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  1. Member
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    The last 3 steps:-

    ...CHANGE FPS...
    1280
    720
    25
    0.11
    2534.4
    ...CHANGE FACTOR...
    1280
    720
    25
    0.16
    3686.4
    ...CHANGE FPS...
    1280
    720
    23.976
    0.16
    3535.405

    Bitrate - shown correctly
    File-size - shown correctly
    Total filesize - shown correctly
    Default button - responds correctly

    I think we have a winner.

    I think you should leave that log screen as it can be of assistance.
    Thank you. Yes, I will release two version, test and normal version.

    Download last version in first message...
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  2. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    So the moral(s) of this story can be summed up as:
    1. No library is perfect, but you must be able to anticipate the shortcomings of the library and work around it for things to work right.
    2. Listen to your beta testers. They are "the customer" and "the custormer is always right".
    3. ALWAYS test on multiple computer/OS types, languages, regions. Otherwise, you should qualify your software as only known to be working with so-and-so setup.
    4. Don't take shortcuts.

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    So the moral(s) of this story can be summed up as:
    1. No library is perfect, but you must be able to anticipate the shortcomings of the library and work around it for things to work right.
    2. Listen to your beta testers. They are "the customer" and "the custormer is always right".
    3. ALWAYS test on multiple computer/OS types, languages, regions. Otherwise, you should qualify your software as only known to be working with so-and-so setup.
    4. Don't take shortcuts.

    Scott
    Thank you. I don't like C# or .NET Framework. I used, because I want speed develop. Normally I use native C++. It allow full control over program. I love this.
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  4. Member DB83's Avatar
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    From the Wiki article on the 'decimal mark'

    "In countries with a decimal comma, the decimal point is also common as the "international" notation because of the influence of devices, such as electronic calculators, which use the decimal point. Most computer operating systems allow selection of the decimal mark and programs that have been carefully internationalized will follow this, but some programs ignore it and a few are even broken by it."

    Now where do I send my bill of account ?
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  5. small question: Does this tool compensate for container overhead? (depending on the container, the container overhead can be quite large)

    If it does compensate for container overhead, for which containers? (mkv?mp4?avi?m2ts?...)

    -> okay, checked it out no selection of container type, audio/video type => no container overhead compensation
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  6. Member
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    From the Wiki article on the 'decimal mark'

    "In countries with a decimal comma, the decimal point is also common as the "international" notation because of the influence of devices, such as electronic calculators, which use the decimal point. Most computer operating systems allow selection of the decimal mark and programs that have been carefully internationalized will follow this, but some programs ignore it and a few are even broken by it."

    Now where do I send my bill of account ?
    Yes, but C++ cannot do that and Library programmers must think that, but MS not tolerate that. Best library must have best tolerate abilities and most C++ programmers cannot think that. If user enter invalid decimal format, than program throw an error, not to produce invalid value... But NET Framework produce invalid value and this is a fatal error...

    small question: Does this tool compensate for container overhead? (depending on the container, the container overhead can be quite large)

    If it does compensate for container overhead, for which containers? (mkv?mp4?avi?m2ts?...)

    -> okay, checked it out no selection of container type, audio/video type => no container overhead compensation

    No. This results is approximate. Results never calculate %100 true by any program, because results cannot %100 estimate.
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  7. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Well, I can see where this is going...

    @Hikmet, this may sound a little strident, but, frankly, the fault is yours. YOU as programmer have to forsee these kinds of obstacles and code around them.
    And Selur is right in asking how comprehensive your app is in regards to # & type of streams & container type. In this business, and with users from this forum, the variability of this question is going to come up lots of times! Without accounting for that, and without being very accurate at your estimates - ALL THE TIME - your app has little utility.

    Me, I probably won't use it, because I have a much more accurate EXCEL spreadsheet that I created myself that DOES take all those things into account. But it's ugly and arcane, and I don't intend to inflict it upon Joe Blow consumer either.

    Of course, if you want, you could "step up to the plate" and take these things into account on your next iteration and make it a wonderful, maybe invaluable, tool. You decide.

    Scott
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  8. Member DB83's Avatar
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    @Scott

    Why ever not ?. As an ex accountant I view spreadsheets like having s$x
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  9. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    That made my day!
    Down the road, after I move to Austin this summer, I may pretty it up and give out copies...

    Scott
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  10. No. This results is approximate. Results never calculate %100 true by any program, because results cannot %100 estimate.
    You are aware that in example for m2ts depending on the content the container overhead can reach more than 200% of the content?
    (yes, result will be 3times of the size of the raw streams, easy to reproduce simply mux a long clip with low bit rates into an m2ts container and see the overhead grow,...)
    Okay, m2ts is an extrem case, but even for avi/mkv/mp4 the overhead difference between containers isn't as small as you might think, see: http://www.alexander-noe.com/video/amg/en_overhead_comparison.html for some small examples.

