Trying to record VHS from the 80's (From TV) with encryption? Help?

[awhite2600]

I had a few friends back in the 80's that messed around with descrambling Pay TV here in Canada. Back then the scrambling / descrambling was all analog. There were no digital decryption keys. Most of the scrambling was done by using non-standard sync signals. The audio was always unscrambled.

The descramblers supplied by the cable companies understood the non-standard sync and could convert it to a standard signal for paying customers. Most of the homebrew / illegal descramblers worked by overriding the non-standard sync with a more powerful, standard signal. These signals were often outside the spec of normal NTSC video signals. The televisions at that time seemed to compensate nicely and still display a stable picture. (I know, I watched many hours of illegal pay TV at a friend's house.) I remember a friend showing my the schematics for his "video sync realignment oscillator". It was a very simple circuit that worked quite well.


I suspect that the original VCR has managed to record the out of spec sync signals. These will appear very similar to Macrovision and mess up the automatic gain controls of VCRs and DVD recorders or trigger a "copy protection" error.


You may have success with one of the "video stabilizers" that are designed to strip out Macrovision. A TBC is likely to work too. Neither are low cost options.


Sorry that I don't have a firm solution. Just contributing some knowledge from back in the day.

[AnthraxFan1987]

That does help knowing more about this, I knew there was no way this was just a bad picture problem, because it doesn't make any sense that I can't record the VHS to another VHS without it jumping from color to black & white, then the picture has tracking problems on playback.I said earlier that I played the video/VHS on my TV, and the Eudoxis video which was recorded with the de-scrambler wouldn't record without looking terrible, although the picture looked fine on my VCR while I was recording it, when I played the VHS that I recorded it on back it looked terrible, tracking problems, jumping and it would go from color to black & white.
But there is a video right after the Eudoxis video (White Lion video) and it was recorded on regular cable TV later on, it records fine from VHS to VHS, and also from VHS to DVDR.

[Brad]

it doesn't make any sense that I can't record the VHS to another VHS without it jumping from color to black & white, then the picture has tracking problems on playback

That is actually expected when copying a very weak signal to another tape. But it would probably happen regardless of the cause of the messed up signal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mES3CHEnVyI&t=1m50s

[AnthraxFan1987]

it doesn't make any sense that I can't record the VHS to another VHS without it jumping from color to black & white, then the picture has tracking problems on playback

That is actually expected when copying a very weak signal to another tape. But it would probably happen regardless of the cause of the messed up signal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mES3CHEnVyI&t=1m50s

You aren't understanding what I've said.. The tape is playing fine when I have it hooked up to my bigscreen TV, and when I record the output from my VCR onto another VHS tape, it should record it the same way it's playing on the output monitor as it's showing on my TV, but it doesn't. The playback is terrible, I wouldn't say it's as bad as when I record it directly from VHS to VHS, but it's still next to un-watchable. I can record other tapes that are next to death on SLP mode from my output on the back on my bigscreen TV and they come out fine, or at least watchable. I'll actually make a video to show what I'm talking about, and I'll record a piece of the White Lion video after the Eudoxis video so you can see exactly how stable it is, because it's recorded straight from regular cable, not with a de-scrambler.

[Brad]

You aren't understanding what I've said..

I think I am, mostly. I was just trying to clarify why the colors would be one of the first things to go.

The tape is playing fine when I have it hooked up to my bigscreen TV, and when I record the output from my VCR onto another VHS tape, it should record it the same way it's playing on the output monitor as it's showing on my TV, but it doesn't.

Well, we "should" be able to do a lot of things. I believe DB83 has explained why an imperfectly descrambled signal could trip up making copies both to another VCR and to a DVD recorder.

The playback is terrible, I wouldn't say it's as bad as when I record it directly from VHS to VHS, but it's still next to un-watchable.

I take it you mean comparing VCR->(monitor out)->VCR as opposed to VCR->VCR.

