What is the best overall Blu-Ray encoder?

[erek]

Preferably freeware. What is the best Blu-Ray encoder and also what is the best format to encode to Blu-Ray? I am hoping that MultiAVCHD would be one of the best solutions for authoring to Blu-Rays or is something better out there with higher quality encoding? MultiAVCHD uses x264 as far as i know.

Thanks in advance

[sanlyn]

Are you asking about authoring or encoding?

How would you define "best"? IMHO I would not class MultiAVCHD as "the best", since AVCHD and BluRay for disk are not the same thing, most freebies have a serious lack of features, and implementations of h264 encoders differ. There are a bunch of encoder apps that use the x264 encoder, a bunch of all-in-one-magic-button cheap (and expensive) NLE's that use MainConcept's encoders, and there is the stand-alone command line encoder called "x264". There are BluRay authoring programs that don't encode. There are encoding programs that don't author. There are also encoders for standard BluRay that cost $2,000 and up, or is Walmart your upper limit? Adobe Premiere Pro and Vegas Pro are not cheapskate apps, but many say that their MC encoders aren't worth the bucks. You might want to qualify your question somewhat.

[erek]

i am referring to image quality overall

[sanlyn]

For something that we mere mortals could afford, that would be the command-line x264 encoder (dependant, of course, on whether or not you know what you're doing or you just take the defaults). There are several good free and paid apps with GUI's for x264 specifically and seem to implement it well -- that would be everything from the free TX264 which accepts custom profiles or coded params that you create yourself, to a somewhat profile-limited but still popular TMPGenc Mastering Works v5. As a rule, more automation means less flexibility. Note that I'm considering encoders, not all-in-one's.

[erek]

is there a massive difference in image quality on Blu-Ray encoders. say from free to paid such as x264 compared to a Hollywood encoder? I heard there can be negligible difference between HCenc (Hank's MPGE-2 Encoder) free and CCE (CinemaCraft MPEG-2 Encoder) expensive for DVD authoring. Is this a lot different with Blu-Ray is there a large difference in image quality between the best free and paid encoders?

[Steve(MS)]

What is your source files? In other words, are they already blu-ray or something else?
What you do AFA an encoder may depend on where your files are coming from.
My rule is to leave the files as they are and only do re-encodes for a special project.

[erek]

they are 45.5Mbps .MOV files, (Canon EOS Rebel T3i <600D>)

Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 1.26 GiB
Duration : 3mn 51s
Overall bit rate : 46.8 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2013-09-28 21:41:51
Tagged date : UTC 2013-09-28 21:41:51


Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Baseline@L5.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=15
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 3mn 51s
Bit rate : 45.3 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Original height : 1 088 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Original display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.729
Stream size : 1.22 GiB (97%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2013-09-28 21:41:51
Tagged date : UTC 2013-09-28 21:41:51
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.601


Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : sowt
Duration : 3mn 51s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 42.4 MiB (3%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2013-09-28 21:41:51
Tagged date : UTC 2013-09-28 21:41:51




...my other camera is Blu-Ray Video, (Canon VIXIA HF100)

Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 1.90 GiB
Duration : 16mn 19s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 16.7 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps


Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 16mn 19s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 15.8 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.254
Stream size : 1.80 GiB (94%)


Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 16mn 19s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : 18ms
Stream size : 29.9 MiB (2%)






...I usually have them together in the same timeline and export them to H.264 Level 4.1 .MP4 file through my NLE (kdenlive)

[sanlyn]

Then you are cutting, joining, transcoding and entirely re-encoding interlaced video. That's a different story entirely. I think you're confusing NLE's with encoders.

[jman98]

is there a massive difference in image quality on Blu-Ray encoders. say from free to paid such as x264 compared to a Hollywood encoder? I heard there can be negligible difference between HCenc (Hank's MPGE-2 Encoder) free and CCE (CinemaCraft MPEG-2 Encoder) expensive for DVD authoring. Is this a lot different with Blu-Ray is there a large difference in image quality between the best free and paid encoders?

If our member deadrats joins this thread, you can expect a rant about how x264 is a POS and in fact is the biggest POS encoder ever made. For normal human beings it's fine. Try it yourself and see what you think rather than relying on the word of potentially biased strangers to tell you what to think.

[sanlyn]

Seems it would depend on how x264 is implemented and incorporated into the software "product", or used alone, or configured by the user. But you're correct, someone can show up in this thread at any time and claim that BlahBlahCoder is the best thing since sex.

[Hoser Rob]

"Hollywood encoders"? Low budget indie movies may often shoot to 1080p HD video but "real" Hollywood movies are shot to h.265 at 2160p if not higher. So you're not likely to get the same quality compressing a 1080p source.

