Trying to record VHS from the 80's (From TV) with encryption? Help?

[AnthraxFan1987]

Hi,
I would extremely be grateful if someone can help me solve this problem I'm having.
This is the first and only time I've ever encountered something like this..


**Prepare for a long and detailed description**
Okay, first off, I'm an extreme classic 80's metal video collector, have been since I was very young. This one video I've spent ages looking for, to be accurate, probably about 12/13 years. Saying the video is rare is a understatement, although the video is on youtube, I personally don't mess with compressed mp4/flv junk. To me, if it isn't MPEG-2 VOB/DVDR, I can't use it.
I've been jerked around 3 times prior to finding this video. The video is called Eudoxis - Metal Fix, it's a very rare video that only aired a couple times on MuchMusic in Canada. The band is from Quebec. The first time I found someone who had it they told me 'Sure! We'll do a trade' and I sent the dude my list, he said he saw lots of stuff he wanted, now the dude ignores me, when he's on my facebook. I can clearly see he's been online, yet he ignores me every time I ask him anything. Same with the second guy who claims to have the video, he's got it listed on his site, and at one time he said 'Sure, we can trade'. He even picked out some shows/episodes of Headbangers Ball from my list he wanted. Now he ignores me as well. Finally the third guy is the guy who actually uploaded the video on youtube, 'How about I just send you the tape and you put it on DVD?' I said sure, that would be great! And I promised to send his tape back to him along with a copy of it on DVDR, and a remastered/cleaned up copy. Same B.S., another dude that ignores me. So I got really sick of getting the run around from all 3 of these dudes, I don't even know if the 2 guys who have it listed on their list even have it or not, but the guy on youtube apparently does, he just don't care to help me out for whatever reason now.
Then I got an email from a friend of mine in Canada who told me he has the video, it's on VHS and he found it! So I got VERY excited cause I know this guy, and I trust him. He's not going to pull the same B.S. on me that those 3 guys did, and I was right. He sent me the original tape, and just told me 'Keep it dude!'.
The problem is, he recorded it off an illegal cable box back in the day, so I'm having some serious problems pulling the video off the tape.
I feel that I needed to explain just how rare this 1 video is, so people can understand that I can't just go and buy it somewhere. It's so rare, the band don't even have it (Trust me, I've barked up that tree already) and it hasn't been played on TV since the mid 80's. The video is from 1984, so it's old.


Now for the technical problems:


Okay, when I watch the video on the tape straight from my VCR, it plays fine. It doesn't look perfect, there are some blue lines at the top on some scenes of the video, and I'm only assuming that is from the illegal cable box. I have 2 standalone DVD recorders, one is a Samsung and the other is a Magnavox with a built-in VCR. I have 4 VCR's including the DVD recorder with the built-in VCR. Out of all 4 VCR's, the one that plays the tape the best is my old sh***y Emerson VCR with only 1 left audio channel. I don't know why, because we've had this VCR since before I was born, so it's ancient (Well over 26 years old at least).
The other VCR's will play it, but they don't look quite as good as the old Emerson.
Ok, for some reason when I just play the video with my VCR it plays fine, like I said. For proof, here is a picture of my TV playing the video:



Here is a actual VIDEO RECORDING of my TV playing the video: https://mega.co.nz/#!9kVHwTyT!dTxFaAD4yQVIGqZnZ6foOVQyJBk20dhXF_eL4Vkxuo4


Warning, it's a large file, but you can get a general idea of what it looks like from my TV. Also, my copy is 100% complete, the copy on youtube is missing the first 5 or 6 seconds, and also the last 5 or 6 seconds as well. Another reason I'm trying to save this video.


Now, when I try to record the video to DVD with either of my DVD recorders, this is the result I get:





The video is WAY too dark. And believe it or not, but that's after I put the video through Sony Vegas and turned up the brighness to where you can barley even see it. It's TERRIBLE.


So that got me thinking this tape MUST still have some kind of copy encryption on it somehow. The thing is, it's an old tape recorded off TV, but it was recorded with an illegal cable box. The same tape also has some other MuchMusic Power Hour interviews and videos on it as well as some from Solidrok, but the other videos look fine and will record fine! The tape is in SP mode, it's just a 2-Hour tape.
All of the other videos except for the first 5 or 6 look like the Eudoxis video, cause they were all recorded with the illegal cable box. I've tried everything so far..
The back of my 61" bigscreen TV has a 'Monitor Out' RCA plugin on it, so I thought 'This is it! That would be perfect!'. Wrong. I hooked it up and played the video on my TV through my VCR, and I got really excited, cause it looked as though it was going to record fine with my DVD recorder from the Monitor Out plugin, but when I watched the DVD back, it was the same crap. Black, you can't barley even see anything.
I've tried recording the VHS to another VHS, thinking maybe if I record it to another VHS tape, the encryption might come off of it enough where I can pick the video up with my DVD recorder. Nope, the tape looks terrible. In fact half of it ends up in black & white.
I even tried hooking the Monitor Out plugin up to my VCR and watching the tape on my TV, recording it on another VHS tape from my VCR. Although it looks fine through my TV while it's recording, when I play the tape I've recorded back it looks terrible, again, black & white, jumping, it will not record without looking terrible.


