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This topic has been discussed so many times...
I am in the process of converting my numerous VHS tapes to AVI files. I use a Super VHS recorder to play the videos. (These videos are in the VHS format and are not Super VHS). I use a JVC HR-S8960 which has a Time Base Corrector with Digital Noise Reduction.
My VHS video library consist of VHS videos which were copied from VHS-C cassettes, various cameras with a wide variety of quality were used. I also found some original VHS-C cassettes, which I also recorded now in AVI. It is therefore clear that the quality of the videos vary greatly. The input therefore varies between very bad and relatively OK. (Please see the clips)
My capture card is an AverMedia capture card which I used to capture these videos. I captured with Virtualdub, compressed with Lagarith codec.
The problem that I encountered was that I had to do a lot of editing, just to get the sequence correct and then I also inserted as much as possible of the original VHS-C videos as the initial quality of the VHS-C was better. For example, I made a series for every child way back and then cut out certain scenes that were not applicable to that child. (This was a bad move!!)I am now combining all the scenes of the three children, holidays, etc. into one file/ film per year- heaps of cutting and pasting, adding titles, etc.Code:General Complete name : J:\1. VHS Video projek 2013\1996\Aug-Sept 1996 VHS C.avi Format : AVI Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave Format profile : OpenDML File size : 5.78 GiB Duration : 16mn 13s Overall bit rate : 51.0 Mbps Writing library : VirtualDub build 32842/release Video ID : 0 Format : Lagarith Codec ID : LAGS Duration : 16mn 13s Bit rate : 49.4 Mbps Width : 720 pixels Height : 576 pixels Display aspect ratio : 5:4 Frame rate : 25.000 fps Standard : PAL Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2 Bit depth : 8 bits Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 4.769 Stream size : 5.61 GiB (97%) Audio ID : 1 Format : PCM Format settings, Endianness : Little Format settings, Sign : Signed Codec ID : 1 Duration : 16mn 13s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Bit depth : 16 bits Stream size : 178 MiB (3%) Interleave, duration : 40 ms (1.00 video frame) Interleave, preload duration : 500 ms
I found that the editing was too much for me in Virtualdub, but the problem was that I struggled to open these captured AVI files with many editing programmes, for instance, I usually use Pinnacle, but Pinnacle could not open these files that used the Lagarith codec. So, I used PowerDirector.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/352796-Unable-to-load-AVI-files-into-Pinnacle-15-fo...ighlight=avz10
After editing in PowerDirector, I again saved these files as AVI.
I cut a few clips on VD last night, but forgot to compress it. These are the ones that I attach:Code:General Complete name : J:\1. VHS Video projek 2013\1990\1990 finaal.avi Format : AVI Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave Commercial name : DV Format profile : OpenDML File size : 17.5 GiB Duration : 1h 26mn Overall bit rate mode : Constant Overall bit rate : 28.8 Mbps Video ID : 0 Format : DV Duration : 1h 26mn Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps Encoded bit rate : 28.8 Mbps Width : 720 pixels Height : 576 pixels Display aspect ratio : 4:3 (why the difference from the first video?) Frame rate mode : Constant Frame rate : 25.000 fps Standard : PAL Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Bottom Field First Compression mode : Lossy (Please note) Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357(why the difference from the first video?) Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00 Time code source : Subcode time code Stream size : 17.5 GiB (100%) Audio ID : 0-0 Format : PCM Muxing mode : DV Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1 Duration : 1h 26mn Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps Encoded bit rate : 0 bps Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Bit depth : 16 bits Stream size : 954 MiB (5%) Encoded stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)
Unfortunately, due to space constraints, after editing, I deleted the original files that were captured in Virtualdub.Code:General Complete name : C:\Users\ALBIE\Documents\Desktop\New folder\3 (1).avi Format : AVI Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave File size : 35.8 MiB Duration : 1s 200ms Overall bit rate : 250 Mbps Writing library : VirtualDub build 32842/release Video ID : 0 Format : RGB Codec ID : 0x00000000 Codec ID/Info : Basic Windows bitmap format. 1, 4 and 8 bpp versions are palettised. 16, 24 and 32bpp contain raw RGB samples Duration : 1s 200ms Bit rate : 249 Mbps Width : 720 pixels Height : 576 pixels Display aspect ratio : 5:4 (see the difference again) Frame rate : 25.000 fps Standard : PAL Bit depth : 8 bits Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 24.000 (see the difference again) Stream size : 35.6 MiB (99%) Audio ID : 1 Format : PCM Format settings, Endianness : Little Format settings, Sign : Signed Codec ID : 1 Duration : 1s 200ms Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Bit depth : 16 bits Stream size : 225 KiB (1%) Alignment : Aligned on interleaves Interleave, duration : 63 ms (1.58 video frames) Interleave, preload duration : 500 ms
Apologies for the long post
- As the quality varies so much, I realize that I cannot use a lot of AviSynth or VD plugins, but would appreciate a comment on one or 2 filters that might just be helpful. I suppose these will probably have to do with VHS artifacts, sharpness, noise and color.
- Before I save these files as my final AVI's and before encoding them to mpeg2, should I run them through Virtualdub with specific settings?
- It is difficult to see if there is some distortion in the frames: 4:3 in stead of 5:4
Albie
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I found this article on this site: engon audio – Video
http://www.engon.de/audio/vhs4_en.htmLast edited by avz10; 1st Jul 2013 at 11:38. Reason: website added
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Could you not have instead provided a link to an HTML version of the article? Maybe jagabo and/or sanlyn will actually be willing to download your rar file and take a look at it, but I doubt that anybody else will.
I have no experience in using VirtualDub to do this and thus cannot help. I just wanted to point out for the future that providing docs this way isn't really the best idea around here. -
The .rar is "docx", which most people can't read anyway because it's incompatible with other versions of Microsoft Word.
