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  1. Hello all, I have been trying to make a choice on which software to buy but i cannot get a definitive answer.

    I am trying to decide between Sony pro Vegas 12 and Avid media composer 7. I have never touched an editing software so I am a beginner in the purest sense. I asked a friend who owns an advertising company and he just said get what feels right (that doesn't work for me)


    I am buying these on student rates so they are the same price ($250)


    Here are the pros and cons I currently have made for each. Once again, I am a beginner so I do not know what a bunch of the tech specs mean.


    Sony Vegas 12 pros.


    -unlimited channels for audio and video
    - 4k resolution support
    -1080p-60fps support
    I use soundforge for my audio editing so it works with it




    Avid Pros:


    - Under the student program i get 4 years of free upgrades
    - Professional grade software


    Any advice that you guys can give would be awesome. I am only looking at these 2 items. I have no desire to pay adobe a monthly fee for Premiere.
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  2. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Do you plan on collaborating with other editors & edit houses? - Get AVID MC.
    Do you plan on being a "one man band"? - Get Sony Vegas Pro.

    Do you plan on working with 3D and generating 3DBlu-ray discs immediately? - Get Vegas (for now).

    What hardware do you have? Avid's has a somewhat higher requirement than Sony's, but if your hardware fits the bill, edit timeline & other workflow processes likely run a little smoother.

    Avid's forte has to do with workflow enhancements & efficiency for HIGH END needs, so certain tricky types of editing is very straightforward to do, and the interface is familiar to old school film & video editing professionals. If you won't be having those needs anytime soon, and since you mention you've never edited before, those specific strengths aren't the deal-makers they might have been.

    If you ALREADY have Soundforge, you'll find Vegas has a similar interface, so that's probably another few points in its favor.

    Scott
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  3. Sorry, my build is

    Asus p8p67 V3. Mobo
    16GB G.Skill ram
    i5 2500k overclock to 4.3GHz
    Antec water cooler
    12TB HDD space
    Gigabyte GTX 770 4GB card
    Corsair HTX 850 Watt PSU

    Thank you for replying to me in such a straight forward manner.
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  4. Avid is more fussy about system requirements, be sure you look them over on Avid.com. Do not go off spec on OS or QuickTime requirements. Your graphics card though not approved should work. Avid is also more "limited" in terms do what kinds of files it accepts because it is geared towards broadcast and feature films. Your i5 may be a bit underpowered once you get into multiple tracks. That said, it is still the industry standard and the most pleasant to use for actual editing.

    Vegas is very resource efficient and has a well designed workflow that is very different from Avid's. It gives you more bells and whistles out if the box, but it is still an industry outlier (though a well-respected one.)

    In other words, get what feels right.
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  5. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    That's a tough question. I have always used Sony Vegas Pro for 5+ years. I learned to do everything "manually" though. If I saw an effect or transition or whatever, I broke it down in my mind and tried to recreate it. I'm a self-starter. I don't like canned drag and drop. I want to roll-my-own.

    What's your desire? You want to be an employee? or a creator? That matters a lot. Like Scott says, if you're looking to get into the Hollywood crowd, go Avid.

    Broadcast is different. Broadcast is doable in Vegas Pro. You might want to get Boris Continuum Complete once you get your wings.

    Going to school and "wanting" to do editing, is different from having the "ability" to do it. It gets VERY deep, VERY fast. So long as your mind knows how to do the work, that's what really matters.

    And for that reason, Sony Vegas Pro is an excellent learning environment. It's very flexible and customizable to fit individual style. Not a rigid "One-Way or the Highway" program, like Premiere or FCP. Avid has a bad reputation for not listening to user feedback, and only interested in money, money, and money. You have to buy THEIR gear too.

    I recently learned that the pros usually output to PNG sequences for final render, and Vegas can certainly work in StillSeq's and do that as well. The difference between software is more political than practical. The Apple people have their own clan too.

    There's rivalry, social circles, egos, tradition, dogma, all kinds of forces that shape the editing tools landscape. Hell, Walter Murch retired on a big payout from Apple to endorse FCP on the way out. Then Apple sold a bunch of expensive "Hollywood Certified" Apple setups to those old stooges over their, then ended up dumping it and moving back to consumer editing.

