Problem with VDub and LD comb filters/NR

[SegaSonic91]

Hi all,
I have been capturing a lot of LDs over the past 3 months with Vdub and there is one nagging problem. I have been using both a CLD-D99 and CLD-R7G for capturing but if I turn on the noise reduction and 3D comb filter when capturing, I have nasty artifacts. Is it not possible to capture in VDub with filters in the video stream or is there some setting that I have missed? Even with the lowest settings, there are problems in the captures. There is checker pattern artifacts that mainly appear in interlaced frames and once IVTC'd, the artifacts appear as "ghosts" of the interlaced frame. This can appear before and after an interlaced frame. There is also constant ghosting from moving objects, there is a coloured halo that follows movement of characters. Even with sharp set to low (I don't actually use this setting), it made a sort of edge enhancement like ghost follow from moving characters.

It is quite frustrating not being able to use the filters because they improve the picture a great deal and then require less filtering with AviSynth. When it is a low quality LD that requires heavy handed filtering, it can leave an annoying banding effect. The only live action discs I have captured or will capture, are my Bon Jovi LDs. One in particular; "Tokyo Road: Live in Japan '85" desperately needs the LD filtering on when capturing because it is REALLY noisy for chroma and video noise. I have made a capture of it 3 times now and have not been satisfied with the resulting filtered product. Having to use heavy filtering makes the faces of the band look all splodgy and sponge like. The other LDs are much higher quality and will not need as much filtering.

I should note that this happens with 2 capture devices. I thought it was the device (Hauppauge Live TV USB2) and then bought an ATI Diamond 750 USB but it still happens. There is problems using VDubs own noise reduction during capture which is why I am wondering if there is a setting to fix this.

[Brad]

I have been using both a CLD-D99 and CLD-R7G for capturing but if I turn on the noise reduction and 3D comb filter when capturing

...

I should note that this happens with 2 capture devices. I thought it was the device (Hauppauge Live TV USB2) and then bought an ATI Diamond 750 USB but it still happens. There is problems using VDubs own noise reduction during capture which is why I am wondering if there is a setting to fix this.

Okay, I'm so confused. Where are these filters that you are enabling?

The players?
The capture devices?
VirtualDub?

As noted recently in another thread, there are several reasons that using VirtualDub filters while capturing isn't recommended. Meanwhile, neither of those capture devices contains a 3D comb filter so you must mean the LD players themselves. Their circuits are late-90s tech that have been surpassed by modern technology.

Personally I would use the composite out into an ATI 750 PCIe (which does have a 3D comb), hit the chroma with AviSynth noise reduction, and see what sort of filtering I want to do to the luma after that.

[SegaSonic91]

Thanks for the reply. The only filtering I am referring to using is the actual LD hardware, I only capture RAW from the LD player and then filter. I know the tech is old and all, but the initial picture coming from the player is highly improved when using it which is why I am wondering if there is a way to keep the LD filtering on whilst capturing. The filter also removes dot crawl completely and I have not been as satisfied with dot crawl removal filters. I just cannot imagine people using an HLD-X0/X9 for restoration projects would not be using the players' filtering hardware when capturing, so surely there is a way?

I am quite annoyed about the fact that only the PCIe vesion of the 750HD wonder has the 3D comb filter. I only have a laptop at the moment which is why I bought the USB version but I never saw a description of the USB version without the 3D comb filter being mentioned. The filter is the reason I bought it hoping it would cure this problem. If I DID have the PCIe version though, I imagine the same problems would occur. I frankly did not see anything change in the picture using the 2D setting of the USB stick and turned it all off. Whilst the overall picture quality of the 750HD stick is far superior to the Hauppauge, the 750 seems to have a negative effect on the chroma noise. I thought it was something to do with the filter but after turning all the filtering settings on the stick on in VDub, it is still there. It makes scenes with red ungulate with big pinkish stripes (http://imageshack.us/a/img801/6985/vlcsnap2013060903h05m45.png) that no amount of filtering with AviSynth would get rid of. What method would you recommend for chroma noise reduction? Nothing I have used has fully removed the noise.

[Brad]

The only filtering I am referring to using is the actual LD hardware, I only capture RAW from the LD player and then filter ... using the players' filtering hardware when capturing ...

... after turning all the filtering settings on the stick on ...

I hope you can understand my confusion!

The filter also removes dot crawl completely and I have not been as satisfied with dot crawl removal filters. I just cannot imagine people using an HLD-X0/X9 for restoration projects would not be using the players' filtering hardware when capturing, so surely there is a way?

