BluRay 3D ripping (Full Frame rip and playback)

[XAKEP]

Hi guys I have few questions on 3D ripping and playing. I usually get REMUXED ISOs and RIP them in to MKVs. In my understanding REMUX means untouched movie without any extras or menus. Yet if movie is in 3D it'll include both versions of the movie , correct ? My first question is how do you select such movie to play in 3D or 2D without menus.

Second is ripping such ISO. In my understanding 3D works when left eye see one image and right eye sees slightly different image and it happens so fast that you don't really process it as different and all you see is depth of picture. Now in numbers. On blu-ray both images are 1080p or 1920x1080 or sometimes x800 or 820 and so on, yet when you rip each image is only 50% of it's original size. So here is my question. When you rip 3D Blu-ray with half frame option do you get 50% less quality or interlace image and how do I get about getting 3D full frame to play. The thing is if only option is to use ISO image and not MKV, that's fine with me, but all 3D movies I've tried I can only play in 2D because I don't know how to switch to 3D mode. I tried DVDfab Media Player, XBMC and WMP. I don't see this option. Basically I want to watch BluRay in it's original quality whatever it takes, if possible let me know how to do it. Also that movie that I can't play in 3D rip in 3D MKV without any problems because it select .ssif file if boom, you got yourself a 3D. I am just little bit confused on this 3D matter and FULL frame and RMUXed iso playback in 3D. If possible let me know.


Thank you !

[dannyboy48888]

in MakeMKV there is a option to just pick the 2D version, and in TSMuxer after loading the proper MPLS it will give you the option. The resolution is 1080p and close in size regardless as the other eye is only slightly off and only the differences need extra space to encode.

[Cornucopia]

Hi guys I have few questions on 3D ripping and playing. I usually get REMUXED ISOs and RIP them in to MKVs. In my understanding REMUX means untouched movie without any extras or menus. Yet if movie is in 3D it'll include both versions of the movie , correct ? My first question is how do you select such movie to play in 3D or 2D without menus.

Second is ripping such ISO. In my understanding 3D works when left eye see one image and right eye sees slightly different image and it happens so fast that you don't really process it as different and all you see is depth of picture. Now in numbers. On blu-ray both images are 1080p or 1920x1080 or sometimes x800 or 820 and so on, yet when you rip each image is only 50% of it's original size. So here is my question. When you rip 3D Blu-ray with half frame option do you get 50% less quality or interlace image and how do I get about getting 3D full frame to play. The thing is if only option is to use ISO image and not MKV, that's fine with me, but all 3D movies I've tried I can only play in 2D because I don't know how to switch to 3D mode. I tried DVDfab Media Player, XBMC and WMP. I don't see this option. Basically I want to watch BluRay in it's original quality whatever it takes, if possible let me know how to do it. Also that movie that I can't play in 3D rip in 3D MKV without any problems because it select .ssif file if boom, you got yourself a 3D. I am just little bit confused on this 3D matter and FULL frame and RMUXed iso playback in 3D. If possible let me know.


Thank you !

You can't get "remuxed" ISOs with 3DBD. To do as close as possible would require demuxing, decoding, re-encoding (this time to something like SbS AVC instead of MVC), and THEN remuxing to a 2DBD masquerading as 3D. But there is TRULY NO APP available to do what you want done.

3DBDs include 3D material (L & R views) that can either be encoded in "2D-compatible" mode or "2D-Incompatible" mode. One element of incompatible mode is an internalized command (aka built into the encoding and/or the playlist/cliplist) that denies the use of the 3D disc in 2D view (for example, just decoding the "L" view). Some major titles are encoded one way, some the other.