    By the time you get out of school LightWorks might be the NLE of the day. Or some other Johnny-come-lately like Apple again. Avid just holds on because of name recognition by the old farts. A lot of independent shops popping up too. Here in LA, everybody and their brother is a Producer or out shooting a film.

    I see kids on skateboards running around with Canon XA20's all the time. It's a wide open industry. A good book to read is "The Art and Science of Digital Compositing". That book goes A-Z from color theory to CGI animation. Took me two years to absorb most of it. Keep it on your toilet tank and read a little every morning. It's software-independent. All concepts.

    Another one is "Digital Compositing for Film and Video".-Steve Wright

    Last edited by budwzr; 15th Oct 2013 at 01:15.
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  6. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Avid does NOT just hold on. There is still complicated stuff you can do effortlessly ONLY in their interface. And just TRY to whip through project after project with the speed that only they are capable of. I like and have used them all (incl. Avid, Apple, Sony, Adobe, Canopus, Matrox and Media100, and dabbled with Lightworks and Blender) and there is nothing that comes close in my book.
    Their ProTools is even more that way in the DAW arena.
    Plus, they have made real effort in the last 3 years or so in listening and opening up the systems. They have more tiered user products for the varying levels of professional features needed, have allowed connection to much more 3rd party hardware, and are improving on mix-and-matching simultaneouly with different formats - all stuff that they were reluctant to do in the past.

    Actually, just the fact that you could get a student copy for $250 of either one of those seems to me to be more of a steal for the AVID, especially if it is the suite.

    I agree with smrpix, choose what fits best for your workflow and style.

    Scott
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  7. Ok so to answer Budwzr question, I am actually a Chiropractic doctoral student, but I feel into owning an internet radio station ( rivalcastmedia ), I have been working on learning audio editing for about 4 years now and now we want to branch out into video stuff, so this is why i am trying to learn it. I dont want to get a job in Hollywood or anything like that.


    I think I am going to get Sony Vegas pro 12 first just so I can learn the basics and since I do not graduate until June of 2014 I might be able to buy Avid just before so I will still get my 4 years of free upgrades.
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  8. Avid, Vegas and Premiere (which has improved dramatically in the last couple of years) all have 30 day free trials. Take advantage of it.

    Originally Posted by Lilrex View Post
    since I do not graduate until June of 2014 I might be able to buy Avid just before so I will still get my 4 years of free upgrades.
    The Avid free upgrades assume you are in school for 4 years, and you agree not to use it on professional projects.

    FWIW, my bias is the same as Cornucopia. All the products are good, but I go with Avid when I actually want to get work done.
    Last edited by smrpix; 15th Oct 2013 at 06:48.
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  9. Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    Avid, Vegas and Premiere (which has improved dramatically in the last couple of years) all have 30 day free trials. Take advantage of it.

    Originally Posted by Lilrex View Post
    since I do not graduate until June of 2014 I might be able to buy Avid just before so I will still get my 4 years of free upgrades.
    The Avid free upgrades assume you are in school for 4 years, and you agree not to use it on professional projects.

    FWIW, my bias is the same as Cornucopia. All the products are good, but I go with Avid when I actually want to get work done.

    well anything i do at the moment will be done for my own personal use. I wont have the skills to put out anything under the RivalCast banner for a while, so the professional use thing wont bother me too badly. But for $250 I cant go wrong.


    I am still leaning towards Vegas.
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  10. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Scott mentioned ProTools, which is the "Audio Workstation" of the Avid crowd. But actually, if you look at the interface, it's a knockoff of Ableton Live.

    Ableton Live is the DAW of choice for the latest generation of "Musicologists". Music today is about grooves, motifs, sampling, midi controllers, and live DJ's.

    If you're into making music, you might check out Ableton. That's the DAW I use, and I can't imagine using anything else. Ableton and Vegas both offer extreme freedom and flexibility. That's important to me. I want to roll-my-own.

    I like making a little ditty on my keyboard, then adding some percussions, and synths, right there live in realtime. It's very rewarding and FUN. Not a bunch of dials and meters. Hahaha Ableton is great for making podcasts too. Has a Vocoder built in.

    Ableton is from Berlin, and those Germans really know how to make good stuff. I think ProTools is made in "New Yawk City", hahaha. (Joke) Remember the Pace salsa commercials?
    Last edited by budwzr; 15th Oct 2013 at 10:24.
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  11. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Hahaha, I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here, but if you go to the Avid website, you'll see a lot of razz-a-ma-tazz and theatrics, but little else in terms of details. The devil is in the details, right?