Noobs are always wanting a magic encoder. Which doesn't exist. Those freeware encoders just implement a GUI for common open source encoders like x264. In fact many, many paid programs are just front ends for free command line encoders too.

As mentioned, it depends upon how many features of x264 are implemented in the GUI. Quick/easy/noob friendly generally equals limited options/lack of parameters/poor quality.

There are several very good encoders recommended here by serious video types, but they are not noob suitable. Encoding is complex, and the settings you want to use depend on the video you're encoding, though you can use film and animation tunes.

The only h.264 encoders I'm familiar with that have good power and ease of use are handbrake and vidcoder, which ire very similar programs with different GUIs.

[Cornucopia]

Hold on there.
NO, I repeat NO Hollywood movies are shot to h.265. There is not a single camera on the market that SHOOTS h.265, and that encoder suite is still too new for any professional to stake their business on. Period. They/we shoot uncompressed, or losslessly, or (very slightly) lossy compressed using codecs that are as transparent as possible & have more options WRT dynamic range, colorspace, etc (I'm talking XAVC, CinemaDNG RAW, Redcode RAW, ArriRaw, Cineform, possibly DNxHD, ProRes).

The bottom line is still "you get what you pay for". You pay either in $$$ or in time/talent/expertise in choosing correct FOSS software and appropriate input (or both).

Scott

[deadrats]

If our member deadrats joins this thread, you can expect a rant about how x264 is a POS and in fact is the biggest POS encoder ever made. For normal human beings it's fine. Try it yourself and see what you think rather than relying on the word of potentially biased strangers to tell you what to think.

BZZT, wrong answer. go back and reread my "rants", what i have always said is that x264 is the most over-rated encoder ever created, that it's main developer mouth piece has spent extensive amount of time and energy spreading FUD about any other competitor in order to ensure x264's continued wide spread use and that if it wasn't legally free it wouldn't enjoy anywhere near the popularity it does. i have also said that its psychovisual enhancement algorithms are detrimental to maintaining maximum quality and that 10bit x264 offers substantially better image quality than 8bit x264.

having said all this, the biggest factor in image quality is the clarity of the source, there's an old saying in computer science GIGO, garbage in garbage out.

for all practical purposes, the best encoder that most average consumers have access to is x264, only because it's legally free. ateme, panasonic, sony and cce all have ultra high end encoders but those cost big bucks, iirc panasonic's cost 40grand per license and cce's costs 70grand and there is also elementals extremely high quality gpu powered encoders that are smoking fast, costs tons of money and produce exceptional quality, easily surpassing x264, at least according to one of the pros over at the doom9 forums who has had a chance to test it out.

the reality is none of this really matters to the OP, it's not like he can afford those solutions, it's a shame but i can't remember if it was roxio or magix that used to make an excellent NLE that used main concept's sdk and evidently they had licensed all the sdk features because when you went into the advanced configuration tab they had hundreds of options and they encode quality was the best i have ever seen, crisp, clear, vibrant, just an outstanding quality encode.

i don't believe that this holds true anymore, as i downloaded the demo of magix's editor and it was nothing like i remembered it and offered little to no configuration options for the encoder.

too bad.

[erek]

I take my RAW files from two cameras

1) Canon EOS Rebel T3i / 600D


46 Mbps .MOV PROGRESSIVE




2) Canon VIXIA HF100


18Mbps .MTS PROGRESSIVE


i then switch between the camera views synced to audio in my video editor called Kdenlive, and export to H.264 Level 4.1 PROGRESSIVE at 18 Mbps. The output is DEFINITELY NOT INTERLACED.






Here is what my outputs are generally,


Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 7.68 GiB
Duration : 59mn 29s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 18.5 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:26:32
Tagged date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:26:32


Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 58mn 28s
Bit rate : 18.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 28.4 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 30.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.289
Stream size : 7.35 GiB (96%)
Title : DirtyDogz2013-1_track1.h264:fps=30 - Imported with GPAC 0.5.0-rev4065
Writing library : x264 core 123 r2189 35cf912
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=0 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=0 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=0 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=4 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=0 / open_gop=1 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc=2pass / mbtree=0 / bitrate=18000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.25 / pb_ratio=1.25 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:26:32
Tagged date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:33:32


Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 59mn 29s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 787 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 1 134 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Original Channel count : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 335 MiB (4%)
Title : DirtyDogz2013-1-5-1-3-MovieMode_track1.aac - Imported with GPAC 0.5.0-rev4065
Encoded date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:33:10
Tagged date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:33:32





THEN I use MultiAVCHD to transcode for Blu-Ray (AVCHD strict) ~15Mbps.

