HD to DVD with AVStoDVD HCEnc Color Matrix

[erek]

I have been using Kdenlive (H.264 .mp4) -> Windows Live Movie Maker (.wmv because Windows DVD Maker doesn't play well with anything else in my expiernce) -> Windows DVD Maker, but am now using Kdenlive -> AVStoDVD because I am now able to encode at much higher bitrates (~8.6 Mbps instead of 3.7 Mbps maximum with my previous workflow) and also able to retain 6-channel audio if I so desire. My question is now in regard to ColorMatrix conversion from HD Rec. 709 to SD Rec. 601. I now actively use the conversion in my AVISynth script in AVStoDVD, but I was wondering if Microsoft's Windows DVD Maker's proprietary setup also accounted for such a conversion? I noticed on my non-calibrated monitor that with my AVStoDVD transfers that there is noticable red tint compared to the converted transfers.

[img]http://grovermind.com/erek/testcomp/colorspace/DVDtransfer2.png[/img]

[manono]

I'd say that whether or not the Windows program takes into account the colorimetry change when going from HD to SD is the least of your worries. I think you can safely conclude all of your earlier encodes are garbage as compared to the way you've begun doing it recently.

MP4 to WMV to DVD?
3.7Mbps max bitrates?
No original audio?

Running a VOB through DGIndex might tell you the colorimetry used, but if the colors are slightly different now as compared to before I think your previous way didn't take it into account.

[erek]

in my original transfers I don't think either Movie Maker nor DVD Maker was able to handle exporting 5.1 audio at all so they downmix it to stereio. Basically I construct my 6-channel audio from two separate stereo audio devices. One is my secondary camera a Canon VIXIA HF100 16GB that has stereo mics and i usually point that toward the event directly in front. The other audio device is my Tascam DR-07mkII that has stereo mics and also the ability to change their pattern from A/B to X/Y and vice versa and I usually have this set offset and to the side a good ways spatially from my camcorder. In post I sync those two separate stereo tracks in Audacity and then I export to 4 channel WAV and then go to foobar2000 that has been set up with a VST Channel Mixer and also V.I. Stereo to 5.1 converter. The resulting file is an AC3 448kb 5.1 channel audio file that sounds properly mixed. Here is a link to the VST plugin @ http://www.stevethomson.ca/vi/

and also the tutorial on how i connect it all together through foobar2000 @ http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1011274#post1011274

the 5.1 conversion from 4 channels sounds significantly better to me than just listening to the synced up and exported 4 channel WAV file.

In regard to the 3.7Mbps max bitrates this was observed when saving my H.264 .mp4 with stereo audio loaded into Microsoft Windows Live Movie Maker and exported to "Burn to DVD" . I made my own custom preset based off of 'Burn to DVD" in order to attempt getting a higher bitrate. The resolution was set to 720x480 and a reasonably high bitrate that I thought would translate into an actual higher bitrate. I set it to like 24.3Mbps the same as my 1080p HD exports are supposed to be. This was all because I knew that the DVD specification allowed for 9.8Mbps maximum bitrate. Well even with my preset at 24.3Mbps the maximum output was actually only 3.7Mbps.

The final output from Windows DVD Maker resulted with VOBs near 9 Mbps but we know that you can't get something from nothing starting with 3.7Mbps. I am now trying exporting my H.264 .mp4 to .WMV 1080p HD 24.3Mbps and then exporting with Windows DVD Maker to see if that results in higher quality.

[manono]

Why use anything Windows? Just open your MP4s in AvsToDVD if you need a program to do the 'heavy lifting' for you.

[erek]

I was using Windows software because I had no idea about anything else before

[erek]

Here is the results of my H.264/6-channel AAC to WMV9/stereo WMA2: (i am only doing this to see how it will differ from using AVStoDVD)

Format : Windows Media
File size : 7.91 GiB
Duration : 59mn 29s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 19.0 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 24.2 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2013-10-05 00:22:44.818
MediaFoundationVersion : 2.112


Video
ID : 1
Format : VC-1
Format profile : Main
Codec ID : WMV3
Codec ID/Info : Windows Media Video 9
Codec ID/Hint : WMV3
Duration : 59mn 29s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 24.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.386
Stream size : 9.97 GiB
Language : English (US)


Audio
ID : 2
Format : WMA
Format version : Version 2
Codec ID : 161
Codec ID/Info : Windows Media Audio
Duration : 59mn 29s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 81.7 MiB (1%)
Language : English (US)

[usually_quiet]

At one point I tried Microsoft's Windows DVD Maker for converting from HDTV MPEG-2 to DVD because it can make some interesting animated menus. Your suspicion that Windows DVD Maker doesn't automatically convert from HD Rec. 709 to SD Rec. 601 is correct, and there is no simple way to make it do the conversion. After discovering this, I switched to AVStoDVD for doing HDTV to DVD conversions. It provides no cool menu effects but its far better video conversion features more than make up for that.

[erek]

Yeah, I love the animated menus and find them in themselves to be very professional. Is there anyway I could take the VOB/menu file or whatever comprises the menus and make AVStoDVD use them or somehow put them into the DVD folder structure that AVStoDVD can produce?

[usually_quiet]

Yeah, I love the animated menus and find them in themselves to be very professional. Is there anyway I could take the VOB/menu file or whatever comprises the menus and make AVStoDVD use them or somehow put them into the DVD folder structure that AVStoDVD can produce?