The way the 3D and the 2D are built is quite ingenious: there is a BASE stream (which is usually, e.g. the "L" view) and a DEPENDENT enhancement stream (which could be considered the "R-L" view). Simple math can combine the B+D streams in this way: L + (R-L) = R + L - L = R view. While the BASE view is encoded as the equivalent of a standard AVC, with the usual IBBPBBPBBPBB type of picture (though with a few actual additional flags or enhancement features that are ignored by standard AVC decoders). The DEPENDENT stream incorporates a series of P'B'B'P'B'B'P'B'B'P'B'B', where the P' and B' picture types are influenced by both the standard cadence but also by the corresponding picture in the Base stream. So, while it's not some brand new scheme or rocket science, it's not something that current AVC decoders are equipped to accommodate. The BASE and DEPENDENT streams are interleaved on disc in the form of:
[DEPENDENT 1st GOPs][BASE 1st GOPs][DEPENDENT 2nd GOPs][BASE 2nd GOPs]...
This is done so that the dependent stream is already in a memory buffer making the decoding of both streams to be nearly instantaneously available (in sync together) after the BASE stream is read.

Note: this leapfrogging is related to the presence of SSIF & M2TS files in this way...
each series of [] above is a SSIF packet/file, and each series of alternating [BASE *] files above ALSO is seen as a M2TS packet/file. But because of the use of UDF hard links, the [BASE *] files that correspond to BOTH half the SSIF files and the whole of the M2TS files are shared by same data location, greatly saving space.

In this way, the 2D is in a sense one of the main elements of the 3D version, so they cannot really be divorced.

Now, most players that support 3D automatically engage 3D mode if they detect the presence of 3DBD (MVC) material. Some make it easier. If, in the case of "2D-compatible" 3D material, one might want to watch in 2D, the player automatically HOPS over the DEPENDENT streams and reads only the BASE streams, in the same manner that the player knows how to read multi-angle titles. Indeed, the technology behind multi-angle was the starting point for allowing 3D (as my patent attempt can attest ).

3D: Left eye should see only left image, Right eye should see right image (with hopefully very little to NO crosstalk, aka ghosting). This MAY occur simultaneously, in the case of Passive Polarized, Infitec, or Anaglyph display formats, or occur sequentially (but near instantaneously), in the case of Active LC Shutter display formats or in Active+Passive LCshutter+Polarized formats.
But you misunderstand 3DBD - what is encoded on the disc are 2 complete 1920x1080 @ 24FPS (aka 23.976FPS). There are NO legit ways x820 or x800 can be encoded to ANY form of authored BD.

So, when you rip a 2D BD, you get 1 1920x1080@24FPS view, and when you rip a 3D BD, you get 2 1920x1080@24FPS views. What you are thinking of, this "50%" idea, is something that only exists if you intend to decode the MVC and re-encode to a SbS or TAB 1/2rez AVC file (whether contained in MP4 or MKV) for use on the web or in generic media players.

BTW, with a few exceptions*, once you have created a converted MP4 or MKV copy of a 3DBD rip, it is now for all machines' understanding, only a 2D type stream. To have the file(s) be seen in 3D, one now has to MANUALLY set the display to consider the incoming "3D-within-a-2D" signal as 3D, as well as manually describe which layout format the file is using (whether SbS, TAB, FieldInterlaced, etc).

The only way you can truly watch a 3D in its original quality is to do 1:1 ISO rip of the WHOLE disc, as-is. And then one can play via a player that can read ISO files, or mount the ISO in a disc emulator and play with a player that sees the ISO as a virtual disc, or burn the ISO to 50GB backup BD-R/E and play as one normally would. Or just use the original disc.

<edit>There is NO credible evidence for the ability to do a BD50->BD25 rip+reduce, nor for the ability to do a rip+removeExtras, while maintaining FULL 3D MVC quality. From ANY app.</edit>

Now, one CAN do a 3DBD rip and decode the MVC to separate L+R full views, then either keep as separate streams or composite their images WITHOUT reducing their resolution. However, in either of these scenarios, there are difficulties:
1. The bandwidth & filesize remains at least 2x what is normal for standard 2D. (It is only ~1.3-1.55x the equivalent 2D while encoded as MVC)
2. Because the file is being re-encoded using something not nearly as efficient as MVC, one must use a higher bitrate, and even then, there is possible loss of quality.
3. Only HTPCs are currently known to be able to play them.