I can't answer for Pinnacle's behavior. I tried three versions over the years and was dissatisfied with all three. I never tried Power Director, having seen too many complaints about its behavior and quality. There are many other free and paid utilities that are more useful and flexible. I'm not intimately familiar with most of the free offerings except for Avisynth, VirtualDub, HCenc, TX264, and many free utilities such as DGIndex.
Power Director encoded your AVI as DV ("Digital Video" encoding). DV is not a lossless encoder. Also note that "AVI" is not a codec, it's a container. AVI can contain lossless uncompressed video, lossless Lagarith, lossy DivX, lossy DV, lossy XVID, etc.Originally Posted by avz10
Not different. The display aspect ratio of the DV file is the same display aspect ratio as your original capture.Code:Display aspect ratio : 4:3 (why the difference from the first video?)
This requires some care during processing. Your original capture is Top Field First, not BFF. "DV" is Bottom Field First by default.Code:Scan order : Bottom Field First
As noted earlier, DV encoding is not lossless. You have a different bits-per-pixel count because you are using different codecs.Code:Compression mode : Lossy (Please note) Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357(why the difference from the first video?)
DV is YV12. If your original capture was YUY2 (4:2:2), encoding to DV has cost some chroma information.Code:Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Not so difficult. 5:4 is more similar to a square image than is 4:3.Originally Posted by avz10
The AVI clips are 720x576. That frame size has a physical aspect ratio of 5:4. Unencoded AVI does not have a "display aspect ratio". When encoded to PAL, the encoded display aspect ratio will be 4:3. If you want to see how the frames will display at 4:3 in VirtualDub, right-click on either of the view windows and select "4:3" from the menu that pops up.
1.1.avi: oversturated and elevated red. Can be fixed with ColorMill. The "rip" (thin gray horizontal streak) extends over too many frames to be fixed in VirtualDub, but the built-in temporal smoother set to about 4 or 5 cleans some of it. IF the "comb" effect bothers you, view the video in a media player than deinterlaces during play. If you want PAL DVD as a final product, PAL DVD is usually interlaced for smoother motion on TV. Players and TV will deinterlace while they play. Otherwise, the interlace comb effect can be fixed in Avisynth. You can deinterlace with VirtualDub's yadif deinterlace, but its quality will be inferior to the way Avisynth plugins could handle it.
3(1).avi: The streaks can't be repaired in VirtualDub. They might be partially fixed in Avisynth. The green flutter across the top border can't be fixed in VirtualDub.
3.avi: The streak can't be repaired. The frame with the blue/green flash can't be repaired with VirtualDub. Gamma is slightly too high and the middle tones need more red (can be fixed with ColorMill).
5(1).avi: the streaks can't be repaired in VirtualDub, but might be partially fixed in AVisynth. The magenta discoloration (rainbows) in the blue shirt can be partially repaired with Camcorder Color Denoise, but can be almost completely eliminated in Avisynth. Yellow stain along the bottom can be masked with VirtualDub's "Border Control" plugin, but could be cleaned less destructively in Avisynth.Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:06.
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Apologies- I have added the link.Code:
Could you not have instead provided a link to an HTML version of the article?
Thanks for all the comments.
I just want to mention again that I took the PowerDirector route, to be able to cut/delete and paste in storyboard/timeline view as there were many duplicates, some VHS-C cassettes, etc. I captured approximately 60 three hour VHS cassettes. I now have basically all my videos as files, with some subtitles, arranged per year since 1986 till 2005 when I got my first digital video camera.
The reason why I posted the clips was to show the vast difference in the quality that has all been thrown together!(But my wife sees no difference at all!!)
The plan with this project is to:
- Decide what AviSynth or VD filters I should use- obviously the settings should be low in most cases, otherwise some clips will look abnormal
- Save again as AVI and also encode with HCEnc to mpeg to make DVDs. I will save all of this.
This is are excellent advice that I will use:
Code:Otherwise, the interlace comb effect can be fixed in Avisynth.
Code:Can be fixed with ColorMill
Code:but the built-in temporal smoother set to about 4 or 5 cleans some of it.
What I plan to do is to make a short video with clips from different years and try to get settings that will improve most of the clips, but obviously, this will be far from perfect, as the original videos vary so much.Code:but might be partially fixed in AVisynth. The magenta discoloration (rainbows) in the blue shirt can be partially repaired with Camcorder Color Denoise, but can be almost completely eliminated in Avisynth.
These are the filters that were used in the link that I posted:
I copied parts of the scripts that you/we used in
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/355843-Virtualdub-filters-For-8mm-Film-That-Was-Cap...s?goto=newpost
I know that the situation is totally different, but the final goal of that project was to convert VHS to DV. I have copied parts of the scripts. If you can give me an idea what plugins might be useful for this project, I can play a bit and see what the outcomes are.
Any advice??Code:LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mt_masktools-25.dll") # <- "2.5" version LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvtools2.dll") Import("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\sRestore.avs") AssumeTFF().QTGMC(preset="very fast",TR0=2) sRestore(Frate=17.5) Cnr2("xxx",4,5,255) ConvertToYV12(interlaced=false) SmoothLevels(8, 1.4, 255, 15, 250, chroma=200, limiter=0, smooth=200, dither=100) ColorYUV(off_y=-20,off_v=3,cont_u=-50) SGradation(gamma=0.90) LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\avstp.dll") LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\dither.dll") LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\mt_masktools-26.dll") # <- "2.6" version Import("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\Dither.avs") Import("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\mt_xxpand_multi.avs") fft3dfilter(sigma=.1, sigma2=.3, sigma3=.5, sigma4=18, plane=3) AddBorders(4,0,4,0).ChromaShift(c=4,u=4).ChromaShift(v=-4).Crop(4,0,-4,0) mergechroma(awarpsharp2(depth=30, type=1, blur=1, chroma=4)) # ----- Tweak contrast after effects of filters ------ ColorYUV(gamma_y=50,cont_y=20,off_y=-8) GradFun3(thr=1.1,mask=0) Dither_convert_yuv_to_rgb(matrix="601",interlaced=false,tv_range=true,cplace="MPEG2",lsb_in=false,output="rgb32") Crop(12,6,-8,-6).AddBorders(10,6,10,6) LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\avstp.dll") LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\dither.dll") LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\mt_masktools-26.dll") # <- "2.6" version Import("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\Dither.avs") Import("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\mt_xxpand_multi.avs") LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\dither\mvtools2.dll") Dither_convert_rgb_to_yuv(matrix="601",interlaced=false,tv_range=true,cplace="MPEG2",lsb=false,output="YV12") ColorYUV(cont_y=-5) LSFMod(defaults="slow",strength=50) GradFun3() -
If you want DVD you want MPEG, not DV. They are not the same thing. Going successively from one to the other will entail quality loss.Originally Posted by avz10
The Avisynth script you posted was indeed customized for a different and far more difficult video. Using the same filters for every video is like using the same kitchen cabinets and appliances for every room in your house. Offhand, you wouldn't use any of those plugins for the AVI's you posted. And it won't work as posted.