I'll record a piece of the White Lion video after the Eudoxis video so you can see exactly how stable it is, because it's recorded straight from regular cable, not with a de-scrambler.

I believe you that the parts of the tape not recorded from the descrambler can be copied fine.

[jaydear]

I have worked with video since the mid '70s and have converted a LOT of U-matic, VHS and Beta tapes over the years. The over-saturated and dark picture you are seeing is similar to the effect of copy protection and/or mistracking that is common in SLP mode. TV's and some video monitors are designed to cope with all sorts of video problems, but VCR's are not - they totally depend on stable sync and proper video levels coming in. A so-called stabilizer can reshape some distorted sync, but cannot re-time unstable sync and video caused by tape playback. The only device that can give you proper, stable, re-synchronized video is a Timebase Corrector (TBC), e.g. www.questronix.com.au/products/ctb100.htm

I have used a Cypress CTB100 for years and can recommend it. Prior to that I used an Electronic Design TBC which was also brilliant, but you can't get them new any more. You can probably get a CTB100 in your country if you google it, but if not, try the link above. Not cheap at about $350, but really the only way to go imho. You might be able to get a second-hand E-D TBC, but I'd advise against it because as they aged they had intermittent logic troubles. E-D went down many years ago so there are no spares.

Some digital video cameras allow you to input video and audio in E to E mode and will correct it just like the TBCs mentioned. This is worth a try to see if it cures the basic problem you are having and therefore prove whether a TBC is going to solve your problem, but you will not be able to adjust brightness, contrast, stauration and hue like you can with a CTB100 TBC. E to E means electronics to electronics, i.e. you put the camera into record + pause mode so you'd need a DV tape in the camera, but you won't need to record on it. The output will usually only be available on the firewire output, so you'd need a PC (I recommend Win XP Pro SP3 as the OS) with a firewire input, capture software (e.g. Windows Moviemaker) and a DV driver to suit the camera. The captured files in DV format need lots of disc space and need to be edited to trim the ugly front and end bits then converted to MPEG2 for DVD mastering.

[NJRoadfan]

The best way to show this damaged sync requires specialized equipment, mainly a waveform monitor. The CTB-100 is the same as the often recommended AV Toolbox AVT-8710. While its correction of actual time-base errors (horizontal line jitter) isn't that great (thats what the in-deck TBC of the JVCs and AG-1980 are for), one thing it excels at is taking rotten sync sources and turning them into RS-170a compliant signals that keep capture cards and DVD recorders happy.

[2Bdecided]

Your zero cost option is to record it off the TV screen when it's playing back properly. With care and a decent camcorder this can work quite well. Nothing like a direct capture, but better than you're getting at the moment.

Your best option is to get a pro to transfer it. Don't take it around every amateur in the town - the tape will get wrecked before you get a decent transfer and then what will you do?

[PuzZLeR]

I'm thinking this is a luma issue, not as much a chroma one. Yes, I too would suggest a proc amp and play with the video levels with regards to black and gain IRE levels. This should make the blacks more black and the whites more white and correct it somewhat.

In the end, it will still look bad to mediocre - too much color burst IMO. All you can do is improve it. A TBC will help clean the signal too.

Just like the guys that stiffed you (online social grace more rule than exception on passive trades) many of the transfer houses are also comedians in their own way who claim a service on equipment no better than what Joe has. Ask them what gear they have ahead of time. See if they know what they're talking about first.

As for Dazzle, stay away even if you do get it to "work". Their products pre-2005-ish, pre-Pinnacle buyout, were so bad you can blame a divorce on them.

And speaking of good times, I actually saw this band back in the day when they played with (I think) DBC? So long ago now, and back when I lived in Montreal, wouldn't remember the show even if I was sober through it.