Can anybody please help me? Does anyone have any ideas how I can bypass this and save the video?? Also.. What is this crap?? It's just a tape recorded from Canadian TV in the 80's, I've never in all the years of video collecting had a problem like this, and I've had thousands of tapes put on DVD with music videos from all over the world.
This is a nightmare, and I know those 3 dudes aren't going to help me out.
I've offered them all 3 $50 just for a copy. Nothing. Pretty much if I can't get this tape to transfer and look decent, it's hopeless.
If I could just somehow record the tape how it looks when I watch it back from my VCR, I really think it could work..
And please, do not post and say 'Film your TV playing the video!'. That's stupid.
I am trying to get the best transfer I can out of this cause it's as good as I'm probably ever going to get.. this video has been an absolute NIGHTMARE for me to just find, and finally after all the sleepless nights and years of searching, I can't put it on DVD.
Can anyone please help me out?
Thank you..

[DB83]

Not encryption IMHO. Over-saturated colors caused by the pirated recording.

Doubt if you could get much from that with direct vcr to dvd-recording since the recorder cannot compensate whereas the tv does a little.

A capture device. Maybe a tbc. And a whole boat-load of post-processing is your only hope.

[AnthraxFan1987]

I thought about using a capture device, I have one but it's so old it won't work anymore. I used to use it on my Windows 98, but I can't seem to install it on any of my new computers. It's a Dazzle DVC USB device, I tried everything, the computer won't detect it, and I know it's working.There's no way it's only a brightness problem though, because I can watch the video on my TV fine, for example, I can plug the VCR directly into my TV and it looks great, but at the same time I can plug the VCR into either of my DVD recorders and the picture is too dark, even without hitting record. I think I'm going to take it to my local computer store and see what a capture card will do, if it will even work at all or if it will be the same terrible outcome.
I haven't tried using one of those boxes you can get for bypassing factory tapes yet, but I'm assuming it wouldn't work either.

[jagabo]

An analog video stabilizer might work. If not, a full frame time base corrector.

Most recording equipment will look at the amplitude of the horizontal sync pulses to set the automatic gain. In your case the sync pulses have to great an amplitude so they darken the picture. TVs ignore the amplitude of the sync pulses so they display the picture normally. A stabilizer or TBC will rebuild the sync pulses.

[DB83]

I did not say brightness. I said saturation. Recording on a home vcr would not create a macrovision signal.

[AnthraxFan1987]

An analog video stabilizer might work. If not, a full frame time base corrector.

Most recording equipment will look at the amplitude of the horizontal sync pulses to set the automatic gain. In your case the sync pulses have to great an amplitude so they darken the picture. TVs ignore the amplitude of the sync pulses so they display the picture normally. A stabilizer or TBC will rebuild the sync pulses.

Okay, can you dumb that down for me? I know a little about editing videos but I didn't get all that.
Your saying a capture card might work? What kind of card exactly would I need?
Also, another thing I don't understand, why when I record the video from VHS to VHS doesn't it pick it up through the monitor of my bigscreen? I tested out several different videos before I tried to record this Eudoxis video and they all recorded fine to both my recorder and my VCR, but this video and all of the other 5/6 videos recorded with the illegal cable box all look terrible. They all flash, jump, switch to black & white. Is there a possibility there might be some kind of copyright stuff still on this tape somehow?

[DB83]

Again. A domestic vcr can not create a copyright signal. But that pirate box was trying to decrypt in real time and few can do this perfectly.

All those issues you now describe are probably 'hard' coded on the tape. That is to say there are weak signals recorded which manifest in the digital realm. I doubt if a video stabilizer will improve it but it will not make it worse which has happened in direct to dvd.

[AnthraxFan1987]

So a capture card might bypass this?What I'm asking is how can I record the video to DVD just how it looks when I play it back on my TV? I wasn't sure if I should go with a capture card or the stabilizer.

[DB83]

A capture card will not bypass this. You will probably end up with exactly the same as you have now.

However, with a losslessly captured video you can apply filters which could improve it somewhat.

Place a stabilser between the vcr and the recorder will help to steady the picture especially if you do not see the B&W flashes when playing the tape.

