bit out of context without an explanation

[kwag]

Hi Stinky:

I replied here because I hear people want to get SVCD quality and don't look at the cons of SVCD.

Like most ( over 90% ) DVD players in the market support DVD/VCD/xVCD playback, but not SVCD.

And if you compare the quality of MPEG-1 ( at least the latest version of TMPEG ), you'll notice that with the template I posted you can get a 2 hour movie with a quality that is very close ( if not equal, read the posts around or download more samples ) to SVCD.

But SVCD gives you about 40 minutes of playback per CD at the standard SVCD bit rates. If you lower these bitrates in MPEG-2 to try to increase the time, the results are nasty, because MPEG-2 performs pretty bad in average bitrates below 2,000Kbps at 480x480.

So yes, my reply was out of context, to put another context into good use.


kwag

[Fred©]

Kwag,

I also was concerning about your reply as SVCD topyc... but I downloaded farscape and, for me, it is good enough for my home video purposes... Do you really garantee 120 min of VCD with your templates?

Second question: I have captured lots of VHS video in NTSC AVI format... if using your templates it will be converted to PAL? (meanly the framerate? or I will have to do something more?)

Thanks in advance,

Fred©
Brazil

[vhelp]

afternoon mrdilemma, xaanin,

basicaly, those templates mentioned above works well for DVD "dvd2avi"'ed
in "forced film" mode. ben using this tech. for the last year almost.
But, didn't realise it till I woke up, LOL, he, he....

Anyways, as long as you use "forced film" in "dvd2avi", ie 23.976fps
you'll get excellect quality VCDs not to mention svcd's. Just about
no matter what you do w/ those GOPs it will always look good, till you
stretch them out too far or sometihng. But for best quality, you'll
want to stick with GOP settings like 2x3, 5x2, 5x3 etc. These yield
the best quality (not that you'll notice) but these normal size GOPs
also keep your video STABLE too.

I've use (still playing around w/ 1x20x3 GOPS) and I believe I have
found the solution to the audio studders and video jerks w/ these high
GOPs (w/ out changing the above GOP setting) but TBQO w/ya, the only
benefit that I see is the space saving. Mind this only works for
xvcd not xsvcd (at least as far as I know) it's really for saving on
MB space to fit on hopefully, 1 CD and w/ pretty good quality mind
ya.
YOU might want to play around w/ the above though. If you are willing
to have an open mind to these GOPs. It's just a matter of someone
finding the right tweaked setting(s) per their system/dvd, and their
preference as far as what they will comprimise on in quality, for them
to be willing to use these settings in their encodes. I'm not really
their, but like to play around w/ new ideas like these.

As kwag said ealier, the "Farscape" sample is a good example of the
above GOP use. Mind you, its only a sample. I don't know how it would
look w/ high motion, etc. ...probably blocky, but for most slow scenes,
this would probably be acceptable for most newbies looking for a quicky
template for dvd to vcd fast turnarounds. For a quality freak like my
self, I haven't made up my mind about these high GOPs. I've found that
these high GOPs work on some of my encodes, and NOT on others. Its
a hit and miss game. I dont' think that one should have to encode a
whole movie, see it it will fit, and if not, re-encode again, for every
movie though. less you have lots of time on your hands.
This template is geared for: good quality, and small space, or a 1 CD
fit. Lots of people have ben trying it out, encluding myself. But, note
that not every DVD player will play this encode. You have to try it
out first and see for yourself.
Also note, I've noticed that a GOP of 1x20x3 seems to work best with a
resolution of 352x480, not 352x240. But some encodes work ok
with 352x240.

The best thing you can do is try ALL the templates kwags and sefys and
any others I've missed. But if you're really after true quality, then
you'll end up not using them. I don't even like calling them
tempaltes. being that it's just one or two things that are different
vs. the standard templates available to tmpg.

So, the key to good looking quality is the proper use of "forced film",
once this is met, and as long as you use the standard template, minus
a few bitrate changes, per what works for you, you'll no boudbt have
a good quality encode. But, it takes time to come up with just the
right (so called) template settings.
Best thing for you to do, is this:
STEP A
* use "forced film" in dvd2avi
* load up the standard SVCD tempate, and encode to svcd w/ it.
Then, you can start by fiddeling with the:
* bitrate options (ie, cq/cqvbr,etc) and thier respective values
* cropping
* color correction (some captures reqire this)
* GOP (thoug best to leave this at their defaults)
* noise (required on most captures)
settings till you come up with a combination that works for ya, and
there you have it, till the next super-duper 200min tempate hits the
airwaves, he, he....

xaanin:
-------
>> sorry, but nothing with a resolution of 352x288 will look good, no
>> matter what the bitrate is. And 128 kbps audio is low =(
You need to look into "forced film" in "dvd2avi" again. Or, give kwags
sample a lookseezzz! You're just not using the right method.
Oh, wait, maybe you're talking about Captures Yes, then I can
see your point - maybe. Less you have bad quality source captures.
I can make a pretty decent looking VCD with my current capture process.
yes, at 352x240. But, if you're talking about DVD backups, then you
need to try STEP A you'll be surprised!