[sanlyn]

AVCHD and BluRay disc are not the same standard.
https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech

[erek]

AVCHD and BluRay disc are not the same standard.
https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech

Out of the gate before I use multiavchd my file is


AVC/H.264 - MPEG-4 AVC: HP@4.1/4.0 and MP@4.1/4.0/3.2/3.1/3.0




...AVC/H.264 Level 4.1 Video. and AAC Audio (.MP4)


how do I author without re-encoding to Blu-Ray Disc?

[sanlyn]

Authoring programs don't re-encode. They just author.

[erek]

Authoring programs don't re-encode. They just author.

Would this be an acceptable source file then for authoring? (.mp4)


Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 7.68 GiB
Duration : 59mn 29s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 18.5 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:26:32
Tagged date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:26:32


Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 58mn 28s
Bit rate : 18.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 28.4 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 30.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.289
Stream size : 7.35 GiB (96%)
Title : DirtyDogz2013-1_track1.h264:fps=30 - Imported with GPAC 0.5.0-rev4065
Writing library : x264 core 123 r2189 35cf912
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=0 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=0 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=0 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=4 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=0 / open_gop=1 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc=2pass / mbtree=0 / bitrate=18000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.25 / pb_ratio=1.25 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:26:32
Tagged date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:33:32


Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 59mn 29s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 787 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 1 134 Kbps
Channel count : 2 channels
Original Channel count : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 335 MiB (4%)
Title : DirtyDogz2013-1-5-1-3-MovieMode_track1.aac - Imported with GPAC 0.5.0-rev4065
Encoded date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:33:10
Tagged date : UTC 2013-10-01 23:33:32

[sanlyn]

You already have a link to the BluRay Disc and AVCHD specs. According to those specs for BD disc, 30fps progressive is not compliant for 1920x1080 BD. Some authoring programs will accept it, some might not. Some players might have no problems with it, some will. Try it and see.

[erek]

i noticed that it said 23.97 or 24fps for Blu-Ray Disc, but how do movies like The Hobbit and other movies that are 48fps get away with authoring like that and being able to be fully compliant at 48fps progressive?

[sanlyn]

Get a copy of the BD disk and check its data with MediaInfo. Movies are usually shot at 23.976 fps progressive. Movies shot on DV like this TV movie will differ. Likely it's not 48fps progressive, but interlaced 24i, which means it displays 48 fields per second. I can't answer for the way some people make their BR discs. I make mine to the posted standard and never have problems.

[erek]

Get a copy of the BD disk and check its data with MediaInfo. Movies are usually shot at 23.976 fps progressive. Movies shot on DV like this TV movie will differ. Likely it's not 48fps progressive, but interlaced 24i, which means it displays 48 fields per second. I can't answer for the way some people make their BR discs. I make mine to the posted standard and never have problems.

What video editor, encoder, and authoring programs do you use?

[Cornucopia]

Your AAC Audio is not BD-compliant either, nor AVCHD compliant.

The Hobbit was SHOT & Edited/Finished on 48p FPS. The BDs for it (both 2D and 3D, which I own) are both 24/23.976. That's how anybody doing higher fps would do it - a downconversion, just like they downconverted the RAW/LOG cinema files to Linear/RGB/YUV for consumer distribution. Because consumers don't have any CE standards for seeing better than that (at least right now).

Most of the time, I use:
Editor: AVID MediaComposer, SonyVegasPro, AdobePremierePro, FCP7
Encoder: depends on codec, but AME, Mainconcept Totalcode, CCE, but also TMPGEnc, HCEnc, x264, Compressor, others
Authoring: Scenarist (BD, BD3D, DVD), Maestro (DVD), DVDArchitect/Vegas (BD, BD3D, DVD), DVDStudioPro, DoStudio, DVDLabPro, others

You must be doing something goofy because both of your sources are 29.97 and your output is 30. Should be EXACTLY the SAME.