A stabilser AND a capture card gives you best of both. Opportunity to restore even more of the picture. You could possibly do some of that from a dvd but you will already have compressed your video.

But do go along to your friendly video store since for one tape and a few dollars you could get a better recording which you can tweak even more in your own time.

[jagabo]

There are some video capture devices that ignore Macrovision* (and maybe whatever is wrong with your tape). The old Hauppauge PVR 250 and the newer Hauppauge HD PVR, for example. Those might capture your video without making it very dark.

* One form of Macrovision is to alter the amplitude of the sync pulses. Usually alternating between making them to high, sometimes too low. VHS decks intentionally respond to that by alternately darkening and brightening the picture, making the video unwatchable.Capture cards that respond to Macrovision will distort the picture in some way.

http://cd.textfiles.com/group42/HACK/TV/MACROV.HTM

Some stabilizers reconstruct the sync pulses so they may indeed fix your problem. Full frame time base correctors always rebuild all the sync so they could fix your problem too. But most TBCs are designed to respond to Macrovision and will not pass a Macrovision protected signal through.

[AnthraxFan1987]

I know that my old Dazzle capture card could record things that both of my DVD recorder can't record now, but unfortunately it only captured in MPEG-1, so I decided to upgrade to a DVD recorder and I've used it ever since.I had nearly the same problem as I have now with a factory VHS I had, it was Ozzy Visits Hollywood or something like that, for some reason I transferred it with my Dazzle capture card and it recorded it with no problems at all, but when I tried to record it with both of my DVD recorders, the tape did nearly the same thing as this tape does, except for some reason my recorders would just tell me 'Copyright Violation' and it would stop the recording, and the 2 minutes it did record or so would be too dark to even see. I wasn't sure if this was the same case because the DVD recorder didn't stop, and you can still watch the video although it's way too dark to see. The Ozzy tape was scrambled to where you couldn't see anything at all.
If this is some kind of Macrovision, I know it's only on the first 5/6 videos because the other videos on the tape play fine and record fine. There's a U2 interview after the Eudoxis video, it records fine, and also some other interviews after the video, but they were all recorded with a regular cable box, not the pirate cable box.

[DB83]

It's not macrovision per se. But your recorder might interprete the changes as mv simply due to the weak signal coming from the tape. That's why a stabiliser could help. Big cost tho for one tape.

[AnthraxFan1987]

That's what I was worried about, I guess there isn't such a thing as a cheap stabilizer is there?Even if it is a cheap one, will it work as good as an expensive one?

[jagabo]

http://www.amazon.com/XDIMAX-GREX-7-4-Grex-Video-Stabilizer/dp/B0096I2DNE/

[DB83]

I suppose $89 is cheap. But still expensive just for one tape. And with no real guarantee of improvement since this issue is not pure mv or other recognised forms of copy protection.

[AnthraxFan1987]

Not only 1 tape, but 1 video. But I know if I don't at least try this I'm not going to find it again, because the 3 jerks who promised to help me out/sell/send me the video before are not going to help me. I've never had so much trouble with 1 video in my 13 years of collecting. But I guess I'll give this a try and see if it's effective. I'm desperate to get this video on DVD.Thanks for the help.

[DB83]

As an ex-collector I can sure respect your dedication in this respect.

Pls post back when you have the stabiliser and tried it out.

[AnthraxFan1987]

I will for sure, screenshots of *hopefully* the video directly next time I post.

[jagabo]

For a 3 minute music video I think your best bet is to send it to a professional who has the right equipment and knows how to deal with this type of problem. It will cost you less than the Grex -- which may not work.

[AnthraxFan1987]

How would I go about doing that?

[Gramps]

You might be better to just grab it off Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58grciw1-Z4

The quality definitely isn't great, but the clip you posted looks pretty rough too.

[AnthraxFan1987]

I don't mess with youtube junk. The copy I have when I watch it on the VHS looks better than the highly compressed youtube copy. Plus as I said before my copy is complete, the youtube copy is missing a lot of the ending.

[hech54]

So that got me thinking this tape MUST still have some kind of copy encryption on it somehow.

Nope. It's probably just a copy of a copy, and one of them was SLP at one time.

[Nelson37]

The problem is NOT copy-protection. Also NOT the cable box, I would suggest that you not mention that during the next step. It's just a bad recording. The TV compensates, most recording devices do not.

You could buy $75 to $200 worth of hardware that would have reasonably good odds of solving the problem, with a fairly LONG learning curve.

OR, you could take it to a VHS to DVD service in your area, who would do it for $20 or so. Tell them it is a very bad recording up front, so they don't waste time on standard methods. Do NOT tell them that the tape was illegally obtained.