Oh yeah, ...sorry for the long post.

-vhelp

[kwag]

Kwag,

I also was concerning about your reply as SVCD topyc... but I downloaded farscape and, for me, it is good enough for my home video purposes... Do you really garantee 120 min of VCD with your templates?

Second question: I have captured lots of VHS video in NTSC AVI format... if using your templates it will be converted to PAL? (meanly the framerate? or I will have to do something more?)

Thanks in advance,

Fred©
Brazil

Hi Fred:

First question:
No, I can't guarantee 120 minutes for every movie. You'll have to try it yourself. It all depends on the action of the movie, etc.

At the standard quality setting of 70, as defined in the template, I have put a lot of 120 minute movies in one CD-R. Read the messages of other people too in this thread: http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=81201

Beware, it's loooooong, so get some coffe!.
There's a lot of good info, and amusement there


As an example, last night I did "Patriot Games" at a quality setting of 74, and I fit the whole 117 minute movie in 802MB.

So, depending on your movie, your milage may vary.

Second question:
Try the PAL template that's up in the site.


And if your movie is around 90 minutes or less, you can crank up the CQ to 80 and blow away everything else as quality is concerned
Give it a shot!.


kwag

[bbb]

Kwag's farscape and cowboy clips look fine on Windvd and probably fine on your dvd player (what brand do you use? The flexible Apex?).

However, your templates are way off vcd and svcd standards and may not play properly in some dvd players, including some of the newer Pioneer ones.

VCD uses MPEG1 with constant bitrate.
SVCD uses MPEG2 with variable or constant bitrate.
Kwags clips uses MPEG1 with variable bitrate.

This could create incompatibilities on various players. My region 1 Pioneer 440 will not play PAL VCDs correctly (screen is cropped at the top and bottom) and has a 30-40 second temporary audio desync when using variable bitrate with MPEG1 clips.

Also, I noticed that most of your 352x480 clips were NTSC. Why did you use PAL for your vcd clip? Is it because PAL vcd uses a higher resolution and higher frames/second compared to NTSC vcd. Can you post a comparison between a PAL vcd and NTSC vcd clip to see if your template is good in making NTSC vcds?

Those who have NTSC sources prefer to stick with NTSC format to avoid incompatibilities with NTSC machines and possible audio desync when converting framerates from NTSC to PAL.

[kwag]

Kwag's farscape and cowboy clips look fine on Windvd and probably fine on your dvd player (what brand do you use? The flexible Apex?).

However, your templates are way off vcd and svcd standards and may not play properly in some dvd players, including some of the newer Pioneer ones.

VCD uses MPEG1 with constant bitrate.
SVCD uses MPEG2 with variable or constant bitrate.
Kwags clips uses MPEG1 with variable bitrate.

This could create incompatibilities on various players. My region 1 Pioneer 440 will not play PAL VCDs correctly (screen is cropped at the top and bottom) and has a 30-40 second temporary audio desync when using variable bitrate with MPEG1 clips.

Also, I noticed that most of your 352x480 clips were NTSC. Why did you use PAL for your vcd clip? Is it because PAL vcd uses a higher resolution and higher frames/second compared to NTSC vcd. Can you post a comparison between a PAL vcd and NTSC vcd clip to see if your template is good in making NTSC vcds?

Those who have NTSC sources prefer to stick with NTSC format to avoid incompatibilities with NTSC machines and possible audio desync when converting framerates from NTSC to PAL.

Hi bbb:

Here's a list of some compatible players that play perfectly without any audio/video sync or skip problems:

Panasonic RP-56
JVC XV-F80 7 disk changer
Sony NS300
Panasonic DMR-E20 DVD-R/DVD-RAM player/recorder.
Panasonic DVD-L10 portable player

Some Apex models ( by changing template to 352x240 and min bit rate to 600 )

As for the VCD clip, it's not mine, it was sent by bilbogod and I posted it because I didn't have any PAL samples to make. And because it's an excelent example of what can be generated from a PAL DVD.

kwag

[MrDilemma]

OK... Thanks alot for all the replies guys...but can someone answer my original question?

[SJohn]

Will Kwag's template work on captures of regular tv program like on the Discovery channel? I dont understand it because my captures are at 29.97 fps, what do I need to do so that I can feed it to kwag's template which is at 23.976 fps. If it involves that IVTC method, will someone please post the steps, progs & settings needed to do so if you have the free time? I do most of my captures at 640x480 using PICvideo at quality 18, what changes, if any, do i need to adjust if I'm capturing to mpeg2 instead of avi using PowerVCR? Hope the people reading my post understand what I'm saying coz I'm a newbie.

[kwag]

Will Kwag's template work on captures of regular tv program like on the Discovery channel? I dont understand it because my captures are at 29.97 fps, what do I need to do so that I can feed it to kwag's template which is at 23.976 fps. If it involves that IVTC method, will someone please post the steps, progs & settings needed to do so if you have the free time? I do most of my captures at 640x480 using PICvideo at quality 18, what changes, if any, do i need to adjust if I'm capturing to mpeg2 instead of avi using PowerVCR? Hope the people reading my post understand what I'm saying coz I'm a newbie.