I can't say why the VirtualDub filter list was used. Why would one deinterlace everything in VirtualDub when the Avisynth script already has a deinterlacer? Why are you resizing? sRestore removes duplicate frames and helps restore the video's original frame rate -- is there a need to remove duplicate and blended frames from your other videos and change the frame rate? The SmoothLevels and ColorYUV settings were for a badly discolored video. Are your other videos discolored in the same way? The dither plugins and functions were used to make two colorspace changes in a way that helped prevent banding and block noise with substandard and damaged video. Do your other videos require that special treatment?
I would advise against deinterlacing with VirtualDub. Deinterlacing alone won't solve the problems seen in your AVI's, and there often are other ways to make repairs. The "VHS" filter is ineffective for what those AVI's appear to need. 126% saturation with the HSI plugin is seldom necessary -- ColorMill has a better saturation function anyway.
Throwing filters at video without knowing what they do is inefficient and almost always damaging. Filters and color correction can't be prescribed wholesale for every video, especially when each video has as much variation as you describe. Because they appear to be as personally valuable as family heirlooms, you should use appropriate care -- and time -- for each. If you have neither the time nor the hardware to get what you want, you might consider having the work done for you. That would of course be expensive, but even a quality lab would take its time delivering resultsLast edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:06.
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I did some cleanup on the 4 AVI samples. They have field order and interlace problems. I never did figure out what the field order should be on a couple of these, but pricessing was done as TFF; they are encoded as BFF. I undewrstand European VHS-C to be BFF, but the tape playeys plays them as TFF and (I think) PowerDirector made them BFF, and fouled up interlacing. Something in your processing chain is generating a 16x16-pixel noise pattern. There is also dot crawl and sawtooth edges (aliasing from improper interlace, and by re-encoding ???). I'm not sure whether these were once DV, or how you processed the originals. The problems are obvious in the 2X blowup image below:
[Attachment 18655 - Click to enlarge]
Attached is a .zip of 4 text files explaining the plugins used. Most of the work was trying to eliminate streaks, including the green top-border noise in AVI 3-1. The green can't be fixed because this video has already gone through 2 stages of RGB. The 16x16 grid noise shows as faint horizontal lines. Encoding these to PAL MPEG will often result in blocky grain. Not all streaks could be fixed. This is frame-by-frame work. It would take forever.
You should find a tape player with better tracking that won't inflict further damage. Try to keep field priority consistent. Now that ytour original captures are gone, fixing the remainders would be very difficult.Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:07. Reason: post new Scripts_all.zip with corrected typos
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If it's anything, it's TFF - but it's just a convention to think of it as such. An analogue video signal is simply a string of top and bottom fields - which one comes "first" depends on when you start looking. Analogue interlaced video is never sent as frames. The "frames" consisting of specific pairs of fields combined into a single numbered frame - these exist only in the standards - they don't exist in the signal itself, and they never exist on a CRT display.Originally Posted by sanlyn
Capture devices usually follow the standard/convention - but if they ignore it and grab the opposite/"wrong" field order (i.e. start capturing NTSC with a top field, or start capturing PAL with a bottom field), it doesn't actually do any harm at all as long as the resulting combined frames are flagged correctly. In a frame, what matters is which field in that frame really came first, not what any standard says.
That said, professional people usually follow the standards to ensure that cuts are made on whole frames and that progressive content in interlaced frames lines up with the frames (for 50Hz video at least). DV (always BFF) and I think SDI (always TFF IIRC) messes this up.
Lesser quality consumer capture devices can mess up and swap the field order during the video, when the video signal isn't pristine. Some bump the picture up or down by a line - sometimes this is the cause of the problem, sometimes I think it's their attempt to fix it.
Cheers,
David. -
Understood. I'm trying to say that something is amiss with the O.P.'s capture setup or capture gear/software, as regards both the field order (which seemed to change and then re-set for several frames in one of the short samples, 1-1.avi), interlace artifacts, and the 16x16-pixel noise pattern. I don't have an answer for the O.P. concerning those problems, I just reported that I saw them. Unfortunately the original captures are gone, so we have nothing to compare. Nor do I fully understand why 3 of the samples encoded correctly as BFF (while TFF was required during filtering), but a fourth would only encoded properly as TFF. So some sort of field out-of-sync condition exists, but I don't know what intermediate processing those AVI's went through.
MediaInfo reports BFF in an early post here. Yet viewing them as BFF separated fields or deinterlaced frames in ViurtualDub gives back-and-forth motion.Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:07.
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Thanks for your last post. I appreciate the work done, especially at studying clips and the effort at trying scripts.
I think I have not been clear enough in my previous posts. This has caused a misunderstanding. My apologies.