[AnthraxFan1987]

Well I have some friends from Toronto looking for the video through their old Power Hour tapes.. I offered them $50 for a copy of it on DVDR from VHS, if they have it they'll sell it to me. I'm going to try that before I go all out on this VHS tape, because it may cost me well over $100+ to get this tape to copy correctly just for one video, and it still might not even work then knowing my luck with this 1 video.I've been jerked around 3 times prior to finding this copy, but I'm going to keep searching, if that doesn't do any good then I'll have no choice than to transfer this VHS somehow. All I can do is keep offering a reward for a copy of it. The band don't have it, odds are MuchMusic does have it, in fact I KNOW they have it... The reason I know is because I was looking for another video that is just as rare, if not even more rare and obscure as this Eudoxis video, the video was called Hanover Fist - In The Metal Of The Night, another band from Canada that I highly enjoy. The video is very hard to find, it's on youtube, but like I said, I hate compressed junk, so I was on the lookout for either an original VHS copy or a VHS to DVDR copy. The singer of the band (His name's Frank) I know him, very cool guy, he was also looking for the video. He didn't even have a copy of it for himself. So I decided to contact someone who actually works at MuchMusic, not giving out any names, but I assumed he might have access to records/archive somehow, and I was correct. I asked him if he could please look and see if they still have the Hanover Fist video, he did actually reply for me and he looked, they DO have it he told me. But of course because of copyright violations I couldn't just get a copy of the video so easily, but I mention that I know Frank the singer, and that helped me out a lot. I gave him Frank's email, and he said that MuchMusic would do it, but it would cost me (give or take) $50 for a copy of it on DVDR. After a few months of waiting for a reply from MuchMusic, which never happened, one of my friends sent me a video to clean up for him, he sent me a video for Razor (Evil Invaders), and at the end of the Evil Invaders video, there it was! Hanover Fist - In The Metal Of The Night. I totally flipped out and I had my friend call me right away and I asked him if he could please record the Hanover Fist video for me in XP mode on his standalone DVD recorder (cause originally the video he sent me, it only had about 6 seconds of the beginning of the Hanover video on it). And of course being the awesome guy he is, he said sure. But that was pure luck. I'm not so lucky with this Eudoxis video, 3 people pulling the same B.S. on me with it, then finally getting a tape in the mail that contains the video and it's very difficult to transfer over to DVD. All I can do is wait and hope, I've waited 12/13 years already to find it, so it can't hurt to wait a little longer.

[DB83]

Well a tv company, even if they have an original, could not give you a copy. A small matter of copyright.

If the band do not have it, assuming that they own the copyright (which inevitably they might not) could request same from the tv company.

Best of luck with your quest. The joys of collecting.

[AnthraxFan1987]

If the band cared about the video there would be a good chance I could get a copy of it from MuchMusic, but they want nothing to do with it anymore. The singer hates the video, if you look on the comments from the youtube copy, you can see he's posted and he said he hated the way the video turned out. I've already wrote him and asked if he would help me out, no reply, so I am totally on my own with this one.Hopefully someone recorded it on regular cable back in the day, I was told it only aired a couple times, my copy is a completely different airing than the earlier copy on youtube. If you notice the logo is completely different, the youtube copy is the old solid color MuchMusic logo and my copy is the later silver 'Metal' color logo. If I had some help from the band there's a good chance I could get a copy, just like with Frank from Hanover Fist, he was going to help me out, he still intends to get a copy directly from MuchMusic cause he wants the best possible copy of the video. I'm fine with the copy I found though, it looks really good, but with the Eudoxis video, I have no support from the band for help. The video wasn't recorded from a label. If you notice it says 'Independent' where the label should be. Not often, but sometimes MTV and MuchMusic would play videos from bands that were on Independent labels, MTV had a whole show called Basement Tapes back in the day.
It's a shame that some of these videos that were from Independent labels are next to impossible to find today. I've pretty much found everything I was looking for, but this Eudoxis video was in my top 20 hardest to find videos.

[justin81]

Sorry to hijack this...but this is a related problem/question...

