Present state of play with B&W conversion to Colour

[GeneLamp]

Present state of play with B&W conversion to Colour

So what I am asking is where are we at present with open source/ Freeware software and conversion of B&W films to colour?

Is there any affordable by the general public software also available?

I know there are some old threads on the topic but I am asking as of today 2013...

My laptop has a quad core AMD Phenom II 2.0GHZ and 3GB of memory so hardware is becoming affordable but what is the present state of the available software.

Cheers


So far I have just found this http://www.fdshows.com/colorization.htm

[jman98]

Ha ha - I made an X rated comment once many years ago in a restaurant about colorization (sorry man, but Yanks don't believe there is a "u" in "color") and how little I thought of it and my brother and best friend still to this day laugh about what I said. Memories....

Don't forget to also ask about the equally pointless mono to 5.1 sound conversion as if you're doing one pointless thing you might as well do the other.

[Cornucopia]

I have posted a number of times, at length about this subject...

Nothing's changed, or will change, anytime soon. It's not "can it be done?" it's "how well can it be done?" or "should it be done?" and especially "how much is it going to cost, in time, effort, & money?"

Freeware/opensource (in an easy-to-use, automated way)? You'll NEVER see this. EVER. I would stake my career on it.
The amount of code necessary to develop good algorithms for that sort of thing is so much, and the number of people that want to do it so little, that there will never be critical mass to make free/opensource worthwhile. Plus, do not kid yourself: it takes painstaking manual effort & artistry, even for the best or most commercial of pros, to get good quality. And in the real world, time = money and you get what you pay for, so something like this will COST you.

What about free manual work? You can do that right now with a paint overlay. Frame-by-frame. So, if it takes you a few days to do 1 frame each, a whole movie would be ~15 years to complete.

These same approaches can be applied to: Still -> Motion, B&W -> Color (or Colour), Mono -> Stereo -> Surround, 2D -> 3D.

Good luck, you are going to need it.

Scott

[smrpix]

Present state of play is that colorizing remains difficult and expensive and is increasingly irrelevant except in specialty circumstances. B&W is no longer generally seen as "inferior."

[GeneLamp]

Hi Scott

Cheers for the reply

It is not as dry cut as some have us think, The BBC in England used a system where colour was recovered from Black&White prints that had been made from colour. Not a great help but just shows that without people attempting and trying new ways would not be discovered.

Myself I suspect given time and some effort the tedious part might be turned over to computers to do. It just needs someone to work towards doing this.

And as luck would have it after searching for a while for software no sooner do I post this thread than I start finding some! (Murphy's Law)

Scroll down once you open link

http://www.fileguru.com/apps/turn_black_and_white_photos_into_color

[smrpix]

Classic spammer. Well played.

[GeneLamp]

What are you on about spammer?

If you have nothing positive or helpful to add to this thread then please stay out of it

[DB83]

Dear Gene[of the]Lamp,

If you could not find such software before you started this thread then you are indeed Colo[u]r-Blind.

Your actions do have the hallmarks of spamming. But I'll await your tutorial of how you made these softwares work.

[GeneLamp]

No I am no spammer or colour blind and if all you come here for is to mock people then please stay out of this thread.

This thread is for discussion and not so you can mock or insult people with you troll actions

[jman98]

The BBC situation was completely and utterly different from what you asked about. In those cases, the color information was preserved though not viewable in black and white copies. Modern technology + genius enabled the BBC to recover the color information from those homemade videotapes and use it to recreate the color. That is completely different from colorizing an old b&w movie, which is what you are asking about.

As smrpix points out, the general public no longer views black and white as inferior so there's little real interest in doing this any more. The major studios in Hollywood have long abandoned this, even though the current technology (not free) to do it is actually fairly good. Yes a very small number of DVD releases still do colorization, but they aren't many of those.

[DB83]

When did I call you a spammer ?. I said your actions have the hallmark of a spammer. There is a difference.

But I will 'discuss'

Software/hardware to colorize has been around for years. It is not affordable. Neither is it economic for the BBC to do this to archive material. Some time back, there was a project looking at computer alogarithms to attempt to speedup the process. Maybe the first link you posted has done some work in this direction even though their samples appear to have come from TCM. But even this £2.5k software, in the wrong hands, will yield rubbish.

[GeneLamp]

The BBC situation was completely and utterly different from what you asked about. In those cases, the color information was preserved though not viewable in black and white copies. Modern technology + genius enabled the BBC to recover the color information from those homemade videotapes and use it to recreate the color. That is completely different from colorizing an old b&w movie, which is what you are asking about.