Hope that helps,

Scott

*I have determined that one can include stereo3D SEI formatting metadata within an AVC stream (which can be included within M2TS, MP4 or MKV containers). A player that recognizes this metadata, could be able to pass the SEI formatting along to an HDMI 1.4a channel, which THEN would allow for the 3D-capable HDMI 1.4a-compatible display to be able to AUTOMATICALLY engage 3D mode (and in the proper 3D layout formatting). This includes files that are already post-rip & post-conversion, and formatted as 1/2rez (SbS or TAB, etc).

[dannyboy48888]

Thanks Scott, I suck at explaining stuff in understandable terms

[XAKEP]

Scott, Thank you very much for explaining me this, I finally can reference (Cause no way I understood everything in there) your answer to all questions I may have because I simply could not find info on all this Blu-Ray specifics. One thing kinda hit me when you made a connection between 2D SBS image that system generate in to 3D by stretching and overlapping, it almost like ....not fake but not really 3D that was intended by designers, instead of 3D that using very complicated way to produce an image. And here are my conclusion after reading your text plus I did some research and live testing of 3D and non 3D material and here are the results.

My only goal was to get maximum quality Video and Audio and build a digital Library where all movies will be easily accessible in one place that I don't have to change anything, just select movie, select 2D or 3D version (depends on a disk I guess) and enjoy. I must say that large hard drives couldn't come any sooner because if you do plan to do what I do, prepare to learn word TeraBytes.


So, With 2D content it's somewhat simple. I use DVDfab that allows me to create MKV within 10 minutes. Don't re encode anything, select copy video and copy audio and boom you have BluRay quality MKV with HD sound (in Video and Audio options check box next to video copy, audio copy) I did check 1:1 iso and 2D mkv looks identical on my 55 Samsung TV (UN55C7500)

With 3D content it's a bit more problem. As you explained that ONLT real solution is to play 1:1 ISO and I totally have no problem with it except on how to play it. And not so much what software to use but what works best. I want to use XBMC as my primary Media Solution. I have dedicated HTPC that connected to Pioneer AVR and AVR goes in to my Samsung HDTV. Everything is okay but I must say they need to work out bugs because it does amazing job on MKV files but BluRay ISOs are a bit difficult. I must say exactly the same about DVDFab MEdia Player and PowerDVD 13.


To save space from now on I'll be storing 1:1 BluRay ISOs instead of MKVs that hopefully have both versions available so I don't have to have one MKV with 2D version and one ISO with 3D version. I guess it's the way to go. Once again Scott thank you very much your info is VERY helpful and I must say that moderators may be should copy and stick your answer as sticky post as technical explanation. Scott if you or anyone have experience playing ISO with least amount of trouble let me know on what you guys use.




P.S.


I want to ask you something if you want to create 3D MKV, how to determine what is the optimal Bit rate for specific movie. Because DVDFab have High quality option but it's only 9207 kbps for one I am about to show you and it's way too small.


This BluRay ISO of Man Of Steel that have 3D version in it and in my understanding 2 files that responsible for whole movie are 00002.m2ts and 00003.m2ts


Here info on both:


==============================
General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : V:\BDMV\STREAM\00002.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 27.6 GiB
Duration : 2h 23mn
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 27.6 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 48.0 Mbps


Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 2h 23mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive


Audio #1
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : DTS
Format/Info : Digital Theater Systems
Format profile : MA / Core
Mode : 16
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Muxing mode : Stream extension
Codec ID : 134
Duration : 2h 23mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : Unknown / 1 509 Kbps
Channel(s) : 8 channels / 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, Back: L R, LFE / Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Compression mode : Lossless / Lossy