I have some tapes that were recorded on a setup similar to the OP's by a friend of mine many years ago (i.e,. unauthorized descrambler on an analog CATV).

I notice that every once in awhile, during playback on the VCR, there will be a bright "bust" of light in the video on the monitor. I actually paused the tape once when this occurred, and what I saw was the scrambled image. Basically, the picture is descrambled like 99% of the time, except for these brief one second (or so) flashes where you can see the scrambled image.

I always wondered what may have caused this. Was the descrambler "bad?" Was the test chip "bad"? Poor connection to the recording VCR so some part of the scrambled signal was making it through? Was it some cable company countermeasure (the bullet?) that damaged the descrambler at some point (highly doubtful, but still)?

Just always thought it was an odd technical curiosity. Anyone else ever run across this or similar issues?

[AnthraxFan1987]

UPDATE:

I got the video recorded now, FINALLY. After so much torment and spending so much time it recorded. The solution was JUST a capture card. No Grex, no TBC, none of that stuff. As I thought before, it WAS some sort of copy protection still on the tape somehow. I don't know what it was exactly, but it recorded fine with only a capture card on a regular VCR.
Here's some screenshots of the video on an actual file for proof:














It's not perfect by any means, but at least it's 100% complete and it isn't heavily compressed to where all you can see is pixels.


I know what you mean by burst of blue color at the top, the second screenshot I posted is a good example of that. I think it was probably something to do with the specific colors, because for some reason (or on the Eudoxis video anyways) the blue burst only pops up when the screen turns a bright red. This happens in 2 spots on the music video mainly, when the singer is singing solo and when the red Eudoxis logo/intro pops up at the beginning. It probably has something to do with the signal. I noticed it on a Doro video before this video, when red pops up on the screen on the Doro video the blue burst pops up. It may only be on the scenes with bright red, but it may be different for every de-scrambler.

[DB83]

What capture card ?

[AnthraxFan1987]

I have no idea what kind of capture card it took, but the guy who recorded it for me (local computer store) said it's a $700 unit. That's all I know. It recorded fine, I asked if he had a Grex, he said 'What is a Grex?'. Didn't need any of that stuff.

[DB83]

Ok. There are $700 capture cards. The store should be able to tell you what it was. I am curious.

And what format did you get for your bucks ?

[AnthraxFan1987]

I got it on an uncompressed MPEG-2 (VOB) file. I personally don't care what kind of capture card it was, I think it was a pinnacle though, because he was trying to sell me one back in the day, and he told me their really good cards, etc.I'm not calling up there to find out, I got the video, I paid the man, I'm happy for now anyways.
I'm always going to be on the lookout for another copy of this video though cause the blue line at the top is a bit annoying, but if I do happen to find another copy and it's incomplete, I can patch it up with this copy at least. It's very often that I find incomplete videos and those are usually the best quality copies by chance.

[DB83]

Well if you are happy then who am I to argue. But....

Pinnacles do not cost $700
Mpeg-2(VOB) is not uncompressed.
If he was a pro then he would have used additional equipment to enhance the capture. Remove that issue in the 2nd cap for example.

But as I said, who am I to argue.

[AnthraxFan1987]

I'm not going to argue, I'm happy with it honestly.As for the second shot, that is on the tape itself. It's in the video in other words. That's from the de-scrambler, odds are it wouldn't be easy to get rid of. Plus, I told him that it was fine, I didn't care about the blue at the top cause I knew he would've charged me more to mess with it (editing, etc). Pro or not, who cares? The video is on a file just like I wanted. I can watch it on my TV, put it on a compilation with other obscure videos, that's what I wanted to do originally.
I don't know if it was a pinnacle, I said it might be. I didn't ask cause I don't intend to buy a capture card. This is the first time I ran into this problem and odds are it will be the last.

[2Bdecided]

If he was a pro then he would have used additional equipment to enhance the capture. Remove that issue in the 2nd cap for example.