I would like to explain the goal of my project again and take you along the journey which started September 2012. As you know, I capture with a JVC HR-S8960 with the TBC/DNR feature.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/349161-Are-these-VCR-s-Super-VHS-machines-to-use-fo...ighlight=avz10
Code:#6 Finding a JVC or Panasonic SVHS vcr with the TBC/DNR feature in your part of the world may be difficult
The videos that were captured, originated from my brother (a Panasonic camcorder), my father-in-law (2 JVS camcorders over the years) and myself, also two camcorders over the years, as well as some VHS-C cassettes. It is therefore obvious that the quality of the videos vary greatly. (Clip 3 from #1 is from the worst camera). I captured and edited approximately 60 three hour cassettesCode:#6 In PAL format, the TBC/DNR vcrs mentioned the most are Panasonic NV-FS200 and a couple of JVCs like HR-S8965EEK.
The goal of this project is to have the whole collection of all my videos in chronological order.
I have been busy with this project since September 2012, with my first post in this regard on Videohelp on 11 September.
Initially, in VHS format, the only capturing that took place was from VHS-C to VHS, done by different video machines of which the quality also varied over the years..
As you know, I captured these videos with Virtualdub, compressed with Lagarith codec. The first code in this thread gave the info of that end result, but this was a straight forward capture and the cassettes were played on the best VCR I could getin South Africa at that time.
Putting all the scenes in chronological order, was a nightmare. I could not do it with Virtualdub and most commercial video editors cannot open the Lagarith codec.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/352796-Unable-to-load-AVI-files-into-Pinnacle-15-fo...ighlight=avz10
That is the reason why I used PowerDirector.Code:#25 Avz10, I tried several types of codecs and none of them worked with Pinnacle. Honestly better switch to another video editor like as VEGAS/POWER DIRECTOR. You will like the PD storyboard. Claudio
I realized now that I made a mistake by editing in PowerDirector, but I tried to follow the advice that I got from this forum. I am still unsure with what video editor I should have edited the original captured video. One hour of edited video would have approximately 30 clips/scenes, most of them from different sources. It took me weeks to edit, arrange, etc the clips from different videos in chronological order. So, I doubt it if a professional company would use different filters every few minutes.
After editing in PowerDirector, I again saved these files as AVI. Unfortunately, it was saved as lossy compression mode DV, bottom field first, as you pointed out.This is where you made a number of useful comments.
As I stated, I had to delete the original files that were captured in Virtualdub, due to space constraints. (I have a 2TB external HD).
This is where I am now. I have 694 GB of video, edited, and grouped in different years in lossy DV. I have not even tried any filter!
The reason why I thought to keep both the AVI-DV files as well as to convert the files to mpeg, is to have different formats for saving it for future purposes.Code:If you want DVD you want MPEG, not DV. They are not the same thing. Going successively from one to the other will entail quality loss.
I have read many threads and articles on the internet, but could not get guidance regarding a very simple AviSynth script that would improve the image to some extent, considering the variety of clips used.
As the quality varies so much, I realize that I cannot use a lot of AviSynth as well as VD plugins and would only be able to use a few filters.
You used among others RemoveSpots.avs; ReplaceFramesMC2.avs; LSFMod.avsi; AddGrainC.dll; santiag.avsi; dither ;etc, etc. Previously you also mentioned temporal smoother and we used QTGMC to deinterlace and denoise my other project. In VD I was thinking that one could consider Camcorder Color Denoise and ColorMill. You also mentioned Gradation Curves, Hue/Saturation/Intensity (HSI) and levels.
I was considering de-interlacing, trying to remove the 16x16 noise pattern, look at levels, some denoisingperhaps some sharpening and look at the eventual color.
The reason why I posted the video clips in my first post was to show the vast difference in the quality that I am working with, all in one video!
The plan with this project is therefore to decide on the minimum AviSynth or VD filters I can use to improve the image slightly. I cannot hope on more than slightly, as I would think that the quality of some scenes would deteriorate.
Code:I can't say why the
Code:VirtualDub filter list was used. Why would one deinterlace everything in VirtualDub when the Avisynth script already has a deinterlacer? Why are you resizing?
The reason why I posted this filter chain, was to show what VD filters the author of that article used. This was therefore posted for discussion purposes. This was not my idea to use that filter chain.
Code:The
I copied and pasted parts of the scripts that you/we used inCode:Avisynth script you posted was indeed customized for a different and far more difficult video. Using the same filters for every video is like using the same kitchen cabinets and appliances for every room in your house. Would you put ovens in your bedrooms?
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/355843-Virtualdub-filters-For-8mm-Film-That-Was-Cap...s?goto=newpost
Insert
This is by no means a script. I just thought that by highlighting those scripts, you could give me an idea what filters might be helpful, as I begin to understand some of these plug-ins- but this might have caused you to understand that this is a script and I did not clearly spell out my intent.
With regards to time, I have been busy with the project since September 2012, but lack of time is always an issue. Most of the time was spent to organize the scenes in a chronological order.Code:If you have neither the time nor the hardware to get what you want, you might consider having the work done for you. That would of course be expensive, but even a quality lab would take its time delivering results.
My hardware is the following:
I have a 2.80 gigahertz Intel Core i5-2300 64 bit Multi-core PC that I work with. Windows 7 Ultimate (x64) Service Pack 1 (build 7601) is installed. I have two internal hard drives (160 and 500 GB) and one external hard drive of 2 TB. I have a Samsung SMBX2031 19.9" monitor.
I use a JVC HR-S8960 which has a Time Base Corrector with Digital Noise Reduction as stated before.
Unsure where it came fromCode:There is also dot crawl and sawtooth edges (aliasing from improper interlace, and by re-encoding ???)
I hope this is clear now- captured once from VHS-C to VHS; then captured and converted to DV, then edited in PowerDirector and saved as AVI DV as lossy DV.Code:I'm not sure whether these were once DV, or how you processed the originals
That will probably be impossible.Code:You should find a tape player with better tracking that won't inflict further damage.
So, my difficult request- a very simple AviSyntyh script to improve most of the video to some extent. Something perfect in a project of this magnitude will not be possible.
I am uploading a video clip which were combined from 3 different cameras.