    That's the Boris fX engine plugged into their interface. You can get that for Vegas too for $600, not thousands. And they claim support for mix and match media, but there's fine print attached. $$$$.

    Every little thing is $$$$$. They just license other people's technology. They're a middleman. Like Adobe and Apple. Vegas was built from the ground floor by a dedicated team that was acquired by Sony, but still operates autonomously.

    Avid was like that at one time too, and had a lock on the market, so they dragged their ass and just milked it. There was a customer revolt a few years ago. They almost went kapoop.

    The media they show on their demos can easily be made in Vegas too. That's original art, made by a highly skilled motion graphics artist, not something you can do simply by buying their product. It's just assembled in the NLE, not actually created. You'd have to spend thousands.

    That's the downside of being in the Hollywood pipeline. It's not necessarily a higher standard, just a higher price. The core NLE is just the tip of the iceberg. If you set up camp on that iceberg, you better have deep pockets, or you're stuck in a tin can with no windows.
    Last edited by budwzr; 15th Oct 2013 at 11:00.
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  12. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    I don't like Avid or Vegas.
    I prefer Premiere. Or Final Cut for a runner-up.

    I bought Avid a year or two ago. Big mistake. Hate it. I found Premiere easier.
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  13. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    @budwzr, I think we've talked about PT before. What you seem to be doing has a lot to do with music composing, arranging & mixing with a tip of the hat towards DJ-ing.
    Ever try to record 35 people for ADR, edit, process, add sound effects & mix into 5000 game-ready clips in a week? Or sync & conform to multiple versions of a movie and create 3 x 48+ track live(+automated)-mixable stems? PT can do that (I HAVE done that) -I highly doubt Ableton or any other app could.
    So, lots depends on where you are coming from and what you intend to do with it.
    BTW, you need to look up the definition of "musicologist". Not what you think it was. I am longtime friends (and former bandmate) with one - I know.
    Also, not counting your Reality and Teen/Schock BS, Hollywood stuff IS a higher standard.

    Scott
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  14. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    That's what I'm saying too. For you 1% it may be "all that", but the vast majority of editors don't need that. What we need is bang-for-buck.

    I think the cost of Avid reflects the low number of user base, than actual bang-for-buck, and like you said, if you want to record 100 people singing.

    Same for FCP. Expensive? Yes. Awesome? No.

    Higher Standards? Broadcast is 1080. I know Hollywood is 2K, but Vegas does 2/4K too. 32bit float. 10bit 4:4:4 too. Compositing is basic but you can add Boris too.

    Musicologist? I thought I made that up for laughs. So it really exists? Hahaha. Proves my brain is still sharp. I was thinking a musicologist is to music, like a gynecologist is to .... One who loves his work.

    I'm with Smurf. Except for the FCP part. And Scott, I know you know your stuff. Much more than me. Just having a proletariat discussion. We little people have to blow off steam once in a while. We want to eat cake too down here in steerage.

    (Uh, oh. My wife wants me to take out the trash)
    Last edited by budwzr; 15th Oct 2013 at 14:25.
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  15. ok, and on that note, Vegas pro 12 it is. Thanks guys, you've been an amazing help. I will definitely keep kicking around these forums and try to learn as much as i can.
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  16. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    This forum is an incredible resource for those that have ears to hear. There are several great minds here, like Scott, and he's gracious enough to put up with me. I'm passionate about Sony Vegas Pro. And you will be too. Good luck with it.
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  17. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    I don't mind the ribbing too much, though I sometimes tire of it. Just so long as one understands that, among the Pro & SemiPro NLE & DAW & Photog & 3D & Compositing apps, ALL have their merits and NONE are really bad. They got where they are for a reason. You can't really go wrong if you've done your homework and match up the one most appropriate to your needs.

    Picking on one or 2 of them too much begins to sound a little like sour grapes, though, so don't go overboard.