Is the recording in stereo, or is the one channel your VCR outputs good enough? If you need stereo, you would need to get another VCR. Getting one that will play it decently is a total crapshoot.

[AnthraxFan1987]

So that got me thinking this tape MUST still have some kind of copy encryption on it somehow.

Nope. It's probably just a copy of a copy, and one of them was SLP at one time.

This is not a copy of a copy dude. It is the original copy, that I am 100% positive of. And this is in SP mode, not SLP, LP or EP.

[AnthraxFan1987]

The problem is NOT copy-protection. Also NOT the cable box, I would suggest that you not mention that during the next step. It's just a bad recording. The TV compensates, most recording devices do not.

You could buy $75 to $200 worth of hardware that would have reasonably good odds of solving the problem, with a fairly LONG learning curve.

OR, you could take it to a VHS to DVD service in your area, who would do it for $20 or so. Tell them it is a very bad recording up front, so they don't waste time on standard methods. Do NOT tell them that the tape was illegally obtained.

Is the recording in stereo, or is the one channel your VCR outputs good enough? If you need stereo, you would need to get another VCR. Getting one that will play it decently is a total crapshoot.

The audio is in Hi-Fi, I already recorded the audio on a separate VOB file and it came out fine but the video was black. It's a demo, that doesn't exist on tape, CD, LP or any other format so the best thing I can do is clean up this original Hi-Fi recording myself. I'm going to give my local computer store a try first and see if they can capture the video on a capture card, that way I will know if it's the copy protection or not. The thing is, if it is just a bad quality recording, I should be able to record the video from VHS to another VHS without it jumping everywhere and turning black & white. Also, anything else on the tape that wasn't recorded with the de-scrambler records fine from VHS to VHS, and also from VHS straight to DVDR.

[AnthraxFan1987]

This is what my friend who sent me the tape just wrote me, in his exact words:

"let me know if that vhs makes it to dvd ok? it was recorded through a de-scrambler for people hijacking pay cable in the 80s."


This may have something to do with why I can't record any of the videos recorded with the de-scrambler. I was saying 'Illegal cable box' when what I meant to say was de-scrambler, although I don't know the difference personally. I do know back in the day there was ways to steal cable, which was to climb up to the top of the post and do it that way. My uncle would do it for people for like $20, but this is something entirely different.

[DB83]

It was understood, well atleast by me, from the begining. I owned such a 'black-box' to get 'certain' channels from the days of analog satellite.

Now I did not download you vid of you filming the tv screen but I would like to know if you had any severe playback issues. The still just shows heavy color burst whereas your other caps show other problems. Do you see those problems on the tv. Apologies if you have already mentioned these but the topic has gone somewhat 'off'

The original service was scrambled so your black-box attempted to de-scramble. Like I previously said, few such devices could do this perfectly since it had to react quickly to the encryption keys being sent with the signal. When it played 'catch up' it produced a weak signal and you now see these signals as they were recorded on the tape.

One other issue is the tape itself. You did say that from your several vcrs only one could really play this tape and clearly even that one is struggling.

As others have said, take it to a pro. Just explain to them that you have a tape with a really weak video signal and hope they can get something out of it.

[AnthraxFan1987]

The only problem I see on the TV while watching the video is during the part where the singer is singing solo, and the top of the screen turns a bright red, you see sort of a blue thick line. Besides those scenes the tape plays fine.What I meant by out of the 4 VCR's, only one of them plays the video the best, that is my oldest Emerson VCR with only 1 left audio channel.
The 3 will play the video, but they don't look as good as the old Emerson does. I have a Sony SLV-676UC VCR, it looks bad while playing the video, rather dark but not as dark as the Magnavox DVD recorder with the built-in VCR, that looks the worst of all 4 and I'm guessing it's because it has the DVD recorder on it. I also have a Sanyo VCR that plays the video, it looks decent, close to the Emerson, but not quite as good. Still, you can see bright colors and the video is view-able, but as soon as I hook the VCR's up to either of my DVD recorders it automatically goes dark. I've tried to transfer the video with all 4 VCR's and on both of my DVD recorders, I get the same result but different sound quality. It sounds the best on my Sony SLV-676UC VCR, but it doesn't look good. I've kept the audio on a separate VOB file that I recorded with my SLV-676UC, so it does sound good, I'm just trying to record the video now.

[NJRoadfan]

You are going to need better equipment. At a minimum you need an external full frame TBC. A high end VCR with built-in TBC might help as well. Some may bash JVCs with Digipure, but it saved a tape for me big time once already (2nd generation copy of very poor quality). For color/saturation issues, a proc amp is highly recommended.