Last edited by avz10; 3rd Jul 2013 at 15:04.
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Thank you for that information. I get tired just thinking about all your hard work.
Avisynth was used to help with some rips and streaks, basic denoising, and in one case to repair a faulty interlace that appeared to have field-switching bugs. VirtualDub did the rest. Unfortunately VDub has no filters that are comparable to those Avisynth plugins; the VirtualDub sharpener that is more like LSFMod would be in NeatVideo (but NeatVideo doesn't have some of LSFMod's settings that help prevent halos, posterization, and clay face effects). Even with Avisynth for the streaks, each was set up manually frame-by-frame.
That leaves VirtualDub alone, which means living without some repairs. I don't know where the 16x16 noise grid originated, but even in Avisynth it won't disappear. Deinterlacing might cure many but not all of the edge artifacts, but running 30 captures through a superior deinterlacer like QTGMC could find your grandchildren finishing that chore for you. If you want to try to clear some aliasing and poor interlacing, your best VDub choice is yadif field-discard deinterlace; keep the top field (or whichever field you think looks better) and discard the other. That will entail a sharpness penalty, which is why it's not usually recommended for soft or blurry video. But it might be your only VDub choice against aliasing. The other VDub filters used were ColorMill, gradation curves, and the others mentioned here and in the earlier thread.
The 1-1.AVi of the infant is obviously too red and contrasty, with mixed lighting sources. If you filter to correct it, the same settings won't work with the 5-1.AVI of the elderly kinsman; that scene has a different problem -- it's too blue. The girls jumping up and down had oversaturated bright red that appears to "glow". If you correct that with one set of color filters, the infant child in the other scene will look green.
I assume you're not using histograms or pixel samplers. Professionals pay high prices for programs having those tools, but VDub's versions are free. They aren't difficult to learn. Free tutorials on Photoshop sites have good, clear, brief examples of how color histograms are used to analyze and correct color and contrast. The VDub ColorTools histogram is similar to those in high-end programs. Camcorder Color Denoise and VDub's built-in temporal smoother should be mainstay denoisers. 2D Cleaner and MSU's filters are too problematic, and they don't address the kind of noise in your samples. If you could get accustomed to using NeatVideo properly and moderately, you'll have several denoisers in one. Chroma cleaners (for color blotches, stains, and rainbows) won't be effective; those glitches should have been fixed in the original YUV captures.
I realize that it's too late to remedy problems caused by copying tape to tape. Your JVC is a worthy VCR, and you definitely need its tbc. For future reference, I understand that there are adapters made for playing VHS-C tapes in VHS players. I don't know about their availability, or whether your JVC would like it.
Other than the tech problems mentioned, your samples looked otherwise rather nice -- well, OK, the girls jumping up and down are a problem(!).
I don't know why anyone would recommend PowerDirector. You could be working in lossless AVI with something like budget versions of Vegas (Movie Studio Platinum) or, probably better, Premiere Elements. I admit that Cyberlink and Pinnacle are easy to use, but I wouldn't recommend them. I have opened huffyuv and Lagarith videos in many editors, without problems -- but not in PowerDirector.Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:07.
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I combined a few clips, taken in 1996 with, if I am not mistaken, 3 camcorders. I compressed it in Lagarith , but kept the color as YV12
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I shall point back to this thread next time we have a discussion about whether DV is good enough for capturing VHS. Many people say "you must use lossless", and I usually reply that DV is usually more than good enough, and much much easier to work with. You have pointed out yet another reason that this is true. Most video editors on the planet can do lossless cut-and-paste editing of DV.Originally Posted by avz10
I've faced similar challenges to you - not wanting scene by scene tweaking (because it will take impossibly long), but wanting something that does something useful over all.
Reading the torture you've already been through, I don't want to post the next bit, but it's true: apart from the most basic gentle noise reduction (and deinterlacing for uploading - not needed for DVD), I've not found anything that I'd apply to all videos. If you had DNR on, your VCR already did basic gentle noise reduction, though I think that could be usefully improve on in all the clips you've posted.
What I've done on my own footage is identify "types" of footage. The biggest differences I have are 16v9 vs 4x3 and SD vs HD, but I'm guessing you don't have those.
After that, the biggest difference is footage shot outdoors (which usually looks great), footage shot indoors during the day time (which can be poor), and footage shot indoors at night (which, on my old camcorders, always looks terrible). It's possible to find de-noising and colour correction which will generally be an improvement for all of that third type of footage. You wouldn't want to apply it to the first type of footage.
After that, the biggest difference is the "look" of the various camcorders. One of mine is too contrasty but with not quite enough colour saturation (always) and is on VHS so is always noisy, another is about right for an end product but has aliasing, and the latest usually needs a little more contrast and saturation for the good final result but is otherwise pristine.
From this explanation, I guess it's obvious what I do. I have a standard fix for the "look" of each camcorder that I put all the footage from that camcorder through. I then have standard fixes for those three shooting conditions, and I try to put each scene through that depending what it is. I then look at the result, and tweak anything which really annoys, but try not to be too critical because everyone else will care far more about content than picture quality. Importantly, I do all processing with coring=off, i.e. I preserve out-of-range luma and chroma values at all stages. This makes it possible to do more useful manual correction at the very end, after all the "automatic" stuff, if I need to.
Here's the dilemma though: I never delete any raw footage, but when I edit something for viewing I use maybe 10% of what I shot at most. If I fix everything before editing, it's easier because all the things that need separate processing are very obviously separate, but it's a waste because I'm fixing things that will never be used. However, if I fix the things after the edit, then all the shots are all mixed up in terms of what needs fixing, and the whole thing needs unpicking before I can do anything useful. Sometimes while the files sit in the editors timeline I go and fix them and re-load them. Sometimes I just render the whole edit out, then use applyrange() in AVIsynth to attack separate parts of the final edit.
It sounds like you're in that third position - you have a final edit, rendered to a file, to work with. It makes it very difficult.