With a perfect comb filter there would be no dot crawl (if only one existed). Out of curiosity, how is this LD player dot crawl filter labelled in the menus?

I never saw a description of the USB version without the 3D comb filter being mentioned.

Let's flip that around: did you ever see a description of the USB version with mention of a 3D comb filter? I bought it under the same impression and upon later searching simply found that where anyone had said 3D, it was in reference to the PCIe card (even if they didn't immediately specify). For the very old posts, people had naturally assumed the implentation was the same in a different form factor, so they didn't bother to say "this only applies to the card."

I frankly did not see anything change in the picture using the 2D setting of the USB stick and turned it all off.

Not sure what you mean here. There are bunch of settings ATI offers up but many are only applicable to other hardware that uses the same driver architecture. If you hit "Apply" you should see that only 2D can actually be set for this device.

Whilst the overall picture quality of the 750HD stick is far superior to the Hauppauge

Odd. I have two sticks that use the same chip as the Hauppauge and I give a slight edge to them over the 750.

I'm not sure what I should be looking at in the screenshot. Please attach a video sample on the forum directly instead (up to 100MB is allowed).

[SegaSonic91]

I hope you can understand my confusion!

Ahh yeah, sorry about that.

With a perfect comb filter there would be no dot crawl (if only one existed). Out of curiosity, how is this LD player dot crawl filter labelled in the menus?

Both models have 4 settings with a level of 1-10; Y,C,3D comb and Sharp. The Y and C control chroma and luma NR and the 3D settings removes dot crawl and rainbowing.

Let's flip that around: did you ever see a description of the USB version with mention of a 3D comb filter? I bought it under the same impression and upon later searching simply found that where anyone had said 3D, it was in reference to the PCIe card (even if they didn't immediately specify). For the very old posts, people had naturally assumed the implentation was the same in a different form factor, so they didn't bother to say "this only applies to the card."

Ya know, I *thought* I did see it. I intentionally looked at as many descriptions as I could to make sure there was no difference between the 2. Eh, I guess I was wrong. I will buy the PCI-e version when I get around to making a PC

Not sure what you mean here. There are bunch of settings ATI offers up but many are only applicable to other hardware that uses the same driver architecture. If you hit "Apply" you should see that only 2D can actually be set for this device.

The laptop I was using does have a Radeon graphics card and I did see the options but it did not seem to affect the picture at all.

Odd. I have two sticks that use the same chip as the Hauppauge and I give a slight edge to them over the 750.

The Hauppauge seemed to have a blurrier picture the looked like it was covered in edge enhancement.

I'm not sure what I should be looking at in the screenshot. Please attach a video sample on the forum directly instead (up to 100MB is allowed).

In the picture, the hair should be red but instead is red with pink stripes. The stripes "move" up and down through the colour. I will try and get a sample up.

[jagabo]

It's possible to filter in VirtualDub while capturing but it's risky. Use Video -> Filter Chain -> Filter List -> Add. That said...

You should turn off all filters while capturing (the possible exception would be the 750's comb filter). Don't use noise filters, sharpness filters, etc. Hardware filters are inferior to the best software filters. Capture with a YUV 4:2:2 colorspace like YUY2 and a lossless codec like HuffYUV, Lagarith, or UT Video Codec. After capturing go back and filter. This way you're not limited to real-time filters. If your video is interlaced you need to handle it as interlaced video. Many filters don't work with interlaced video. That's why you are getting stripes in the colored areas, ghosting, etc.

Post a short samples showing your problems.

[Brad]

The laptop I was using does have a Radeon graphics card and I did see the options but it did not seem to affect the picture at all.

If you mean the the options in Catalyst, those are for filtering on-the-fly during playback of a video file.

The Hauppauge seemed to have a blurrier picture the looked like it was covered in edge enhancement.

Set the Sharpness control of both to 0!

With that said, my testing was to see how accurately they would capture a test pattern from a DVD. I captured a very bad VHS source to both yesterday, and the ATI 750 USB seems to have some non-defeatable chroma NR that may or may not make it better for your purposes. I had thought that I managed to disable it at one point by setting "Value" to 0, but I didn't actually take a capture at that time and I haven't been able to repeat what I saw.

[Brad]

I take it back. I got a similarly icky-looking capture using the ATI 750 USB today with no settings altered. It's just a thrift store VCR that's malfunctioning and giving inconsistent playback. The first tip-off should've been the whining sound that it made as soon as I plugged it in.