    @Lilrex, make good use of the manual & online tutorials, youtube examples & the VASST user site (though it's a little outdated now, IMO), and you won't go wrong using Vegas. I do not want to downplay it at all, as I own 3 different copies (6, 8, 10) and expect to get v12 very soon.
    As you can probably guess from my posts, I also own Avid Media Composer, XpressProHD & Avid DV (all somewhat older versions, unfortunately), as well as 2 versions of PremierePro, and on my Mac an old copy of FinalCutPro. I'm not made of money, though. ebay is a wonderful resource for getting things inexpensively!

    Scott
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    Hey


    I know the discussion is kinda over, but, to add my 2 cents :
    I've been in editing for 10 years, and i concur to what has been said here.

    I've been using AVID for years, use Vegas daily, and edited several projects on FCP/Premiere.


    My experience is :


    - Vegas is fast, intuitive, and a very good choice for begginers who arent used to editing, even for "affordable" configs.
    Once mastered, it has really strong potential, and you really can do a lot of things for the price.
    Very good for quick, short deadlines, "one-man" projects.


    - FCP (not the X version) WAS good & cheap, and will be remembered as a remarquable piece of software for the price, coz it could compete with Adobe's Product, way more expensive. It could have been the future of editing, and it definitely opened video market to small but talented companies. But...Apple is now running backwards. Beh...forget it


    - Premiere keeps getting better and better.
    Especially for complete post production workflow.
    All the more with CC suite, it is now a strong and complete editing soft, which gains strength with the wonderful way it can "communicate" with others softs is the suite (Flash, PS, AE, etc.) : Project sharing/Dynamic Link is a bless. Unfortunately, i must say I dont appreciate the cloud / monthly licence way Adobe is taking...
    Too bad.


    - AVID has a hard learning curve, kinda complex, but is strong, reliable, and maybe the best of all....if only you have the structure/hardware which comes along. (Network features with multiple workstations are beast.)
    On "pure editing" level, definitely my favorite. Too bad it is that costly




    For what I've read about you, and your projects, you're making the good choice with Sony Vegas.


    Good luck
    Last edited by CyberOtter; 15th Oct 2013 at 17:55.
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  19. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    VASST has been behind times for a while, but trying to get out some more current stuff now. John Rofrano over there is well respected. I see he's doing some spots for Boris to help them get up to speed with the times too.

    Boris is still a viable set of tools but I bought into HitFilm now so I'm gonna stick with it if it keeps getting better. Check out HitFilm for cheap Motion Graphics and fX.
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  20. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CyberOtter View Post
    ... Unfortunately, i must say I dont appreciate the cloud / monthly licence way Adobe is taking...
    Too bad...
    Yeah, I don't get it either. I work on a laptop and take it out in the field frequently. If I'm in a small town or remote region, which frequently I am, I end up with a very slow connection or none at all.

    Hopefully they really mean that the software is "Cloud Based", but you always have the bulk of it on your machine.

    And what happens if you don't make the payments for a few months because you had a medical problem or injury? When you come back do you have to still pay for the time lapse?

    I wonder if they will have a "Daily Rate"? Sometimes I go several days without editing anything. That would bug me that I'm paying for something time-based, so there's pressure not to "waste". I think many editors are OCD to begin with, you almost have to be, because there's so many minutia details involved.

    And "Adobe Air" itself seems to need updating frequently. Pandora uses it on desktops, as a "widget" player, and half the time I just use the browser version instead because I tire of always having to update the widget version. Same for Adobe Reader and Java. No-no, it's not mature yet. This stuff should be done during idle time. In the background. Like Apps on Android.
    Last edited by budwzr; 16th Oct 2013 at 11:46.
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  21. Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    Hopefully they really mean that the software is "Cloud Based", but you always have the bulk of it on your machine.
    It's cloud-based licensing, everything is on your machine. There is an option to store footage (and I suppose projects) in the cloud but it is not necessary.

    Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    And what happens if you don't make the payments for a few months because you had a medical problem or injury? When you come back do you have to still pay for the time lapse?
    Good question.

    Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    I wonder if they will have a "Daily Rate"?
    I like it, but I suspect the terms would be onerous.
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  22. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    It's cloud-based licensing, everything is on your machine. There is an option to store footage (and I suppose projects) in the cloud but it is not necessary.
    OK. That sounds much better.

    Sounds like they're using the cellphone pricing/sales strategy. You get the phone free or cheap, but the cost of the monthly service is inflated.

    Some carriers started selling phones for actual value, and you get a lower monthly fee too. So they took the shenanigans out of it. But that's the way is should be. Phone and plan should be separate.