However, your biggest issue by far is not the original footage! I'd be quite happy to leave the original footage as-is in the latest compilation clip you posted. Yes, I know the white balance varies a lot, yes I know it's noisy, yes I know there are drop outs - yes I know sanlyn will explain how you can spend a week fixing each individual clip - but FFS you can see the baby, you can see Grandma, you can see the kids (which must now be in their 20s?), you can see the old dog (which must now be dead?) - that's what people are going to look at and love it. A gentle denoise across the whole lot is all it really needs.
BUT that weird checkboard / pin-prick / 8x8 squares pattern that's been put across the whole thing is a disaster. It ruins it. It shouldn't be there. It wasn't on the original footage. It's really objectionable, and on a typical modern TV with sharpness turned up it's going to look awful. It has got to be fixed.
It looks to me as if it might be worse on your latest compilation than on the earlier clips, so maybe something you're still doing is adding it. We've got to help you debug this, and hope it's not actually on the "master" edit files you now have. I hope it's a DV decoder fault on your system. I fear it might be on the input. Let's see...
You claim to have saved the edits in DV format. Nothing you have posted to this thread is in DV format. (The earlier files probably are, but are flagged differently from my DV files). To check, make sure you load one of these earliest-generation-you-still have files into VirtualDUB, go to the video menu, select DirectStreamCopy, cut just a few frames to keep, save the result TO A NEW FILE, and upload it here. Let's be sure what you have. (Apologies if this is what you already did. If so, I don't know why VirtualDUB sees my DV files as DV, but yours as DIB. Maybe someone can explain?)
I'm sure you and me are both hoping the fault isn't in those master files, because if it is, and it was me, I'd start again. I know you don't want to do that, and you'll probably look for a solution to that problem. It will certainly be possible to improve it.
Cheers,
David, -
I agree with all of that, except one point: two encodes plus lossy repair processing is not "as good as", and certainly not "better" than one encode.
I don't think for one moment that the O.P. is going to process individual sections of these videos separately. He will not take the time for that. He is asking for a single, simple set of filters to get dozens of damaged videos onto DVD disc within a week or so. So there is no answer to the simple, single filter set the O/.P. is requesting and I think I demonstrated my point on that issue. It would be better to edit and join as-is. Most viewers will see nothing amiss.
You're correct: that noise grid is 8x8 on the originals, not 16x16 (I was referring to the 2X blowup image). I have no idea where it came from. But I don't think the O.P. or most viewers would notice it, nor the occasional slip of fields out of sync.Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:07.
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True, it can't normally deliver better quality, though I'm still waiting for proof that it's ever visibly worse quality on the final DVD or uploadOriginally Posted by sanlyn
Not wishing to sound like a complete arse, but in this specific case, with DV he wouldn't have run out of space and wouldn't have needed to delete the original captures. Therefore, depending on where the fault crept in, DV would have been 100000x "better" if using it had allowed him to revert to the footage from before the fault crept in.
depends on the TVYou're correct: that noise grid is 8x8 on the originals, not 16x16 (I was referring to the 2X blowup image). I have no idea where it came from. But I don't think the O.P. or most viewers would notice it
EDIT: Have you looked at it on a TV? It's on one field only, which means it flickers really annoyingly!
The compilation clip is worse than the single clips. It also has lots of blocking too which isn't nearly so bad in the individual clips.
that'll make the movement stutter badly - a pretty obvious and annoying fault.nor the occasional slip of fields out of sync.
Still, if nothing else is on the cards, I'm thinking how we could fix that grid.
EDIT: good old undot (on separated fields) is a start, but not perfect. Trying harder, it's surprisingly easy to make an apparently easy problem even worse! There's adaptivemedian and Delock_QED but they're still not perfect.
Cheers,
David.Last edited by 2Bdecided; 5th Jul 2013 at 06:08.
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I suspect that many DV captures might have been decompressed to RGB AVI's, taking up more storage space.
Viewing the dot dot pattern in VDub with yadif turned on, the older man (5-1.avi) has dots on Odd fields -- but Even fields are too blurry to make the pattern noticeable. On 3-1.avi (boy on stairs), dots are in both fields. I don't see it in the other two sources.Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:07.
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Apologies for being so quiet, but we made a long weekend of this weekend, so will only return on Sunday.
If I remember correctly, the 8x8 blocks are not present on all the videos/years.
If I need to capture a few years again, it will not be the end of the world.
I will go through the last few posts and then try to answer appropriately.
Thanks in any case for the comments.
If I do need to capture again, I will at least have all the sequences. This will make my life easier. I am not sure if filtering after each cassette has been captured will help, as there are scenes from different cameras on the first original videos as well.
The second issue again will be the editing/cutting/inserting/deleting of scenes- what programme should I use then?
I can also capture a video clip again from a cassette and we can compare that with what we have now.
Thanks again!
Albie -
I don't know which NLEs handle lossless files well. I use Vegas / Movie Studio, because it handles DV and HDV OK and can smart render both. However, it can make a mess of other formats (input and output), especially the video levels - at least it could/did back in the versions that I paid for (5 and then 9). It was a matter of trial-and-error (and searching the web properly) to make it handle those properly, and even then I don't know if it was 100% lossless. It didn't have the problems you've experienced though!
Free trials are available - pick a version...
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/moviestudio/compare
Cheers,
David. -
I agree. I've only seen 1.1.avi so far but...Originally Posted by sanlyn
1) The caps are RGB. No capture device captures as RBG. Any that deliver RGB do so by converting the captured YUV to RGB. That's a waste of time and degrades quality. Capture as YUY2 or other YUV 4:2:2 chroma subsample format. PAL DV's 4:2:0 chroma subsampling is fine for PAL sources.
2) There are macroblocks in moving parts of the video. This indicates these are not direct analog video captures but they have been through some kind of digital compression before these uncompressed RGB AVI files were uploaded. Maybe MJPEG or MPEG 2.
