Another Ghosting Issue/Frame Blending Dillema

[hizzy7]

I'm kinda lost here. Is the PAL sample in post #54 after you've processed it from the NTSC DVD in post #1?

The PAL sample is post NTSC. I have been processing it as PAL because its was 25fps and I was afraid to mess it up! I am going to try to be more brave now and think NTSC!

AssumeFPS(23.972) has me terrified on account of the audio. Should I be afraid? lol!

[hizzy7]

Double post

[poisondeathray]

It's not 23.972 - this will gradually go out of sync , and actually will cause problems for MPEG2 DVD encoding

The exact number is 24000/1001 , or 23.976024.... (is an approximation)

AssumeFPS(24000,1001)

If you choose to go that route you have to slow the audio by that exact fraction (24000/1001) / 25

If you choose the other method (720x480, 25fps, pulldown flags), the audio is the same , doesn't need to be altered

[hizzy7]

It's not 23.972 - this will gradually go out of sync , and actually will cause problems for MPEG2 DVD encoding

The exact number is 24000/1001 , or 23.976024.... (is an approximation)

AssumeFPS(24000,1001)

If you choose to go that route you have to slow the audio by that exact fraction (24000/1001) / 25

If you choose the other method (720x480, 25fps, pulldown flags), the audio is the same , doesn't need to be altered

How would I fix the audio? Am I inviting a world of hurt upon myself? :P

[poisondeathray]

How would I fix the audio? Am I inviting a world of hurt upon myself? :P

If I was going that route I would use eac3to (there are other methods like besweet)

There are presets for 25 => 23.976 in most audio programs

In eac3to :

eac3to input.ac3 output.ac3 -slowdown

So that will stretch out the audio (slow it down, longer duration ) by that exact ratio


One benefit of choosing the other method, is audio doesn't have to be altered (no re-encoding or quality loss - you use the exact same audio stream, just reauthored). Your audio is pretty shabby to begin with, and re-encoding it will make it worse

[hizzy7]

What you have after QTGMC/sRestore is the original 25FPS frame rate in an NTSC formatted frame. The result also has noise and disturbances that can't be fixed in VirtualDub or Premiere. Many of those repairs, including the hot "flashing" thru the video, require Avisynth. It's up to you whether you want to do any further cleaning.

Would DeFlicker help with the hot flashing?

Thanks!

[jagabo]

I'm kinda lost here. Is the PAL sample in post #54 after you've processed it from the NTSC DVD in post #1?

The PAL sample is post NTSC.

So what you really want is a resizing script for the NTSC source?

[sanlyn]

If you choose the other method (720x480, 25fps, pulldown flags), the audio is the same , doesn't need to be altered

25FPS = too fast IMO. The sword fight scenes move like Looney Tunes. It's obviously been sped up.

The software mentioned will adjust the audio rate.

Would DeFlicker help with the hot flashing?

No. I fixed almost all of it in Avisynth with RemoveSpots(), then used LSFMod to resharpen the results. See the earlier scripts posted. Deflicker won't fix the sharp luma pumping in the sword fight scenes, either. I don't know where it's coming from, but it's not in your original post.

I adjusted audio after running QTGMC and srestore. Firt, mI converted the original .ac3 that was saved by DGindex, and made it an uncompressed .wav (PDM) file. Then this script, and saved only the audio in VirtualDub with "File" -> "Save wav..." :

v=AviSource("path to video\filtered.avi")
a=WAVSource("path to audio\VTS_01_2.wav")
av=AudioDub(v,a)
av
AssumeFPS("ntsc_film",sync_audio=true)
return last

But other software will do it just as well.

[hizzy7]

Ok, since people think this is a good step I am starting with this:

MPEG2Source("path to d2v\VTS_01_2.d2v")
AssumeTFF().QTGMC(preset="medium")
sRestore()
AssumeFPS(23.976)

I think its a good step because I am restoring the OG frame rate. Plus, since the frame size is for NTSC, I am doing a good thing. Am I undestanding this right?

Thanks!

[manono]

Is there an encoder that will let me make an NTSC dvd with 25fps?

No. They will allow you to make an MPEG-2 at 25FPS, but it will not be NTSC-DVD compliant because of the frame rate; and it would not be PAL-DVD compliant with an NTSC frame size. It would just be a 25FPS MPEG2.

If you're asking if there's an encoder that will allow you to encode for 25fps with NTSC resolution, the answer is 'yes'. HCEnc and CCE (and others) allow it. As I mentioned before, you may have to disable any DVD templates or presets that will probably be the defaults. Maybe even your current encoder will allow that, but I don't really know. Then it won't be NTSC DVD compliant until after you run it through DGPulldown set for 25->29.97fps, which I also mentioned way back on the first page:

Right now, its at 25 fps progressive.