    ATT used to only lease phones in the early days of telephone, to boost profits and lock out competitors. Even way back then ATT was a greedy arrogant company, as they are today.

    And don't get me started on Time-Warner.

    The American ideal of freedom hinges on robust competition. Nowadays the FTC has become like the FAA, in that that just rubber-stamp everything, and now prices are being fixed due to collusion and monopolies. Manufacturers are in on it too. They inflate the MSRP to help the retailers charge more.

    It's like we're going backwards in time to the old JP Morgan railroad tycoon days, where the richest guy really runs America. The "Golden Rule". Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

    Anyway, I'm not going to go off on a tangent because this is getting a little OT.
    Last edited by budwzr; 16th Oct 2013 at 12:12.
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  23. Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    Sounds like they're using the cellphone pricing/sales strategy. You get the phone free or cheap, but the cost of the monthly service is inflated.
    The one good value-added service (for me) is that I get to use Illustrator, Acrobat and Dreamweaver, which I couldn't justify buying on their own, but really need from time to time.
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  24. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Well, you're going "all in" and drinking the full kool-aid then. The way I budget is use cheaper "utility" software, like CorelDraw, Inkscape, M$ Digital Image Pro (defunkt), and whatever opensource stuff I can scrounge up.

    Then I throw my money on the main NLE(s). Like VegasPro, and I also have Hitfilm instead of Boris.
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  25. Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    Well, you're going "all in" and drinking the full kool-aid then. The way I budget is use cheaper "utility" software, like CorelDraw, Inkscape, M$ Digital Image Pro (defunkt), and whatever opensource stuff I can scrounge up.

    Then I throw my money on the main NLE(s). Like VegasPro, and I also have Hitfilm instead of Boris.
    I've used many of the cheaper utilities, makes me appreciate the "real" thing.

    But yes, there's no question over the years Adobe has slowly reeled me in app by app, offer by offer.
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  26. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    I recently purchased PShop for S-Pen tablets ($10), and yes it's very good. In fact, It has just the right features I need on a tablet app.

    I do get tired of using multiple programs to achieve the results I want, but I have so many different needs, it's expensive to go Adobe. One of my cheapee softwares is Aurora 3D Animation. PShop just can't do this stuff.

    That's the problem, if you want to mix newskool with oldskool, it ain't workin'. You still have to buy 5 different products. PShop does raster, Illustrator does vector, and there's no overlap.

    Adobe does that to get extra moohla. They don't merge PShop/Illustrator into a single program because that's counterproductive to the bottom line. $$$$$

    M$ DigImgPro combines both. A perfect solution that never caught wind. That's why it's defunkt now, but still highly usable. It's not that deep, but it's 90%. It's short on transform tools.

    The basic working principles of this stuff hasn't changed in years. SVG has been around forever. Only recently did the WWW standards support it. So now it's like New Style, but actually it's old hat.
    Last edited by budwzr; 16th Oct 2013 at 14:07.
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  27. Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    it's expensive to go Adobe... You still have to buy 5 different products. PShop does raster, Illustrator does vector, and there's no overlap.
    Can't disagree with you on that.

    I simultaneously resent and admire Adobe's pricing. They tread a fine line charging more than you think you should have to pay, but not more than they're worth.
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  28. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    And a lot of the newer stuff is getting licensed out to new startups like HitFilm, and you can pick up particle gens, tracking, beat reactors, etc. for pennies on the dollah compared to the big brands.

    Granted, the new features are slimline versions, but still good for a lot of things. On YT nobody knows the difference. Hahaha

    I like professional tools too. Don't get me wrong. But I'm not a pro, and don't want to be. I'm just an amateur artiste' for now, until digital signage comes of age. Not interested in movie making so much.

    Although if I can stumble into a good documentary idea I might do one.

    Whew! I'm gonna get kicked out of here. Way OT. hahaha
    Last edited by budwzr; 16th Oct 2013 at 14:26.
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  29. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    I still stand by Vegas Pro. You can turn everyday crap from a camcorder into a Hollywood piece. I shot this with my Sony HDR-710pj. I love that damn camcorder. Check out how I blinged it up. See if you like the "after". Looks like he's gettin ready to buss-a-capp-off in her asse, yes?

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/135518/Animal.m2t
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