Hi SJohn:

Yes. It will work perfectly!.
Capture at 352x480 to AVI with the Huffy CODEC.

Read this for information on IVTC and general capture guidelines.
Then you can apply the template to your captures.

http://www.inmatrix.com/articles/ivtc.shtml

There are a couple of samples in my site that are captures. The "Mixed Previews" and the "City Hall" were done via S-Video and IVTC'ed.
Those are the best captures because they are from an external DVD captured with a WinTV Go card.

The HBO capture is not as good, because I didn't do IVTC on that one.
This one was captured in a Panasonic DMR-E20 DVD-RAM.

Hope this helps,
kwag

[mikerios]

Krag-

my compliments to you,
download 3 clips and burn all 3 to a vcd in nero,
farscape well, it looks like vcd, not too good, but ok i guess, patriot games however looked really good. that was the one that caught my attention, and redplanet was ok, better than farscape, but not nearly as good as patriot games. my sony choked on it, did not recongize it, my pioneer 440 played it, but i had bad static popping on audio, i have played other svcds with no audio problems so i am not sure why it popping on such a low audio bit rate, but i'll probally try a dvd rip to your template just to see how well your template stands up, but from what I see it darn good quality.

[kwag]

Krag-

my compliments to you,
download 3 clips and burn all 3 to a vcd in nero,
farscape well, it looks like vcd, not too good, but ok i guess, patriot games however looked really good. that was the one that caught my attention, and redplanet was ok, better than farscape, but not nearly as good as patriot games. my sony choked on it, did not recongize it, my pioneer 440 played it, but i had bad static popping on audio, i have played other svcds with no audio problems so i am not sure why it popping on such a low audio bit rate, but i'll probally try a dvd rip to your template just to see how well your template stands up, but from what I see it darn good quality.

Thanks mikerios:

What is the model on your sony?. And did you burn to CD-R or CD-RW?.
I know some Sony's don't like CD-RW's.

kwag

[SJohn]

Krag, thanks for the info, but Will I get better result if I capture with your suggested settings (352x480 to AVI with the Huffy CODEC) but at a higher resolution ? And do I leave the Huffy CODEC setting at default?

The info site mentioned that "Not all NTSC broadcast can be IVTCed, IVTC can only be done if the source was originally shot on 24fps film." So does that mean those that are not wont work with your template?

[kwag]

Krag, thanks for the info, but Will I get better result if I capture with your suggested settings (352x480 to AVI with the Huffy CODEC) but at a higher resolution ?

The info site mentioned that "Not all NTSC broadcast can be IVTCed, IVTC can only be done if the source was originally shot on 24fps film." So does that mean those that are not wont work with your template?

Just try to capture at the resolution that you are going to encode.

There's no sense in capturing above your final resolution. You won't get better quality.

And yes, it's true that you can't IVTC every capture!. Only if its original source was 24fps, then you can. If this is the case, just change the output fps of the template from 23.976 to 29.97. That's it!.

kwag

[mikerios]

Kwag-( got it right this time .. )

it's a Sony DVP 550S, and it likes cd-rws not cd-r, I have yet to successfully burn any vcd in cd-r format that will play on the Sony, the Pioneer 440 however just about plays anything I feed at it. BTW one of the reasons why the farside looked so / so was I realized is was in PAL format and the playback stretched to full screen so any quality encoding problems were more apparant in the playback.

[xaanin]

Welp: 352x288 will produce blockiness, that seems like a simple fact unless you use noise reduction or smoothing, which would ruin the sharpness. I prefer 480x576 for resolution. And most of the things I encode are DivX source (I know, but still high quality divx source). Tweaking Kwags templates a bit to try them out...

Kwag: Imo decent image quality, but audio is too low bitrate for me =(

Edit: But seems like a nice template if you up the resolution and up the audio bitrate some

Edit2: Except for the fact that my DVD player won't play it...

[shad0w4life]

Ah but there are problems with TMPEG and MPEG-1 ecoding, namely IT FUX UP REAL GOOD. I have yet to make a Mpeg-1 Movie that will play properly, Tmpeg just doesn't seem to like Divx 5.

[Sefy]

Just wanted to say great work kwag! keep it up!

[Devnull]

Okay, well kwag's template seems pretty good, except I needed to bump up the audio bitrate. Is there any way predict how large something will be when encoding a VBR mpeg1 like this?

[kwag]

Is there any way predict how large something will be when encoding a VBR mpeg1 like this?

Unfortunately, for CQ, no!.

Read about it here:
http://tangentsoft.net/video/mpeg/enc-modes.html

kwag

[stevemoley]

Kwag,

just to let you know...

i encoded "the matrix" using ur pal template @352 x 288 and got a high quality vcd at 570meg.

thanks for all ur work! :-)


-moley