Scott

[sanlyn]

The answer is a long one. Almost everything I do uses lossless AVI with lossless Lagarith compression. Denoising, major image repairs, color correction, etc., are done in Avisynth and VirtualDub and saved as lossless AVI. If I want fancy transitions, titles, slide shows, masking, etc., I feed lossless AVI into After Effects Pro CS3 and save the results as lossless AVI. I've also done some touchy color correction with AE but I'm still getting the hang of its more advanced features, and still with lossless AVI. For more simple transitions I use lossless avi in TMPGEnc Mastering Works v5. Encoding from lossless AVI is done with one of: HCEnc or TMPGenc Plus 2.5 for MPEG, and for HD I have X264 Encoder, TX264, and TMPGEnc Mastering Works 5. Now and then I do some simple edits and joins with already-encoded videos (no fancy transitions, denoising, or other work, because that's already been done or wasn't required): smart-rendering editors (TMPGEnc MPEG Editor V2, TMPGEnc MPEG Editor V3 or TMPGEnc Smart Renderer v4). For authoring I've used simple freebies in the past, but gave up on them because they lacked features. So my authoring apps now are TMPGEnc DVD Author v1 (that's from way back, but it still works and is idiot-easy), TMPGenc DVD Author v3, and TMPGEnc Authoring Works v5. There are a great many other choices around, but either I don't like them or I have little or no use for them with the stuff I already own.

[_Al_]

Your photo camera Canon EOS shoots progressive. Your Canon Vixia camcorder shoots interlace. Did you mean by previous post that you changed your specs while recording with Vixia to get 29.97p - progressive instead of interlace?

In any case, while exporting leave frame rate to 29.970, not 30p, 29.970 is perfectly fine for web, storage, everything.

BTW. You do not need any sophisticated software to get BD with NO menu. You just need NLE, Avisynth, x264 encoder and TsMuxer and ImgBurn. But that's another issue to get into it. You might find some threads here on videohelp with details.

[Brad]

how do movies like The Hobbit and other movies that are 48fps get away with authoring like that and being able to be fully compliant at 48fps progressive?

They don't. The HFR version of The Hobbit has never been released to the home.

[erek]

Your photo camera Canon EOS shoots progressive. Your Canon Vixia camcorder shoots interlace. Did you mean by previous post that you changed your specs while recording with Vixia to get 29.97p - progressive instead of interlace?

In any case, while exporting leave frame rate to 29.970, not 30p, 29.970 is perfectly fine for web, storage, everything.

BTW. You do not need any sophisticated software to get BD with NO menu. You just need NLE, Avisynth, x264 encoder and TsMuxer and ImgBurn. But that's another issue to get into it. You might find some threads here on videohelp with details.

I never realized that my Canon VIXIA shot Interlaced... i thought for sure it did 24p and 30p... I am also going to investigate the 30fps export versus 29.97p that i overlooked in kdenlive ... My camera is set to PF30.. there is a 60i and PF24 mode


here an interesting link about my camera and it's progressive capabilities put into question...

http://forum.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/archive/index.php/t-143632.html

[erek]

so it turns out that my project settings were set for 1080p 30fps instead of 1080p 29.97fps even though kdenlive correctly detected my clips at 29.97. What impact would exporting at 30 vs 29.97 for native 29.97 video have? I am going to change it over ofcourse, but I wonder what I have been messing up with my previous videos. Now in regard to my PF30 video from the Canon VIXIA HF100 in order to "extract" 24 or 30 frames i need to have kdenlive identify the 2:3 pulldown to extract the frames...

[erek]

Your AAC Audio is not BD-compliant either, nor AVCHD compliant.

The Hobbit was SHOT & Edited/Finished on 48p FPS. The BDs for it (both 2D and 3D, which I own) are both 24/23.976. That's how anybody doing higher fps would do it - a downconversion, just like they downconverted the RAW/LOG cinema files to Linear/RGB/YUV for consumer distribution. Because consumers don't have any CE standards for seeing better than that (at least right now).

Most of the time, I use:
Editor: AVID MediaComposer, SonyVegasPro, AdobePremierePro, FCP7
Encoder: depends on codec, but AME, Mainconcept Totalcode, CCE, but also TMPGEnc, HCEnc, x264, Compressor, others
Authoring: Scenarist (BD, BD3D, DVD), Maestro (DVD), DVDArchitect/Vegas (BD, BD3D, DVD), DVDStudioPro, DoStudio, DVDLabPro, others

You must be doing something goofy because both of your sources are 29.97 and your output is 30. Should be EXACTLY the SAME.

Scott

yes my project settings in kdenlive are 1080p 30fps instead of 1080p 29.97fps... for some reason i never thought it mattered... and i have no idea what happens whne you export 29.97 native footage to 30fps... also as it turns out my Canon VIXIA HF100 is doing 30i or 24i even though it's supposed to be 30p or 24p... the only way to "extract" the 30 or 24 frames is if the video editor identifies the 2:3 pulldown from my clips.


I considering switching both of my cameras to 24fps, and attempting to get the 2:3 pulldowns identified in kdenlive if possible

[erek]

I am attempting to use "Batch 3:2 Pulldown Remover" on my AVCHD .MTS PF30 files with lossless Lagarith Codec