As smrpix points out, the general public no longer views black and white as inferior so there's little real interest in doing this any more. The major studios in Hollywood have long abandoned this, even though the current technology (not free) to do it is actually fairly good. Yes a very small number of DVD releases still do colorization, but they aren't many of those.

There is a great interest in colourisation and it is only your opinion that there is not. As I said before if you have no interest in this topic and nothing positive to add why are you even posting in this thread except to troll myself and others in to arguments?

You have made it plain it is not a topic that interests you so I look forward to see no more posts from yourself in this thread.

[smrpix]

There is a great interest in colourisation

Can you point to a recent discussion board or articles? My curiosity is genuine.

[GeneLamp]

When did I call you a spammer ?. I said your actions have the hallmark of a spammer. There is a difference.

But I will 'discuss'

Software/hardware to colorize has been around for years. It is not affordable. Neither is it economic for the BBC to do this to archive material. Some time back, there was a project looking at computer alogarithms to attempt to speedup the process. Maybe the first link you posted has done some work in this direction even though their samples appear to have come from TCM. But even this £2.5k software, in the wrong hands, will yield rubbish.

Home computers have moved on significantly since 2008 when the BBC under took using that process on Dad's Army. It is now 2013 hence why I started this thread to discuss the state of play and peoples experience of doing the conversions now.

[GeneLamp]

There is a great interest in colourisation

Can you point to a recent discussion board or articles? My curiosity is genuine.

For the last time stop trolling this post to cause arguments, you stated this topic is of no interest to you so why are you still posting here.

[smrpix]

There is a great interest in colourisation

Can you point to a recent discussion board or articles? My curiosity is genuine.

For the last time stop trolling this post to cause arguments, you stated this topic is of no interest to you so why are you still posting here.

Um... you just quoted me saying the opposite.

Anyway, I think your original question was answered.

[DB83]

I'll add one thing more to this debate.

I truly hate colorization - I use the American spelling since, with resepct to our US friends, they are the only ones to have done this to any extent.

I, for one, love Black 'n White films. Some directors have even chosen to film in this medium even when colour stock was available. Colorization often has an un-natural look. I have dvds with both original and color versions and I know which one I will watch to the end.

[zoobie]

I like it. The ones I've seen are more of a tint which is perhaps what the OP is wondering.

[GeneLamp]

I'll add one thing more to this debate.

I truly hate colorization - I use the American spelling since, with resepct to our US friends, they are the only ones to have done this to any extent.

I, for one, love Black 'n White films. Some directors have even chosen to film in this medium even when colour stock was available. Colorization often has an un-natural look. I have dvds with both original and color versions and I know which one I will watch to the end.

So why are you in this thread and taking it of topic? As you say you have no interest in the topic, so please stop trolling this thread off topic.

[GeneLamp]

I like it. The ones I've seen are more of a tint which is perhaps what the OP is wondering.

I prefer the re-colour effect some are really good. If some enjoy black and white, good luck to them, but that does not remove my right to enjoy them in colour..

[DB83]

GeneGenie,

You really do need to get your eyes tested. Now you accuse me of not having interest in this precious topic of yours.

How can a discussion about the quality of colorization be OT to a topic about the present state of colorization ? In your post above, you refer to me about enjoying the film in its intended state and before that accuse me of trolling. You can not have it both ways.

For a new member you have a pretty severe attitude issue. You were asked to provide some links to the debate yet have failed to do so. All we have is your own opinion and appear not to tolerate anyone else's.

[Cornucopia]

I'll add one thing more to this debate.

I truly hate colorization - I use the American spelling since, with resepct to our US friends, they are the only ones to have done this to any extent.

I, for one, love Black 'n White films. Some directors have even chosen to film in this medium even when colour stock was available. Colorization often has an un-natural look. I have dvds with both original and color versions and I know which one I will watch to the end.

I need to correct you: The PRIME corporation, and first one to make money at it commercially, was Colorization, Inc., based in Toronto, Canada. I know this because I met CEO Wilson Markle and even interviewed for a job at their headquarters in '86 (didn't get it unfortunately, being an American without "unique" skills at that time). And of course, our Canadian friends spell it "colour" just like you do (though "colorization" is/was a trademarked term, using that spelling).

