What is the best overall Blu-Ray encoder?

[erek]

wait, i have done much research on this and have determined that my Canon VIXIA HF100 does indeed record 30p but stores it in a 60i wrapper for some strange reason. It is true 30 progressive, but the PF24 mode can't be said to be like. I have to somehow make sure my video editor doesn't attempt to deinterlace the footage.

[erek]

"Now your question was, how do i go about converting the 60i footage (recorded in 30p mode) into real 30 pictures per second, ie progressive. The answer is simple, in your editor just export it as 30p without deinterlacing, "

[_Al_]

I edit 29.97 in 60i wrapper all the time. I use Sony Vegas but that one is not working under Linux (I presume you are using Linux with Kdenlive. Is that right?). I do not know Kdenlive.
I load clips into ReStream and make changes to make those clip through progressive and then load it into Vegas. Otherwise editing software- any NLE would think clips are interlaced. Anothe NLE Adobe Premiere calls it "interpret footage", I think, where you change interlace to progressive within Adobe Premiere and it is ok. In Vegas you can change it in properties for each clip from interlace to progressive also. Or there are scripts for that. Do not know how it works in Kdenlive. I just correct it (interlace flags to progressive) outside of NLE, before loading, so NLE exports it without re-encoding, that's the only reason.

If you just leave it in NLE marked as interlace it starts to matter during export or if you apply effects because it is treated as interlace and programs will deinterlace your clips even if clips are progressive basically. In this case In Vegas you'd have to set in project properties Deinterlace method to "none" and while exporting to set "Field order" to none (for Main and High profile, not baseline). At the same time there should not be another true interlace footage from true interlace camcorder on the timeline because you'd export those parts, clips with those interlace strips out of vegas.

So you see it depends on editing software , you must experiment with your Kdenlive.

[erek]

I edit 29.97 in 60i wrapper all the time. I use Sony Vegas but that one is not working under Linux (I presume you are using Linux with Kdenlive. Is that right?). I do not know Kdenlive.
I load clips into ReStream and make changes to make those clip through progressive and then load it into Vegas. Otherwise editing software- any NLE would think clips are interlaced. Anothe NLE Adobe Premiere calls it "interpret footage", I think, where you change interlace to progressive within Adobe Premiere and it is ok. In Vegas you can change it in properties for each clip from interlace to progressive also. Or there are scripts for that. Do not know how it works in Kdenlive. I just correct it (interlace flags to progressive) outside of NLE, before loading, so NLE exports it without re-encoding, that's the only reason.

If you just leave it in NLE marked as interlace it starts to matter during export or if you apply effects because it is treated as interlace and programs will deinterlace your clips even if clips are progressive basically. In this case In Vegas you'd have to set in project properties Deinterlace method to "none" and while exporting to set "Field order" to none (for Main and High profile, not baseline). At the same time there should not be another true interlace on the timeline because you'd export it with those interlace strips out of vegas.

So you see it depends on editing software , you must experiment with your Kdenlive.

I am hearing that 60i on these Canon HD camcorders is better overall then PF30 and PF24... Would i still have the benefit of the 60i if i didn't deinterlace it and exported it with other footage from a different camera as 23.97p? would the down-conversion of the frame rate go over well?

[Brad]

No.

[erek]

No.

so use PF24 and don't deinterlace and i will be fine for 24p export?

[_Al_]

no, then you'd need to fix that EOS footage during export, 30p from that EOS into 24p would not look ideal, besides, to shoot 24p is not ideal in first place, not enough frames ... you could export 60i then, am I right? that pf24 is in 60i wrapper also? But it sound crazy, one footage 30p, other pf24 and export 60i.

[erek]

no, then you'd need to fix that EOS footage during export, 30p from that EOS into 24p would not look ideal, besides, to shoot 24p is not ideal in first place, not enough frames ... you could export 60i then, am I right? that pf24 is in 60i wrapper also? But it sound crazy, one footage 30p, other pf24 and export 60i.

i meant setting my EOS to 24p and setting my VIXIA to PF24 and exporting to 24p

[_Al_]

you'd need fix those pf24 to true 24p outside of your NLE and as I said 24 frames per second is kind of too low ...

yes that would be by BD specs, I forgot about title of this thread, export to BD, that 30p export theory above, coming from me was kind of misleading but good for no BD export,

so to shoot 30p with EOS and 60i with Vixia, to mix it and export 60i is not good for you?

For example Vegas handle this export all right, those 30p clips just flags as interlace without reshaping fields, but of course you would need to experiment with your NLE. At the same time downsize of interlace if you needed a to do that later, gives bad results in NLE.

[erek]

"shooting at an even higher frame rate would allow for proper extraction of backwards-compatible frame rates."

so shoot at 30p on the EOS and PF30 on the VIXIA and export 24p would be ideal?