You mean like getting the levels half way correct? At least it's easy enough to fix, and the MPEG-2 encoding isn't so bad as to make it unrecoverable. It'll be fun trying to clean up all the chroma noise though (which I guess is on the original tape, and not a result of the capture?).

Cheers,
David.

[AnthraxFan1987]

Well it really doesn't matter, this may have been a complete waste of time and money to begin with because one of the other guys who have it finally replied, levels and all that junk don't really matter now At least if the other copy I get is missing the beginning and ending I can patch it up with this, that's the most important part. I kinda thought the tape was gone anyways, I just had no way of knowing if I'd ever find another copy of it.

[sanlyn]

Those pics from post #44 are atrocious. It's not just a matter of "levels"; the problems are far more severe. You say you're intent on getting a decent image but just recording the same thing again and again with the same results is a waste of effort. A decent tbc device is an absolute requirement for work like this, even if it's a cheap Grex. But you'll find many threads in this forum about using a DVD recorder as a pass-thru unit into another recording or capture device. Many of these pass-thru's will ignore most forms of the old copy protection (mine do) and will do the same thing that the AGC circuits in many displays will do. The pass-thru unit isn't used to record: it's simply used as described, as a pass thru device that sends a corrected signal to another device. Not all DVD recorders can be used for pass-thru. I'm using these: Panasonic DMR-ES15 and DMR-ES20, and some Toshiba's circa 2004-2005 (RD-K2 and RD-SX34). Newer recorders aren't as talented as the older ones. You might try borrowing someone's old Panny or Toshiba recorder and trying it out as a pass-thru device.

[AnthraxFan1987]

Those pics from post #44 are atrocious. It's not just a matter of "levels"; the problems are far more severe. You say you're intent on getting a decent image but just recording the same thing again and again with the same results is a waste of effort. A decent tbc device is an absolute requirement for work like this, even if it's a cheap Grex. But you'll find many threads in this forum about using a DVD recorder as a pass-thru unit into another recording or capture device. Many of these pass-thru's will ignore most forms of the old copy protection (mine do) and will do the same thing that the AGC circuits in many displays will do. The pass-thru unit isn't used to record: it's simply used as described, as a pass thru device that sends a corrected signal to another device. Not all DVD recorders can be used for pass-thru. I'm using these: Panasonic DMR-ES15 and DMR-ES20, and some Toshiba's circa 2004-2005 (RD-K2 and RD-SX34). Newer recorders aren't as talented as the older ones. You might try borrowing someone's old Panny or Toshiba recorder and trying it out as a pass-thru device.

Again, I said I don't care. It looks the same as it does when it plays back on my TV on my old VCR. That's fine with me. No need of beating a dead horse. Plus if this guy comes through I may have found a way better copy. Case closed as far as I'm concerned. I'm not wasting $90 on a Grex or any other equipment when I can possibly get a better copy of this video all together for nothing but a trade (swapping DVD-R's through the mail). This VHS is not worth spending anymore cash on to me, I already got the video on a file, that's fine with me.

[PuzZLeR]

Chiming in again, in case this ends up in a search.

Now I remember. Back in the 80s, in Montreal, there were these cable de-scramblers sold to capture the Videotron signal (local cable company there). Lots of people had these boxes. The Black Market was raking it in ($$$).


But they were bad, bad boxes. I also remember when people said that their recorders had problems, especially when they'd dub. It was kind of like MacroVision - the signal was corrupted. Lots of darkness, red lines, wavy background patterns, etc, from what I recall.


I'm assuming this is what it was on this tape.

I kind of wish I had such a tape to play around with it using my TBC, proc amp, etc.

[oldfart13]

Yeah, I remember something similar from the early cable scrambling days. The stations would put a sine wave over the signal which would confuse the TV and mess up the picture. The pirates produced cheap notch filters that removed the signal. Lots of money made from a cheap device. I think Radio Electronics among other mags had articles and plans for making stuff like the filters, stabilizers, etc. Really takes me back...