How to add transparency to a video clip?

[budwzr]

I don't mind to make you a totally custom clock with some bling too. Give me some idea of what you most want in it. We'll have a contest for best clock.

[terrypin]

"This is what you want?"

Yes, thanks jagabo, but as I illustrated in post #15 that failed for me for the reasons I gave.

On which tracks in which editor did you place your background, clock and mask? How have you avoided black hand and numerals becoming partially transparent as in my case? What chroma setting was appled to the mask? Anything done to the original clock?

Of course, an unavoidable problem throughout this discussion is that we're using different products. You don't know MEP and I don't know whatever you're using! Did my description of the MEP chroma types in response to PDR help bridge the gap?

To summarise my aim:

For any section of an MEP video I want to be able to drag in an animated clock for a few seconds. I'd be happy with a clock with either a black (or near black) face, with white (or near white) hands and numerals. Or vice versa. Or a yellowish one like that I prepared earlier, with those neat shadows on the face.


But I want the clock to look just like the original, with solid face and with the hands and numerals having no 'residual transparency' allowing the varying background to be seen behind. I don't want to have to customise it every time I use it.

Trivially easy for a still image clock but so far not achieved for a clock video. I'm still trying though as I'm sure it is possible and I'll kick myself when I've done it.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

I don't mind to make you a totally custom clock with some bling too. Give me some idea of what you most want in it. We'll have a contest for best clock.

Thanks, that would be good! Just saw this after posting my reply to jagabo, in which I tried to summarise my aim.

But I still hope to beat you to it!

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

So did you get it figured out, or are you still stuck ?

Unfortunately the latter, but working on it again today!

See also my reply to jagabo.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[jagabo]

Again, I used AviSynth for my overlay. I was addressing post #19 where you said this about using a mask:

that's the approach I first tried but it failed. Because the mask (an appropriately sized white circle on a black background), while allowing the clock to be seen, then hides most of track 1.

I don't know what you meant by "hides most of track 1". So I was showing how a mask is supposed to work.

So you don't have the ability to overlay a video with a separate matte or alpha channel? What about using two overlays? One just a black circle on a white background (make white transparent), then the clock video with black as the transparent color. The hands of the clock will still be transparent but you'll see the black circle through them, not the original video image.

[poisondeathray]

Of course, an unavoidable problem throughout this discussion is that we're using different products. You don't know MEP and I don't know whatever you're using! Did my description of the MEP chroma types in response to PDR help bridge the gap?

Yes, part of the problem is MEP is using non-standard layout - looking at your screenshots, track order is reversed compared to most other programs - in virtually all other programs (video editors, image editors, compositing programs), you're looking down from top to the bottom. Things on higher tracks (lower numbers) cover up things on lower tracks (higher numbers) . In MEP, it looks reversed - things on the bottom "cover up" things on the top

I'm just guessing here, but it looks like you use the chroma key as before, but applied to the "alpha keying object" (the white circle, track 2), with the "alpha" setting

Alpha: This video effect uses the brightness of a video to control a transition effect
between two other videos on neighboring tracks. The additional videos should be
situated directly above and below the alpha-keying object.
In all black parts of the alpha-keying object, the top video is faded in, while in all white
passages the bottom video is shown. Grey passages are permeable for both videos
and create a mixture of the two. In the case of colored passages, the brightness of the
color is used for control purposes.
You can use the "Threshold value", "Transition area" and "Antispill" controls to fine-
tune your results, e. g. to remove reflections of hidden colors on surfaces or to
sharpen the transitions to objects.

track 1: background
track 2: "alpha keying object" (refered to as "mask" or "luma matte" by others in this thread); - it's black and white, white is "see through" , like jagabo's picture above post#22, it's called "mask" there
track 3: foreground (clock)

If it's too big (covers too much of background), resize the layer => I see there is a "Movement effects: size and position" - to adjust the size & position . You might have to resize both track 2 & 3 by the same value (I don't know if MEP can "link" tracks)

[poisondeathray]

I don't mind helping out making a clock video either, but you need to be more specific on the requirements, such as design , speed, frames .