==================================================


General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : V:\BDMV\STREAM\00003.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 6.47 GiB
Duration : 2h 23mn
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 6 473 Kbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 48.0 Mbps


Video
ID : 4114 (0x1012)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Stereo High@L4.1
MultiView_Count : 2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : 32
Duration : 2h 23mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 6 204 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.125
Stream size : 6.20 GiB (96%)





Because audio is copied in it's original quality and only video is being re-encoded with h.264 Bit Rate is asked in Video field only therefore I need to calculate optimal bit rate not for whole thing but video part only. If possible looking at this 2 stream what best Bit Rate I should put not to waste space and not to degrade quality.


Thank you, thank you very much

[Cornucopia]

ISO files are playable from HTPCs, certainly. Particularly from something like VLC. Many other players could play an ISO if the ISO was "mounted" in a Virtual disc emulator (e.g. DaemonTools, WinCDEmu, AnyDVD).
The difficulty I see is in using ISOs from a hardware device/set top. Since devices that support ISOs are fewer and farther between (unless you count HTPCs masked as general media players), the idea of keeping ISOs, no matter HOW pristine they may be, might NOT be the best strategy - even for 3DBD ISOs.

So the next best quality 3D option is 2xView files (whether dual files, dual-muxed streams, or the more common full rez SbS or TAB). But I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that a 3840x1080 or 1920x2160 sized videos are likely to crash the vast majority of devices: they are just TOO LARGE of a size for them to be smoothly played back, or even playable at all. And the other 2 options listed are barely recognized.

The next best quality option after that is the common one where the 2xView is anamorphically squeezed to a standard 2D format, namely: SbS (side-by-side), or TAB (top-and-bottom) @ 1920x1080. These are known as "frame compatible" 3D formats, because they FIT into the standard 2D format. Better still would be "service compatible" 3D formats, such as straight copy MVC files. The cool thing about service compatible files is that they act like 2D to standard 2D players, but automatically act like full-quality 3D to enhanced, 3D-aware players. The PROBLEM with service compatible files is: 1-creating them or converting to them is still quite difficult, 2-almost NO players (software or hardware) are fully service-compatible 3D aware. Good in the future (hopefully), but not right now.

So you need to create, for example, a SbS frame-compatible file. What would the optimal bitrate be, comparable to it's MVC source?
A good rule of thumb would be: if a 2D image looks good quality at a certain bitrate (aka 1x), an MVC is likely to be equivalent quality at ~1.5x bitrate, and a SbS would be similar. However, since the SbS is a re-encode, 1 generation down, it's going to lose quality to some degree. You can't change that, but you can somewhat offset it by encoding to higher bitrate. So encode at ~2x.

AFA apps, you can use DVDFab or 3DBDBuster, etc to do both the ripping & conversion to frame-compatible SbS version.

Scott

[XAKEP]

Thank you for information. I just finished my tests of pretty much 2 movies that "if they look good everything will look good" type of thing. And I finally decided to keep everything in MKV (2D Version in uncompressed untouched just straight video copy) and with 3D I really found 1 thing that I do see that's look worse from original Blu-Ray disk, it's shades. Where scene is dark or picture transition I do see this "rough" dark shades when I play ISO Shades are much much softer. But this is something that I had to look for and not popping out at me. I tested Man of Steel 3D, Star Track Into Darkness 3D and The Great Gatsby 3D Blu-rays. And all of them gave me the same result. when ssif file is let's say 35GB I made 40GB MKV with SBS image and one DTS-HD track. Quality is virtually the same. I do not see much if anything on my 55 Samsung LCD TV. And Shades, well I'll have to live with it. And also both MKVs uncompressed 2D or H.264 SBS 3D are compatible with my (I think all current) HDTV if you'd connect external hard drive right in to the TV via USB.

So overall I am happy and I am kinda glad that I ended up using MKV because it's a single extension and I don't have to switch programs to play files.