[erek]

you'd need fix those pf24 to true 24p out of your NLE and as I said 24 frames per second is kind of too low ...

yes that would be by BD specs, I forgot about title of this thread, export to BD, that 30p export theory above, coming from me was kind of misleading from me but good for no BD export,

so to shoot 30p with EOS and 60i with Vixia, to mix it and export 60i is not good for you?

For example Vegas handle this export all right, those 30p clips just flags as interlace without reshaping fields, but of course you would need to experiment with your NLE

wait so shoot at 30p on the EOS and 60i on the VIXIA and export to 60i ? why 60i instead of 24p?


i thought you were saying shoot with 30p on the EOS and 60i on the VIXIA and export to 24p...

[_Al_]

no,
if I shoot 30p with EOS (and that I would because 24p would not be enough for me, those 6 frames per second is heck of a difference in overall result) then for BD export I'd shoot 60i with Vixia, ..., 30p and 60i goes together alright while exporting to 60i, this is best shot for you I'd say

you still have a chance to export 30p in case you dislike interlace (EOS shoots 30p and Vixia PF30) and using fake interlace to get 30p on export but flagged as 60i, but you need encoder that allows you to do that, like x264 encoder which is not straight forward and difficult to author that BD, and very difficult to author this with menu, you'd need like DVD Encore for example and that video would have to encoded with some strict rules before loading it into Encore

[erek]

no,
if I shoot 30p with EOS (and that I would because 24p would not be enough for me, those 6 frames per second is heck of a difference in overall result) then for BD export I'd shoot 60i with Vixia, ..., 30p and 60i goes together alright while exporting to 60i, this is best shot for you I'd say

you still have a chance to export 30p in case you dislike interlace (EOS shoots 30p and Vixia PF30) and using fake interlace to get 30p on export but flagged as 60i, but you need encoder that allows you to do that, like x264 encoder which is not straight forward and difficult to author that BD, and very difficult to author this with menu, you'd need like DVD Encore for example and that video would have to encoded with some strict rules before loading it into Encore

i don't understand why i should export to 60i instead of 24p? the Blu-Ray Disc spec only support 29.97i, 25i or 23.97p, 24p

[_Al_]

60i (59.94i to be exact) is 29.970i . It is the same. Sorry, both terms are being used, but I understand 60i term could be misleading, like in this case.

[erek]

60i (59.94i to be exact) is 29.970i . It is the same. Sorry, both terms are being used, but I understand 60i term could be misleading, like in this case.

can you help me understand why 60i is 29.970i?

[erek]

60i (59.94i to be exact) is 29.970i . It is the same. Sorry, both terms are being used, but I understand 60i term could be misleading, like in this case.

can you help me understand why 60i is 29.970i?

alright, i understand the 29.97i is 60i and that 29.97i is just confusing, but why should i export to 60i as opposed 24p is there and advantage i don't understand?

i have a strong desire to lean toward exporting to either 24p or 23.97p

[_Al_]

For some reason while ago they called 30p as 30p progressive and interlace of the same 30 frame per second they called 60i, not 30i. Some say marketers as usually caused that, they are causing such a deceitful terms. There was no 60p around so no confusion then and 60 sounds better than 30. But, to be honest, temporal resolution is better with 30i as oppose 30p, fluidity of video is natural for our eyes, with 30p, there is something missing while watching movement in the frame, so it had some sense to call it 60i. But then 60p came and all hell broke ....

if you shoot 24 frames per second you export 24 frames per second
if you capture 30 frame per second you export the same frame rate

so you shoot 24p with EOS and PF24 with Vixia, export 24p, if this is what you want then go with it,

and again terminology, I say 24p, but, that Canon shoots 23.976 or 24p? I think 23.976p, Vixia the same, 23.976, so you export 23.976 also ...

[jman98]

60i is 29.97i because various software programs and manufacturers have decided to count fields not frames. Hence 60 interlaced fields = 29.97 frames per second (NTSC/ATSC uses 29.97 frames per second, but some round 29.97 to 30, so 30 frames x 2 fields = 60 fields per second). It's a deliberate attempt to mislead consumers, but as to WHY they have chosen to do this and what it is supposed to accomplish, I have no idea. Even VLC gets fooled by this and incorrectly reports fields for frames on some videos. Maybe there is a messed up header in the video that is responsible for this bad reporting. I don't know.

I think 23.97 is the actual frame rate that BluRay uses and not 24 so export to that.

[erek]

so in the end... record with my Canon EOS at 29.97p and my Canon VIXIA at 60i and then export to 60i? that is the ideal solution for Blu-Ray Disc with my setup?

[_Al_]

yes, providing your NLE will not butcher those 30p clips exporting to 30i in some sort, test it first ...

[erek]

yes, providing your NLE will not butcher those 30p clips exporting to 30i in some sort, test it first ...

how can i tell if it's butched?

[_Al_]

your eyes will tell you, it should look like the original in parts where something is moving, no resampling, no new filed making should be involved, no shadows created, obvious artifacts etc.,..