It should be pretty easy to do a custom in MEP as well - at least then you can customize it exactly how you want; but I guess the problem is you can't export it with embedded alpha channel to use in other projects. If your program can export PNG with alpha, you can export an image sequence instead

Here is a very simple plain white face, black numbers/hands , 1280x720p30.0 , 720frames . Quicktime animation codec /MOV , premultiplied alpha (If your program needs a "straight" alpha, or has problems reading it, let me know)

[budwzr]

OK, but let's lay down some ground rules. No cheating, stealing, or otherwise purloining, off the web. Everything must be original.

[terrypin]

Bingo - thank you, I have it working!

I don't mind helping out making a clock video either, but you need to be more specific on the requirements, such as design , speed, frames .

That one you sent me below looks just fine. Or a negative of it. More ambitiously maybe an actual clock like that yellowish one I found and adjusted up-thread, with its hands showing shadows. But I'm very happy to get this one working, albeit with the limitations (probably down to MEP) which I've described later.

My typical project settings:

It should be pretty easy to do a custom in MEP as well - at least then you can customize it exactly how you want;

I haven't yet spent enough time on this and my enthusiasm dwindled when I learned that I couldn't export it in a convenient form. Handle rotation was giving me a problem, as MEP's rotation tools assume a central axis. So to make a minute hand I think it needs to be twice as long and with half of it made transparent. I'd be very interested to know the detail of how you made yours please.

but I guess the problem is you can't export it with embedded alpha channel to use in other projects.

Unfortunately that's the case. Was that one you sent me made with 'embedded alpha channel'. If so, is there anything here in MediaInfo's report that tells me that?

If your program can export PNG with alpha, you can export an image sequence instead

That looks like a No too.

Here is a very simple plain white face, black numbers/hands , 1280x720p30.0 , 720frames . Quicktime animation codec /MOV , premultiplied alpha (If your program needs a "straight" alpha, or has problems reading it, let me know)

Although it played fine in all the players I tried, it wouldn't import into MEP. No message, nothing. I import other MOVs regularly (my Canon Ixus 220 HS is my main source of video and that's MOV).

But I was able to convert it with SUPER 2008 to an MP4 and MEP was happy with that . Here's what it looks like:




The big feature that I'd hoped for may well be impossible to achieve? Namely being able to simply drag in the clock video clip and position and size it without the significant extra effort of also adding a mask and positioning and sizing that precisely to match. I tried to minimise that by copying the video effects from the clock to the mask; position pastes OK, but that still leaves sizing, which then affects position.

Really appreciate all the time and effort you've put into this.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[poisondeathray]

That one you sent me below looks just fine. Or a negative of it. More ambitiously maybe an actual clock like that yellowish one I found and adjusted up-thread, with its hands showing shadows. But I'm very happy to get this one working, albeit with the limitations (probably down to MEP) which I've described later.

If you want someone to help make you one, you have to be VERY specific, even use google images for "clock" and take a reference image. e.g. did you want "ticks" or gradations, etc...

It sounds like budwzr is up to the task

It should be pretty easy to do a custom in MEP as well - at least then you can customize it exactly how you want;

I haven't yet spent enough time on this and my enthusiasm dwindled when I learned that I couldn't export it in a convenient form. Handle rotation was giving me a problem, as MEP's rotation tools assume a central axis. So to make a minute hand I think it needs to be twice as long and with half of it made transparent. I'd be very interested to know the detail of how you made yours please.

It's very simple in most video editors. Does MEP have an "anchor point" ? this defines the axis around which rotation occurs. If it doesn't, then you have to make the layer (e.g. in an image editor), such that the base of the needle is right in the center, with transparency.

Rotation is just done with keyframes (I'm sure I saw somewhere that MEP has keyframes)

but I guess the problem is you can't export it with embedded alpha channel to use in other projects.

Unfortunately that's the case. Was that one you sent me made with 'embedded alpha channel'. If so, is there anything here in MediaInfo's report that tells me that?

Yes it was. In 99% of other video editors, you can just drop it on the time line. Mediainfo here doesn't tell you if there is an alpha channel . It's seems to be an incompatible format with MEP (which is weird , because this is one of the most commonly used formats for this purpose)

Do you have quicktime installed ?

Do you have a video sample where alpha channel works? or post a mediainfo report of it

It's probably just a matter finding a proper format that MEP understands

If your program can export PNG with alpha, you can export an image sequence instead

That looks like a No too.