If you read my past posts on this subject, you'll find that I too love B&W films (have probably seen thousands!). I also hate BADLY-DONE Colorization of them. But I LOVE well-done Colorization. They do exist, and are wonderful to watch. "Un-natural" colorization = badly done.
Problems still exist with getting JohnQPublic to watch B&W films. In fact, not counting a few perennial favorites, I would bet that if you polled the man on the street, you would perhaps only find 1 in 10 that had even SEEN a B&W movie (and I'm not counting children here).
This is of course a big problem with societal perception, not a problem with the quality of the original art. But, I don't expect it to change much in the near future. Isn't it better for them to be exposed to the STORY, in whatever way they can accept (in this case, colorized) than never be exposed at all?
I also take issue with the old line about the Color versions eclipsing (and destroying) the B&W version. All C versions use a RESTORED B&W version as their source, and most RECENT DVD or BD products will include BOTH the B&W and the C version in the set, so nothing is being lost - the purist can still watch in B&W when it suits their fancy. You seem to even have these discs of your own, so I don't understand why you're even complaining about it. In a sense, the colorization effort has SUBSIDIZED the B&W restoration effort which preceded it.
I do however, agree that good colorization is few and far between. But I could have predicted that - the corporations just want to make a fast buck! (Oh wait! - I DID predict that, and the stereo->surround, and the 2D->3D....). Your choice whether to consider the bad apples to be spoiling the bunch or not. There is something to be said for that opinion.

@OP, the "state of play" is no better than it was a few years ago. Computer algorithms have gotten faster & better, but people's expectations of quality have grown as well (with resulting further intolerance of lower-quality conversion), and since the lustre of novelty has pretty well fall from Colorization (as it will be soon doing with 2D->3D), the technique has entered into it's expected niche market.

Scott

[GeneLamp]

I'll add one thing more to this debate.

I truly hate colorization - I use the American spelling since, with resepct to our US friends, they are the only ones to have done this to any extent.

I, for one, love Black 'n White films. Some directors have even chosen to film in this medium even when colour stock was available. Colorization often has an un-natural look. I have dvds with both original and color versions and I know which one I will watch to the end.

I need to correct you: The PRIME corporation, and first one to make money at it commercially, was Colorization, Inc., based in Toronto, Canada. I know this because I met CEO Wilson Markle and even interviewed for a job at their headquarters in '86 (didn't get it unfortunately, being an American without "unique" skills at that time). And of course, our Canadian friends spell it "colour" just like you do (though "colorization" is/was a trademarked term, using that spelling).

If you read my past posts on this subject, you'll find that I too love B&W films (have probably seen thousands!). I also hate BADLY-DONE Colorization of them. But I LOVE well-done Colorization. They do exist, and are wonderful to watch. "Un-natural" colorization = badly done.
Problems still exist with getting JohnQPublic to watch B&W films. In fact, not counting a few perennial favorites, I would bet that if you polled the man on the street, you would perhaps only find 1 in 10 that had even SEEN a B&W movie (and I'm not counting children here).
This is of course a big problem with societal perception, not a problem with the quality of the original art. But, I don't expect it to change much in the near future. Isn't it better for them to be exposed to the STORY, in whatever way they can accept (in this case, colorized) than never be exposed at all?
I also take issue with the old line about the Color versions eclipsing (and destroying) the B&W version. All C versions use a RESTORED B&W version as their source, and most RECENT DVD or BD products will include BOTH the B&W and the C version in the set, so nothing is being lost - the purist can still watch in B&W when it suits their fancy. You seem to even have these discs of your own, so I don't understand why you're even complaining about it. In a sense, the colorization effort has SUBSIDIZED the B&W restoration effort which preceded it.
I do however, agree that good colorization is few and far between. But I could have predicted that - the corporations just want to make a fast buck! (Oh wait! - I DID predict that, and the stereo->surround, and the 2D->3D....). Your choice whether to consider the bad apples to be spoiling the bunch or not. There is something to be said for that opinion.

@OP, the "state of play" is no better than it was a few years ago. Computer algorithms have gotten faster & better, but people's expectations of quality have grown as well (with resulting further intolerance of lower-quality conversion), and since the lustre of novelty has pretty well fall from Colorization (as it will be soon doing with 2D->3D), the technique has entered into it's expected niche market.

Scott

Hi you seem well versed in the subject, myself I am still at the beginning phase. I recently read a wiki on the subject which informed me a little about a couple of the different methods used to colour the film. So far it seems the main stumbling point is the cost and most of that is in the time needed and spent by humans in the process. I can see a future were computers could do a lot of the work but before that can happen the computers ability to see and understand the different parts of a film frame will need vast improvement.