3) The 8x8 dark pixel grid also indicate this was badly converted from some DCT compressed format. One field has dark dots, the other has corresponding light dots (though not as bad).
4) The chroma channels of the video were mishandled. At some point interlaced chroma was treated as progressive chroma. This has caused the colors of the two fields to blend together.
5) There are oversharpening halos from a horizontal sharpening filter, probably in the VHS deck.
The OP needs to go back to square one and recapture those videos.Last edited by jagabo; 5th Jul 2013 at 10:59.
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By the way, if recapturing isn't feasible you can "fix" the 8x8 dot grid without damaging the picture too badly with a sequence like:
before:Code:SeparateFields() Undot() Blur(1.0,0) Sharpen(0.7,0) Weave()
after:
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The 1-1.avi of the infant looks cleaner, but near the end there are fields where the hand moving to the right does a back-and-forth. I had to a fancy re-weave that I picked up from Doom9. The dot pattern is more prominent in two of the other AVI's (3-1 and 5-1). The one with 2 girls jumping up and down (3.avi) is so noisy, it's hard to tell.
There are problems common to all of them, and some that are unique to each. I'd suggest making a couple of short captures and posting here to check the results.Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:08.
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I have thought about the project a lot over the weekend and if I could have started a project of this magnitude once, I can just as well have a second attempt at it. This I want to do, start again. But, I will need help all the way!!
A few comments and then your input.
The history and goal again:
I have and want to capture and edit approximately 60 three hour cassettes, originating from different cameras and some have been copied a number of times, with the goal to have the whole collection of all my videos combined in chronological order.
I captured all these videos with Virtualdub, compressed with Lagarith codec. The cassettes were played on the best S-VCR I could get in South Africa at that time (The videos are VHS). It seems as if a serious problem was caused when I edited these videos in PowerDirector, and saved them in the AVI format, but the default saving by PowerDirector was as a lossy DV and not a lossless Lagarith/Huffy.
Code:Putting all the scenes in chronological order, was a nightmare.I could not do it with Virtualdub and most commercial video editors cannot open the Lagarith codec.
This statement is unfortunately not correct. I have started with the project in September last year. My goal is to leave something decent for my children and grandchildren, BUT, due to the enormous amount of video, I cannot edit any clip individually. This is especially made worse due to the variety of source videos (Again-different camcorders, copied by different VCR's to videos, using original VHS-C videos, etc).Code:I don't think for one moment that the O.P. is going to process individual sections of these videos separately. He will not take the time for that. "He is asking for a single, simple set of filters to get dozens of damaged videos onto DVD disc within a week or so".
??Probably correct, but I have decided to start again as this is such an import project for me.Code:It would be better to edit and join as-is. Most viewers will see nothing amiss.
Space remains an issue-as I have said before- I have 2 internal drives- 160 GB; 500GB and one external 2 TB. Space is really important, especially if I want/need to save the original captured videos for future purposes.Code:with DV he wouldn't have run out of space and wouldn't have needed to delete the original captures. Therefore, depending on where the fault crept in, DV would have been 100000x "better" if using it had allowed him to revert to the footage from before the fault crept in.
Code:The compilation clip is worse than the single clips. It also has lots of blocking too which isn't nearly so bad in the individual clips.
Remember, I stated that with this compilation, I compressed it with Lagarith and used UY12. Perhaps that is the reason??Code:It looks to me as if it might be worse on your latest compilation than on the earlier clips, so maybe something you're still doing is adding it.
As I plan to capture again, I still have the sequences and would not need to study all the scenes/videos at lenghth.
I am not sure if I need to filter after each cassette which I capture will help, as there are scenes from different cameras on the original videos as well. As there are a number of videos with similar content, I might only use a few minute from a three hour cassette from one cassette and paste it in another video.
Code:The second issue again will be the editing/cutting/inserting/deleting of scenes- what programme should I use then?
Code:I use Vegas / Movie Studio,
Code:You claim to have saved the edits in DV format. Nothing you have posted to this thread is in DV format. (The earlier files probably are, but are flagged differently from my DV files). To check, make sure you load one of these earliest-generation-you-still have files into VirtualDUB, go to the video menu, select DirectStreamCopy, cut just a few frames to keep, save the result TO A NEW FILE, and upload it here. Let's be sure what you have.
I would like us to plan-Code:General Complete name : C:\Users\ALBIE\Documents\Desktop\3.avi Format : AVI Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave Commercial name : DV File size : 14.5 MiB Duration : 4s 0ms Overall bit rate mode : Constant Overall bit rate : 30.4 Mbps Writing library : VirtualDub build 32842/release Video ID : 0 Format : DV Codec ID : dvsd Codec ID/Hint : Sony Duration : 4s 0ms Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps Encoded bit rate : 28.8 Mbps Width : 720 pixels Height : 576 pixels Display aspect ratio : 4:3 Frame rate mode : Constant Frame rate : 25.000 fps Standard : PAL Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Bottom Field First Compression mode : Lossy Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357 Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00 Time code source : Subcode time code Stream size : 13.7 MiB (95%) Audio ID : 1 Format : PCM Format settings, Endianness : Little Format settings, Sign : Signed Codec ID : 1 Duration : 4s 0ms Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Bit depth : 16 bits Stream size : 750 KiB (5%) Alignment : Aligned on interleaves Interleave, duration : 45 ms (1.12 video frame) Interleave, preload duration : 500 ms
- The capturing process- VD at what settings?
- Filters at what stage? I have thought about de-interlacing and the children like to watch video on various objects. So, perhaps I need to de-interlace.
- The editing phase- ?with Vegas/Movie studio- saved in what format??
- Encoding- I had good success with HCEnc.
Last edited by avz10; 7th Jul 2013 at 11:32.
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The 3.avi clip you posted above is Dv YV12 and has the 8x8 dot noise. So I assume that clip is an older one.
We should try to determine where that noise originates. I suggest making a short capture with VirtualDub to YUY2 with Lagarith compression. This does not have to be an entire tape. Copy a few minutes and look over it, then later you can cut a few seconds to post here for a check.