BMP can have an alpha channel, see if there are options for that

But I was able to convert it with SUPER 2008 to an MP4 and MEP was happy with that . Here's what it looks like:

But it looks like you're using the "mask" or they call it "alpha mask" method with 3 tracks. Super will discard the embedded alpha

The big feature that I'd hoped for may well be impossible to achieve? Namely being able to simply drag in the clock video clip and position and size it without the significant extra effort of also adding a mask and positioning and sizing that precisely to match.

You just have to find a compatible format that MEP understands - so post the mediainfo report of one that works, and I can export it in that format , or someone can make a better, more customized fancy clock. I suspect uncompressed AVI will work

[jagabo]

Try this, pdr's clock converted to uncompressed ARGB AVI (in a ZIP file).
Or this, pdr's clock converted to animated GIF with alpha channel (in a ZIP file).

[poisondeathray]

Try these tests too, RGBA, uncompressed AVI, one is premultipled alpha, one is straight alpha

Just 2 frames to test if MEP "likes" it. (I inverted the colors - black clock face, white numbers/arrows)

Some programs have alpha interpretation options, but I suspect MEP probably doesn't

[poisondeathray]

The big feature that I'd hoped for may well be impossible to achieve? Namely being able to simply drag in the clock video clip and position and size it without the significant extra effort of also adding a mask and positioning and sizing that precisely to match. I tried to minimise that by copying the video effects from the clock to the mask; position pastes OK, but that still leaves sizing, which then affects position.

Since you can't export an embedded alpha channel (to use a clip in other projects) , one way other programs do this is they "link" tracks or "precompose" tracks. What this would do is "combine" track 2 & 3 , so it looks like a single track (let's call it track 4). So any manipulations like scaling, position, rotation , effects etc, would only need to be applied to track 4 only - in effect, to the program it looks like a single video , not 2 videos. Look for something like that in the manual

[terrypin]

Thanks guys, much to study tomorrow (before or after the Murray Wimbledon final).

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[budwzr]

My wife hit me with a bunch of hunny-dos, and I'm still digging out from under.

[terrypin]

It's very simple in most video editors. Does MEP have an "anchor point" ? this defines the axis around which rotation occurs. If it doesn't, then you have to make the layer (e.g. in an image editor), such that the base of the needle is right in the center, with transparency.

Yes, as mentioned in my last reply, but only around the centre.

Rotation is just done with keyframes (I'm sure I saw somewhere that MEP has keyframes)

Yes.

In 99% of other video editors, you can just drop it on the time line. Mediainfo here doesn't tell you if there is an alpha channel . It's seems to be an incompatible format with MEP (which is weird , because this is one of the most commonly used formats for this purpose)

Do you have quicktime installed ?

Yes. As mentioned, I use MOV regularly.

Do you have a video sample where alpha channel works? or post a mediainfo report of it

I do now - the two you just sent me! They both seem to work fine, thanks. (But did you say they were negatives of the last one?)

BMP can have an alpha channel, see if there are options for that

Don't think so.

But it looks like you're using the "mask" or they call it "alpha mask" method with 3 tracks. Super will discard the embedded alpha

Agreed, that's presumably why I couldn't use it without a mask. But I' must have misunderstood the following, which I took as how you were suggesting I use your clock video?

"track 1: background
track 2: "alpha keying object" (refered to as "mask" or "luma matte" by others in this thread); - it's black and white, white is "see through" , like jagabo's picture above post#22, it's called "mask" there
track 3: foreground (clock)"

You just have to find a compatible format that MEP understands - so post the mediainfo report of one that works, and I can export it in that format , or someone can make a better, more customized fancy clock. I suspect uncompressed AVI will work

Well, if I'm still following correctly, both those formats you've most recently sent happily do cut the mustard, yes? If so, I'm looking forward to the full video. Preferably in black on white; now that I've seen it the black clock face while admirably readable does looks a bit grim, don't you think?


--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[jagabo]

BMP can have an alpha channel, see if there are options for that

Don't think so.

Look to see if there's a 24 bit vs 32 bit BMP option somewhere. The extra 8 bits is the alpha channel.

[poisondeathray]

It's very simple in most video editors. Does MEP have an "anchor point" ? this defines the axis around which rotation occurs. If it doesn't, then you have to make the layer (e.g. in an image editor), such that the base of the needle is right in the center, with transparency.