You can keep it at 25fps, encode for 25fps (perhaps requiring disabling any DVD template in your encoder) and applying DGPulldown for 25->29.97fps when done to make it NTSC DVD compliant. That way the audio can be used as-is.

Me, if film, I always slow it to 23.976fps for NTSC DVD and slow the audio as well.

Am I understanding this right?

Yes.

[hizzy7]

Do I need to add pulldown flags to it if it is 23.97?

[manono]

Do I need to add pulldown flags to it if it is 23.97?

Yes. All NTSC DVDs must output interlaced 29.97fps. If you use a template in your encoder the encoder will add it automatically. If you don't use templates (I don't) and get a 23.976fps MPV or M2V out of the encoder, run it through DGPulldown set up for the default and standard 23.976->29.97fps (3:2 Pulldown).

[hizzy7]

Should I try HCEnc as the encoder?

THANK YOU! You guys are geniuses!

[manono]

Should I try HCEnc as the encoder?

If you like. It's certainly a good enough encoder for you or anyone to use.

[poisondeathray]

If you choose the other method (720x480, 25fps, pulldown flags), the audio is the same , doesn't need to be altered

25FPS = too fast IMO. The sword fight scenes move like Looney Tunes. It's obviously been sped up.

I agree. Normally the difference between 24 vs. 25 is slight - many people can't even pick out the difference. But in that era, slight undercranking during shooting kung fu action scenes was a common practice , and done on purpose - like 20-23 fps , so the effective difference from a PAL conversion is even more noticable . (Even more "modern" martial arts films from Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, etc.. have undercranked scenes)

[sanlyn]

Yes, poisondeathray, that cranking up is what I should refer to as the cause of the effect. Every Japanese action or monster-on-the-loose flick I've seen does odd things with motion ("odd" to we Westerners, anyway). I think that even Seven Samurai has some accelerated fight scenes, especially the long sequences in the rain. It doesn't make much of a pump to make it look overdone.

Hollywood goes for it, too. Every Western made in the U.S. has juiced-up chase scenes.

[sanlyn]

Here is another clip. I know its a bit bright, but I don't think its terrible (hopefully). Now, to get the AR right. I think its still an issue.

http://files.videohelp.com/u/183506/NUN%20NUN.demuxed.m2v

Attached is 1.6666666:1 in a 16x9 frame, 23.976 FPS mkv (to save a little posting bandwidth). Rather blurry -- I don't have the original VOB, but worked with the squished PAL 25FPS version posted in #77 on 29-June-2013 (https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/356933-Another-Ghosting-Issue-Frame-Blending-Dillem...=1#post2250880)/ Had to resize back down and then out from SD PAL. So, any defects or noise, etc., in the PAL post are exaggerrated here. But it looks as if the aspect ratio is correct, given all the resizing, border fixes, etc. If working with the original VOB, these would be cleaner, less noise, sharper, and encoded as 720x480 NTSC, 23.976 with 3:2 pulldown, at 16:9 display aspect ratio. The revised frame size was 856x480 with borders to fill a 16x9 TV. Wish I had the source VOB, it would be cleaner. Bad flicker is obvious in the fight scene. I didn't see it in the original "MPG" post.

1.66:1 displays this way on HDTV for films made at this ratio for 20 years all over the world. 1.66:1 was the original VistaVision and European standard (Hi_Vision in Japan), which was expanded as a wider screen later. On a 4:3 TV it would be letterboxed.

Attachment 1 is near the start of the PAL clip. Attachment 2 is the fight scene (at the original film speed, it doesn't play like a Road Runner cartoon).

I might still be crazy, but....doesn't it look as if this originally was a wider vista and has been cropped on each side ?????

[hizzy7]

Hi Sanlyn

Thank you for your samples! The difference in the aspect ratio is startling! If I understand, these are the specs I should be shooting for:

720x480 NTSC, 23.976 with 3:2 pulldown, at 16:9 display aspect ratio and I would start with this:

MPEG2Source("path to d2v\VTS_01_2.d2v")
AssumeTFF().QTGMC(preset="medium")
sRestore()
AssumeFPS(23.976)


I think this would be ok, too. I am correct?

AssumeFPS(24000,1001)

For getting the 1.6666666:1 in a 16x9 frame, what script should I use? Can it be included with the script above?

Thanks again!

[hizzy7]

And to ask, what do you think about spline64resize? Is that a good filter? Is it better than spline32resize?

Thanks!

[sanlyn]

And to ask, what do you think about spline64resize? Is that a good filter? Is it better than spline32resize?

Take a look at the resize options in Avisynth's documentation or at http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Spline64Resize . There isn't much difference between spline36 and spline64, but '64' will work OK. There's also a link at the bottom of that Avisynth page to a comparison chart.