[erek]

your eyes will tell you, it should look like the original in parts where something is moving, no resampling, no new filed making should be involved, no shadows created, obvious artifacts etc.,..

Thanks for your help




my second camera complicated things so much, but i am glad that i learned about how to properly deal with it now.

[_Al_]

sure,
but remember you decide to change your resolution of your interlace HD footage and you will not be happy with result, NLE do not resize interlace well, Youtube , the same, to resize interlace is not optimal, just giving heads up.

I need that in my workflow, to resize, for web for example and having 30p at the same time, so I decided long time ago to shoot 30p only. Downside of 30p is less fluidity in movements or you decide to shoot with longer shutter speeds and ND filter and having problems with blur. With 30p it is much more difficult to shoot. 24p even worse a bit. So you see no clear winner here

[erek]

sure,
but remember you decide to change your resolution of your interlace HD footage and you will not be happy with result, NLE do not resize interlace well, Youtube , the same, to resize interlace is not optimal, just giving heads up.

I need that in my workflow, to resize, for web for example and having 30p at the same time, so I decided long time ago to shoot 30p only. Downside of 30p is less fluidity in movements or you decide to shoot with longer shutter speeds and ND filter and having problems with blur. With 30p it is much more difficult to shoot. 24p even worse a bit. So you see no clear winner here

what if i export to 23.97p instead of 60i for the ability to adjust the resolution of my video?

this video seems to show that 60i on youtube works fine? not sure


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WRC85T5k2g

[_Al_]

to resize progressive gives you less artifacts, just simple bilinear method that NLE's probably use is ok,

well, for Youtube it is perhaps all the same,..., not good,
but nevertheless, to comment it, about that YouTube clip, pf30 had short shutter speed perhaps, that grass would be really blurry with longer shutter speed so in the end it would give more bitrate to that dog, that dog is a thing to look at in that footage in the first place..., imagine what you'd see in the movie theater, that grass would be blurry mash, looking at 24p, properly shot

[erek]

i am now attempting to get kdenlive to not deinterlace. it took me a while to actually even get my media player to not deinterlace the footage. i uninstalled k-lite codec mega pack, installed just mpc-hc, and that didn't work, and then i realized i still had divx installed, so i removed both mpc-hc and divx. i then proceeded to install CCCP due to recommendation from a friend. guess what!! i was able to sucessfully stop the deinterlacing.



now on to my NLE.


" f=mp4 hq=1 acodec=aac ab=%audiobitrate+'k' ar=48000 pix_fmt=yuv420p vcodec=libx264 minrate=0 vb=%bitrate+'k' g=250 bf=3 b_strategy=1 subcmp=2 cmp=2 coder=1 flags=+loop flags2=dct8x8 qmax=51 subq=7 qmin=10 qcomp=0.6 qdiff=4 trellis=1 deinterlace=0 aspect=%dar pass=%passes"


note the deinterlace=0


i am hoping that argument set to 0 works.


http://www.mltframework.org/bin/view/MLT/ConsumerAvformat#deinterlace

[lordsmurf]

People always make this harder than it needs to be.
- MainConcept for professionals and serious hobbyists
- Avidemux for weekend warrior hobbyists

Those encode fine. Follow the BD-R specs. It really is that easy. Quit making $hit hard for no reason.

60i is 29.97i because various software programs and manufacturers have decided to count fields not frames.

I hate this. There is NO REASON to do this.
It confuses everybody. The first time I saw it a couple of years ago, even I was confused.

[deadrats]

60i is not the same as 29.97i, 60i means that there are 60 fields displayed every second but since each frame has been cut up into 2 fields (top and bottom), you are only seeing 30 complete frames per second, so if you wanted to get technical 60i could be consider roughly equivalent to 30p, though there may be advantages to one over the other depending on how a scene is being shot:

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech/video2.htm

http://www.axis.com/products/video/camera/progressive_scan.htm

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/interlaced-vs-progressive-scanning-methods.html

http://www.videomaker.com/article/13755-choosing-your-direction-progressive-or-interlaced

http://www.serif.com/blog/video-editing-terms-explained-part-2-progressive-p-vs-interl...-i-recordings/

[erek]

60i is not the same as 29.97i, 60i means that there are 60 fields displayed every second but since each frame has been cut up into 2 fields (top and bottom), you are only seeing 30 complete frames per second, so if you wanted to get technical 60i could be consider roughly equivalent to 30p, though there may be advantages to one over the other depending on how a scene is being shot:

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech/video2.htm

http://www.axis.com/products/video/camera/progressive_scan.htm

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/interlaced-vs-progressive-scanning-methods.html

http://www.videomaker.com/article/13755-choosing-your-direction-progressive-or-interlaced

http://www.serif.com/blog/video-editing-terms-explained-part-2-progressive-p-vs-interl...-i-recordings/

thanks, so 60i can compete with 30p it seems