Yes, as mentioned in my last reply, but only around the centre.

right, so you would just do that in an image editor, if MEP doesn't have tools to do that internally

do you understand what I was saying above ? or would you like an example ?

Do you have a video sample where alpha channel works? or post a mediainfo report of it

I do now - the two you just sent me! They both seem to work fine, thanks. (But did you say they were negatives of the last one?)

Yes, I said it was "inverted" which means a "negative" of the 1st one

But it looks like you're using the "mask" or they call it "alpha mask" method with 3 tracks. Super will discard the embedded alpha

Agreed, that's presumably why I couldn't use it without a mask. But I' must have misunderstood the following, which I took as how you were suggesting I use your clock video?

"track 1: background
track 2: "alpha keying object" (refered to as "mask" or "luma matte" by others in this thread); - it's black and white, white is "see through" , like jagabo's picture above post#22, it's called "mask" there
track 3: foreground (clock)"

No - That was me guessing instructions on how to do a luma matte or mask in MEP - ie. if you wanted to key out the yellow clock without getting transparency in the numbers and arrows (since they were black)

It's basically the same idea as what jagabo is showing in post #22, but with MEP
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/357196-How-to-add-transparency-to-a-video-clip?p=22...=1#post2252395

You just have to find a compatible format that MEP understands - so post the mediainfo report of one that works, and I can export it in that format , or someone can make a better, more customized fancy clock. I suspect uncompressed AVI will work

Well, if I'm still following correctly, both those formats you've most recently sent happily do cut the mustard, yes? If so, I'm looking forward to the full video. Preferably in black on white; now that I've seen it the black clock face while admirably readable does looks a bit grim, don't you think?

Yes they seem to work ok on your screenshot . Was anything applied ? (any effects besides position and scaling) , or did you just drop it on the timeline ?

I don't know what you're using it for (what scenario, what theme, what colors or background videos you're working with, etc...), so I cannot comment on if it looks "grim" or not . I can make it black numbers/ arrows on white clock face, and this one will be uncompressed RGBA in AVI . I think jagabo did one above as well - it doesn't matter I'll upload one anyway . You can also invert this video (swap black with white), MEP should (might?) have filters for that

[budwzr]

Hey, I'll be freed up in an hour or two. I want to get in on this....hold the fort. I have an awesome 3D clock in the cooker. This thing winks, blinks, and stinks too!

Shoots particles too!!! (hasta lumbago bastidos)

[budwzr]

OK, I'm back. Whew, this thread is a mile long now. It's a lot of reading, but I'll try. Unless somebody can give a synopsis.

[terrypin]

This thing winks, blinks, and stinks too!

Sounds like an excerpt from a Carl Hiassen novel! Goes into my 'phrases I must try sometime', together with 'hunny-dos' which struck a rich chord.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

Try this, pdr's clock converted to uncompressed ARGB AVI (in a ZIP file).
Or this, pdr's clock converted to animated GIF with alpha channel (in a ZIP file).

The AVI is great - looks good and works directly with no mask. Huge size though at 2.5 GB! BTW, I don't need audio.

Here's an example of typical usage:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KmaEw_-Hms&feature=youtube_gdata_player

MEP didn't play the GIF.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[budwzr]

Hahaha. Can MEP import still sequences?

My clock is already made in my mind, but I haven't actually done it yet due to the probability it won't work in your software.

[jagabo]

The AVI is great - looks good and works directly with no mask. Huge size though at 2.5 GB!

I sent it as uncompressed ARGB for maximum compatibility. You can use a codec that supports 32 bit ARGB to compress it -- like UT video codec or Lagarith. Lagarith compressed it down to 22 MB.

[terrypin]

I'm not too confident working with these long cascaded quotes so I'll hedge my bets and display my latest in blue.

It's very simple in most video editors. Does MEP have an "anchor point" ? this defines the axis around which rotation occurs. If it doesn't, then you have to make the layer (e.g. in an image editor), such that the base of the needle is right in the center, with transparency.

Yes, as mentioned in my last reply, but only around the centre.

right, so you would just do that in an image editor, if MEP doesn't have tools to do that internally

do you understand what I was saying above ? or would you like an example ?