You shouldn't resize before denoising. Because some of the denoisers I used are in YUV but most of the color work and NeatVideo was in RGB, I resized in RGB. Resizing earlier will give you a big image to handle. And some denoisers require an image with mod-8 dimensions. So start by keeping all the left-hand and bottom pixels as-is and intact, as in the original VOB. For the time being you have to maintain the image aspect ratio that's on the DVD, even if it's incorrect.

I'm working out some numbers for the coding. Will return shortly.

[sanlyn]

How to get this 16:9 video with an inner 1:666:1 image and a single resize: This will work only in RGB, and only with the 720x480 dimensions and borders as they existed on the source DVD.

After denoising and color are completed with the original 720x480 movie, resize as follows:

Spline64Resize(672x488)

Note the height of "488" is there for removing head switching noise without affecting the final aspect ratio. On the left-hand side of the 672x488 image you'll see 10 pixels of black border + edge noise. On the right-hand border are 2 pixels of dot crawl. Along the bottom there are 7 pixels of head-switching noise. At the bottom we can crop a number like 7 in non-interlaced RGB, but it's best to maintain a mod-8 height for the resizer, so take 1 more pixel off the height by removing it from the top.

Thus you remove 10 pixels from the left, 1 from the top, 2 from the right, and 7 from the bottom. Then add borders to get the final image for 720x480 encoding. Height and width will both be mod-8:

Crop(10,1,-2,-7).AddBorders(30,0,30,0)

At 16X9 the displayed image without borders will be about 784x480 (on a 1080 screen that comes to about 1764x1080). Just a bit short of real 1.6666 (it's actually 1.63333:1), but remember that some edge noise was removed. In VirtualDub to see the AVI in 16:9, right-click on the image in VirtualDub and select "16:9" from the popup menu.

[hizzy7]

Hi Again,

First off, I would like to thank everyone for their help! I have a good NTSC version of the movie now, and I have learned so much in the process! I have a question, just for my own curiosity - the video's frame size was 704x480, if I am not mistaken. To make it 720x576 for PAL, could I have added borders in this manner: addborders(8,48,8,48). If I understand, the picture would have been unaffected, but it would be 720x576 for PAL.

Thanks again! You guys are brilliant!

[jagabo]

the video's frame size was 704x480, if I am not mistaken. To make it 720x576 for PAL, could I have added borders in this manner: addborders(8,48,8,48).

No. You would add borders to the left and right to bring it up to 720 (though it's not necessary because 704 is fine too), then stretch the frame vertically to 576 lines tall.

[hizzy7]

Hi Jagabo!

So adding borders stretches the frame? I figured that the center image would be the same, just framed by borders around it.

Thanks!

[jagabo]

So adding borders stretches the frame?

No, you resize the existing 480 lines to 576 lines.

I figured that the center image would be the same, just framed by borders around it.

No. NTSC uses the full 720x480 frame to hold the 16:9 (or 4:3) picture. PAL uses the whole 720x576 frame. The player adjust the picture to the correct aspect ratio during playback.

[hizzy7]

No, you resize the existing 480 lines to 576 lines.

Hi Jagabo,

So that I understand, are you saying that I should use one of the various Avisynth re-sizers if I want to make a PAL frame of 720x576 frame?

And, not that I would do it, but would addborders(8,48,8,48) create a PAL compliant frame size? I am just curious.

Thanks!

[jagabo]

So that I understand, are you saying that I should use one of the various Avisynth re-sizers if I want to make a PAL frame of 720x576 frame?

Yes. From a 720x480 frame: BicubicResize(720,576). Or from a 704x480 frame: BicubicResize(704,576).

[hizzy7]

Hi,

By using addborders(8,48,8,48), I have created what looks like a letterbox around a 704x480 frame. That's what it looks like to me, but I have no clue really :P By adding borders all around, it also looks a bit squashed. What happens to the video when you add borders in this manner? What does it do to the picture?

Thank you again, Jedis of Videohelp!

[jagabo]

addborders(8,48,8,48) What happens to the video when you add borders in this manner? What does it do to the picture?

You get a PAL video with letterbox bars and the picture will have the wrong aspect ratio -- approximately 2.13:1, not 16:9.

[hizzy7]

addborders(8,48,8,48) What happens to the video when you add borders in this manner? What does it do to the picture?

You get a PAL video with letterbox bars and the picture will have the wrong aspect ratio -- approximately 2.13:1, not 16:9.

Thanks jagabo!

Would you be able to explain to me why adding bars changes the aspect ratio? I am just trying to understand. To me, adding bars shouldn't affect the picture in the middle. Why does the adding of bars throw everything off so?

You are amazing! Did youy learn all of this through trial and error?

Best

h