I admire your spirit, but let me repeat one caution. If you want many of those streaks and horizontal rips removed, plus stains and other ugly stuff, you can see that most of those disturbances extend over many successive frames. It's impossible to clean them all, and those that are repairable would take an extremely long time -- that is, many weeks, not many hours. That's a very long time. In most cases you might want to accept the fact that certain problems exist but can be tolerated. As long as you have your original clean captures, you acn always go back to them. But some of it is definitely a chore.
There are several timeline video editors you could use. I have myt own, and when I do that sort of work I almost cut and join with lossless AVI, add audio (sometimes), fades, titles,s etc. That software is from TMPGenc. I think something like the budget NLE's from Vegas and Premiere Elements would serve your purpose. Members who use those programs can advise in more detail. Keep in mind, however, that those programs are editors and joiners; they are adequate for what they do. When it comes to colorspace handling and noise reduction, they are not as flexible or as effective as Avisynth or VirtuaqlDub. As you've noticed, leave the "editing" to the "editors" and the ground-level "processing" to the "processors". That, at least, would be my general suggestion.
How much claenup you might require depends on what a short, lossless capture would reveal.Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:08.
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You are lucky enough that all of your videos are in the same format: 4x3 720x576 50i. Keep them in that format. Restore them in that format. Edit them in that format.Originally Posted by avz10
Only convert a COPY of the final master to 50p or 25p (by deinterlacing) if required for viewing on something else (YouTube, iPad, facebook, whatever).
The only exception is if part of the restoration requires conversion to progressive - in that case, 50p becomes the format. It will need re-interlacing to put onto DVD, and many NLEs won't do that properly, but AVIsynth will (the interlaced > progressive > interlaced conversion can be lossless with a little care, apart from whatever processing you intended to do).
180 hours? If you are expecting someone else to ever watch any of it, the most important thing you can do (after capturing it properly), is to create some 5 and 10 minute edits of the absolute best bits for people to take a look at.
There's a delight in seeing old family videos that lasts maybe 10 seconds if there's no sound, up to maybe 1-2 minutes if it's a two year old talking. By the time the same scene+subject has been on screen for 10 minutes I can almost guarantee that no one is interested. (unless it's a play or competition or something that's interesting in itself and worth watching)
Cheers,
David. -
I have set the VCR up again, so I will capture a clip this afternoon and post it.
No! There is a story behind it. I made videos per child, so there are heaps of triplication. Unfortunately, I cut some scenes from one child's video if it did not relate to him/her. This was a big mistake. So, basically, for 3 VHS cassettes over the same period, I will eventually only have 3 hours plus some extras, which might be perhaps 15 minutes.Code:180 hours? If you are expecting someone else to ever watch any of it
When I combined the cassettes the previous time, I ended up with less than one hour per year. -
If you have three separate copies of most footage, and if you are very lucky, and if you can synchronise those copies perfectly (on your PC by cutting frames), then you can use median filtering across the three copies to remove noise and defects that are different in each copy. If you use adaptive median/average filtering, you can knock out dropouts with median filtering, and reduce noise with average filtering.
If you are unlucky, the copies will not line up properly, and you'll get a weird blurry and/or distorted mess.
Google AVIsynth averaging multiple VHS captures.
You're heading into a complicated world here though. Depending on your sources, expectations and patience, the result could be well worth it, or not at all.
Cheers,
David. -
I have captured this short clip and the quality appears quite good.
What do you think?
I am not so sure that I will go the average filtering route, but if I can align the three "similar" videos next to each other, would it be possible to keep video 1 as the complete video and delete most of videos 2 and 3, so that I can add those scenes from 2 and 3 later to video 1; or would it be easier to do this process in Premiere elements for instance?Code:General Complete name : C:\Users\ALBIE\Documents\Desktop\4.avi Format : AVI Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave File size : 30.0 MiB Duration : 4s 840ms Overall bit rate : 51.9 Mbps Writing library : VirtualDub build 32842/release Video ID : 0 Format : Lagarith Codec ID : LAGS Duration : 4s 840ms Bit rate : 50.4 Mbps Width : 720 pixels Height : 576 pixels Display aspect ratio : 5:4 Frame rate : 25.000 fps Standard : PAL Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2 Bit depth : 8 bits Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 4.856 Stream size : 29.1 MiB (97%) Audio ID : 1 Format : PCM Format settings, Endianness : Little Format settings, Sign : Signed Codec ID : 1 Duration : 4s 840ms Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Bit depth : 16 bits Stream size : 908 KiB (3%) Alignment : Aligned on interleaves Interleave, duration : 44 ms (1.10 video frame) Interleave, preload duration : 500 ms
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That's a much better starting point than you earlier samples. The 8x8 grid of black dots is gone, there are no macroblock artifacts, no chroma blending. There's still oversharpening halos but I suspect that's in your VCR.
The levels are a little out of range (darks too dark, brights too bright) but that may be more from the oversharpening halos than the picture itself (there are hardly and darks and brights in the picture). Check a few shots with more darks and brights and adjust the capture device's video proc amp if necessary.
The top ~1/2 of the frame has a green tinge. A different VCR might help with that. It's possible to compensate in software using an overlay and alpha mask. -
The green tinge is on most of the caps. With earlier videos I was able to clean some of it with chubbyrain2, but it was not that effective because the vids had already gone thru 2 stages of RGB. I didn't try that today with YUY2 capture.
Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 11:08.
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- Again, with regards to editing, if I use Premiere elements to edit and I save the edited video, will any change in format occur e.g. color, Lagarith compression, etc?
- I suppose I can start capturing now, as the capturing by itself take quite a few hours.
- Does anyone know if one can set a time limit for capturing in VD-eg 4 hours, so that it does not continue capturing if I leave it on at night?
- Should I post more clips of various quality and if so, how many frames are needed?
This video was taken during 1989 with a brand new Panasonic VHS-C camcorder.
Quote
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