Yes, understood thanks. I use PaintShop Pro.

Do you have a video sample where alpha channel works? or post a mediainfo report of it

I do now - the two you just sent me! They both seem to work fine, thanks. (But did you say they were negatives of the last one?)

"Yes, I said it was "inverted" which means a "negative" of the 1st one"

But wasn't it still a black face like the last one?

But it looks like you're using the "mask" or they call it "alpha mask" method with 3 tracks. Super will discard the embedded alpha

Agreed, that's presumably why I couldn't use it without a mask. But I' must have misunderstood the following, which I took as how you were suggesting I use your clock video?

"track 1: background
track 2: "alpha keying object" (refered to as "mask" or "luma matte" by others in this thread); - it's black and white, white is "see through" , like jagabo's picture above post#22, it's called "mask" there
track 3: foreground (clock)"

No - That was me guessing instructions on how to do a luma matte or mask in MEP - ie. if you wanted to key out the yellow clock without getting transparency in the numbers and arrows (since they were black)

It's basically the same idea as what jagabo is showing in post #22, but with MEP
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/357196-How-to-add-transparency-to-a-video-clip?p=22...=1#post2252395
[/quote]

Understood.

You just have to find a compatible format that MEP understands - so post the mediainfo report of one that works, and I can export it in that format , or someone can make a better, more customized fancy clock. I suspect uncompressed AVI will work

Well, if I'm still following correctly, both those formats you've most recently sent happily do cut the mustard, yes? If so, I'm looking forward to the full video. Preferably in black on white; now that I've seen it the black clock face while admirably readable does looks a bit grim, don't you think?

Yes they seem to work ok on your screenshot . Was anything applied ? (any effects besides position and scaling) , or did you just drop it on the timeline ?

That's odd, I thought the embedded images here were dynamic? I added 'Look, no masks!' in an edit immediately after posting #46.

I don't know what you're using it for (what scenario, what theme, what colors or background videos you're working with, etc...), so I cannot comment on if it looks "grim" or not .

Those earlier examples I gave were fairly typical. And I did describe them as holiday DVDs in post #1. See also the YT example in my reply to jagabo a short while ago. I'm using that background in track 1 throughout for consistency.

I can make it black numbers/ arrows on white clock face, and this one will be uncompressed RGBA in AVI . I think jagabo did one above as well - it doesn't matter I'll upload one anyway . You can also invert this video (swap black with white), MEP should (might?) have filters for that

Thanks, black numbers/ arrows on a white clock face is my current preference. When I had to use a mask one upside was that I simulated a black border to the white clock face as you saw from the screenshots. So that would be a nice touch in the alpha versions too please, if it's straightforward.

I'll try swapping too.

Unfortunately PDR-Uncomp-Premult-BW.avi crashed MEP. Got the hour glass indefinitely so forcibly closed MEP after 5-10 minutes.

Huge file too! At 2.6 GB it's approaching the expected size of my current video project! Same with the AVI from jagabo, but that worked fine.

As you see, I'm just extracting fragments of it in practice, so shouldn't be too serious an impact. Presumably no way to compress these AVIs and still retain alpha?


--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[jagabo]

BTW, pdr's clock has the hour hand moving two hours for every revolution of the minute hand.

[budwzr]

I wish we could get a definitive answer as to what exactly MEP supports. I don't want to install a trial because they spam you to death afterward, and I don't want any TSR's on my editing computer.

[poisondeathray]

BTW, pdr's clock has the hour hand moving two hours for every revolution of the minute hand.

hahaha... ooops

I can upload a fixed one, but now I'm confused as to what format works

Unfortunately PDR-Uncomp-Premult-BW.avi crashed MEP. Got the hour glass indefinitely so forcibly closed MEP after 5-10 minutes.

Why would one version work (the small 2 frame version), but the other crash? Maybe memory issue ? But jagabo's worked...

[terrypin]

Hahaha. Can MEP import still sequences?

I'm not sure, never tried it. If you send me a small example I'll let you know.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[budwzr]

I wish the OP would switch to Vegas Studio. $45. http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/moviestudio.

Yes, it would mean dumping Magix, and that's a waste. But getting on the right path is crucial. And the purchase price is redeemable towards future upgrades.