You can't transfer Windows DVD Maker's menu templates to AVStoDVD. With a fair amount of work it is possible to combine the main menu from one DVD with the VOBs from another DVD (using something other than AVStoDVD), but once you do it a few times, you are likely to decide it is not worth the effort. I know you like how they look, and the menus from Windows DVD Maker are fun, but I think you will eventually grow tired of them if you use them frequently.

[erek]

thank you, usually_quiet

[erek]

Here is the results,

Windows DVD Maker


Video: MPEG2 Video 720x480 (4:3) 29.97fps 8000kbps [Video]
Audio: Dolby AC3 48000Hz stereo 256kbps [AC-3]


Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 1 024 MiB
Duration : 17mn 2s
Overall bit rate : 8 397 Kbps


Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=16
Duration : 17mn 2s
Bit rate : 8 000 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.772
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
Stream size : 972 MiB (95%)


Audio
ID : 189 (0xBD)-128 (0x80)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Muxing mode : DVD-Video
Duration : 17mn 2s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 31.2 MiB (3%)


AVStoDVD


Video: MPEG2 Video 720x480 (16:9) 29.97fps 9000kbps [Video]
Audio: Dolby AC3 48000Hz 6ch 448kbps [AC-3]


Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 1 024 MiB
Duration : 17mn 7s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 8 363 Kbps


Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : Variable
Duration : 17mn 7s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 7 748 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 9 000 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.748
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
Stream size : 949 MiB (93%)


Audio
ID : 189 (0xBD)-128 (0x80)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Muxing mode : DVD-Video
Duration : 17mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel count : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 54.8 MiB (5%)





.....


Left = Kdenlive -> Microsoft Windows Live Movie Maker -> Microsoft Windows DVD MAker


Right = Kdenlive -> AVStoDVD

[manono]

Why'd you let the Windows program convert it to 4:3, thus losing even more resolution? You sure you didn't reverse the pictures (or the labels for the pictures)?

[erek]

the previous comparison was not fair since the aspect ratios were different and because even with Windows Live Movie Maker and Windows DVD Maker set to 16:9 output was 4:3 VOBs,

here is my AVStoDVD now,


Video: MPEG2 Video 720x480 (4:3) 29.97fps 9000kbps [Video]
Audio: Dolby AC3 48000Hz 6ch 448kbps [AC-3]

Left and Right remain the same respectively as in my post above.

[erek]

Left = Windows DVD Maker
Right = AVStoDVD


i have set in the preferences for both Windows Live Movie Maker and Windows DVD Maker to be 16:9, and my source file is 16:9, so i am not sure why it's getting switched to 4:3

[manono]

Something's not right. The picture on the left is from a 16:9 DVD, you say it's out of the Windows program, yet in your post 11 it says it's a 4:3 DVD.

The picture on the right is from a 4:3 DVD, you say it's out of AVSToDVD, yet in your post 11 it says it's 16:9.

OK, now I see you've changed what the AVSToDVD program put out. Again, though, why do anything for 4:3?

...so i am not sure why it's getting switched to 4:3

Obviously you did something wrong. The log would tell the tale.

[erek]

I haven't seen any logs coming from Windows DVD Maker, and also my aspect ratio for the AVStoDVD still seems to be 16:9 even though mediainfo says 4:3... or something is screwed up somewhere

[manono]

I haven't seen any logs coming from Windows DVD Maker...

My fault, that one. I was referring to the log from AvsToDVD while I was quoting something you said about Windows DVD Maker. My apologies.

...also my aspect ratio for the AVStoDVD still seems to be 16:9...

If the picture on the right is from the AVSToDVD output, it's obviously a 4:3 DVD.

[erek]

I haven't seen any logs coming from Windows DVD Maker...

My fault, that one. I was referring to the log from AvsToDVD while I was quoting something you said about Windows DVD Maker. My apologies.

...also my aspect ratio for the AVStoDVD still seems to be 16:9...

If the picture on the right is from the AVSToDVD output, it's obviously a 4:3 DVD.

both should should be 4:3 then, or something else is getting screwed up and the culprit is Windows DVD Maker... the settings for it are 16:9, but mediainfo says the VOB is 4:3. but it looks to you to be 16:9?




the last comparison the info on both says 4:3, so i can't account for why they look different in anyway in terms of size and shape other than a crappy encoder in Windows DVD Maker

[manono]

the settings for it are 16:9, but mediainfo says the VOB is 4:3. but it looks to you to be 16:9?

The picture on the left is from a 16:9 VOB and the one on the right is from a 4:3 VOB.

To confirm (or disprove) open the VOBs in DGIndex and run the Preview. In the Information Panel that opens up it'll tell you. DGIndex is probably included in AVSToDVD.

[erek]

Here, I got it with DGIndex. Both should be 16:9

Left = Windows DVD Maker


Right = AVStoDVD



When I zoom in for closer inspection I immediately notice that the AVStoDVD side has a lot more detail

[manono]

Now you've gone and switched pictures. This time they're both 16:9.

[erek]

no,

Left = Windows DVD Maker


Right = AVStoDVD

[manono]

Sorry, I didn't mean reversed the pictures, but that you're now using a different picture for the right side one. Now it's 16:9 where before it was 4:3 in your posts 11 and 13.

I'll retire from this one. Good luck.

[erek]

Sorry, I didn't mean reversed the pictures, but that you're now using a different picture for the right side one. Now it's 16:9 where before it was 4:3 in your posts 11 and 13.

I'll retire from this one. Good luck.

does the slightly different frames change the comparison a good deal?