And who knows what luck might bring up, the ability to get the colour back from black and white recordings done from colour recording, which the BBC used. Came about just by someone asking why is that happening? (He saw little dots of colour in the black & white recording )

You are right on the button with the remark about how often the black and white recording are saved, improved and redone so as to make the best version to colour, and without this happening these old black and white films will just fade into dust or very little use.

[DB83]

@Scott

Thank you for your words in this topic. You ask why I complain about colorization and the simple reason is because, since we do live in a free world, I can. I can also recall many posts elsewhere when Turner colorized many of his titles.

Yes it is true that I have dvds with both original and color versions on them. But I did not buy them for that reason. I bought them for a restored version of the original. Surely, if a film is worth restoring it should be done anyway and not as a prelude to adding colour.

Inspired by this topic. I have just revisited one of these dvds which contains one of my all-time favourite films - 'Way Out West'. Indeed, the colorization on this was done by Colorization Inc. In a fresh view, and maybe because my viewing equipment is better now, they have done a reasonable job on this and certainly better compared with some others I have seen. If you can point me in the direction of some others I would be most obliged.

I do not know about yourself or the OP but I was brought up in an age when tv was in B&W. If you wanted colour then you had to watch on the big screen but even then the saturday morning matinees showed B&W films and serials. I remember our first colour tv and to watch that was a novelty - Now you could see those National Geographic docs just as nature intended

The current generation mostly know nothing about B&W. Show the majority a colorized version and they will believe that is how it always was. Will colorization actually tempt them to watch these ? I hardly think so.

I had better shut up now or, again, be accused of trolling this topic.

[jman98]

I had better shut up now or, again, be accused of trolling this topic.

The OP can, in the immortal words of Woody Allen, "be fruitful and multiply - although not in those words".
(This was from Woody's days doing stand up.)

I love how yet again we see this...
New guy joins and asks about something of limited interest which is near and dear to his heart.
He gets told basically "Nobody wants to do this".
This gets followed with vehement disagreement as in his mind he is but the tip of the iceberg of a vast majority of humanity who are deeply interested in the subject.
Then he tells those who express dissenting viewpoints to go away if they can't tell him what he wants to hear.

Wish I could get paid every time this scenario happened.

I'll simply add to Scott's comments that those old enough to have lived through the horrible bastardization that early "colourization" was do not remember it fondly. It sucked. Yes, I have seen modern attempts at it that look great, but my personal preference is that those old works should be left in the format they were intended to be viewed/heard in. If it was originally 4:3 b&w and mono then leave it like that. I don't ever complain if say someone wants to sell me a DVD/BD with the movie in the original format and another version that has been "colourized", remixed, etc. If I can get the original then I don't complain if the seller thinks others may like "improvements".

I do think Scott is wrong in his "1 in 10" guess. I'd say that he probably could not find an American over the age of 40 who had not seen a true b&w film on TV at least as a child. Those numbers will drop with each decade. It may actually be true that most under 20 have never seen one.

[netmask56]

Lots of music video's the kids make have BW sequences ("looks cool" quote) so I don't think it's dead or not known by under 25's. Colourisation is meh! for me but I do admit I viewed a colourised version of the original King Kong that look not bad except in dark scenes when everything seemed a muddy green.

[GeneLamp]

The colouring of black and white is a valid topic and why people who prefer black and white think their interest means no body else can have a different view and interest says it all.

the discussion for only black and white belongs in a totally different thread as this thread is about Present state of play with B&W conversion to Colour.

So why some insist in trying to hijack and Troll this thread says it all.

If you cannot be on topic then stay off the thread.............

[DB83]

Memo: I really must congratulate Baldrick on his choice of the new forum moderator.

Well if this is SO important to you why do you not give some real input in to the debate - which has already been answered - and provide real examples of what you consider to be good colorization. That should satisfy your quite narrow-minded approach to valid debate.

PS as has been said already, the Dad's Army does not count.

[GeneLamp]

You are here as usual with only the intent to hijack the thread and to troll for arguments, you even congratulate the form Modhttps://forum.videohelp.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[DB83]

You are impossible.

You state that you like colorization. I stated that I hate it. Let me clarify why I hate it. Simply by experiencing very poor early attempts. But, unlike you and your jeuvinile attempt at policing this topic, I am open minded and if I see good colorization I am prepared to state so. That is what I did earlier in this thread.

I asked you to provide, in your own opinion, some examples of good colorization. That can easily qualify, in most people's minds as 'Present state of play with B&W conversion to Colour'. If you refuse to do so then fine. But this topic has served its course. It did so within the first few replies. At least with proper debate and not your continious and now boring 'troll' accusations it could continue.