    -> from my point of view, one only uses a bit rate calculator if one aims for a precise (+/- 1MB) file size and if your file ends up to large that might be a problem

    btw. there is some decent bit rate calculator code in C# over in the MeGui source code:
    -> http://sourceforge.net/p/megui/code/HEAD/tree/megui/trunk/packages/tools/calculator/
    a few years ago there even was a standalone version of this code, but it got lost during updates (not maintained any more), I guess people would be happy to have an alternative.

    Since I wrote my own bit rate calculator when I started developing Hybrid and did discuss some of it with the megui developers I'm always interested how people estimate the container overhead of mkv and m2ts and how to calculate the overhead of containers I don't support in Hybrid atm.
    So if you decide to do something in that direction please share your findings.

    Cu Selur
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    Originally Posted by Selur View Post
    No. This results is approximate. Results never calculate %100 true by any program, because results cannot %100 estimate.
    You are aware that in example for m2ts depending on the content the container overhead can reach more than 200% of the content?
    (yes, result will be 3times of the size of the raw streams, easy to reproduce simply mux a long clip with low bit rates into an m2ts container and see the overhead grow,...)
    Okay, m2ts is an extrem case, but even for avi/mkv/mp4 the overhead difference between containers isn't as small as you might think, see: http://www.alexander-noe.com/video/amg/en_overhead_comparison.html for some small examples.

    -> from my point of view, one only uses a bit rate calculator if one aims for a precise (+/- 1MB) file size and if your file ends up to large that might be a problem

    btw. there is some decent bit rate calculator code in C# over in the MeGui source code:
    -> http://sourceforge.net/p/megui/code/HEAD/tree/megui/trunk/packages/tools/calculator/
    a few years ago there even was a standalone version of this code, but it got lost during updates (not maintained any more), I guess people would be happy to have an alternative.

    Since I wrote my own bit rate calculator when I started developing Hybrid and did discuss some of it with the megui developers I'm always interested how people estimate the container overhead of mkv and m2ts and how to calculate the overhead of containers I don't support in Hybrid atm.
    So if you decide to do something in that direction please share your findings.

    Cu Selur

    My experience, calculated file size always bigger than final result, because encoders eliminate most unnecessary data and file size reduce. I use this tool my video encode works and always get good result and never give invalid result...
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  12. Just out of curiosity: What containers and audio/video formats do you use?

    > My experience, calculated file size always bigger than final result,
    about how much (in MiB ?)
    Last edited by Selur; 21st May 2013 at 02:28.
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    Originally Posted by Selur View Post
    Just out of curiosity: What containers and audio/video formats do you use?
    DivX, Xvid, H264, Theora (for my 2D Game Engine), MPEG, MPEG-2 with AC3, MP3, AAC audio. Especially 2-pass encoding operations, final result always small then calculated file size.

    Because, bitrate calculators calculate video size for same situations, but encode a frame, encoders eliminate most data; example same color areas, same pattern area or still images, not changed actions etc. and compress this datas. But calculaters always assume all frames are same, and all frames compressed same bitrate...

    > My experience, calculated file size always bigger than final result,
    about how much (in MiB ?)
    Example; 3 hours 20 minutes film, 2-pass H264 encode and no audio; calculated size "2.81 GB", final result "2.77 GB". Difference is 40 MB... This differences change by video type...
    Last edited by Hikmet; 21st May 2013 at 02:44.
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  14. ...final result always small then calculated file size ...
    +
    Because, bitrate calculators calculate video size for same situations, but encode a frame, encoders eliminate most data; example same color areas, same pattern area or still images, not changed actions etc. and compress this datas. But calculaters always assume all frames are same, and all frames compressed same bitrate...
    Yes, a bit rate calculator assumes that the average bit rate is the same, which is a valid assumption since this is the goal of 2pass encoding. So from my point of view, in you case either the encoder doesn't do a proper job during 2pass encoding in hitting the average bit rate or your calculator just makes enough mistakes to compensate for the container overhead.
    Either way, doesn't really matter as long as it's doing it's job for you, it's fine.
    Personally I won't use your calculator, since the main goal for me when 2pass encoding and a bit rate calculator to hit a specific file size, if the produced file size then doesn't come really close to the size I specified something is off for me.


    Cu Selur
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    Originally Posted by Selur View Post
    ...final result always small then calculated file size ...
    +
    Because, bitrate calculators calculate video size for same situations, but encode a frame, encoders eliminate most data; example same color areas, same pattern area or still images, not changed actions etc. and compress this datas. But calculaters always assume all frames are same, and all frames compressed same bitrate...
    Yes, a bit rate calculator assumes that the average bit rate is the same, which is a valid assumption since this is the goal of 2pass encoding. So from my point of view, in you case either the encoder doesn't do a proper job during 2pass encoding in hitting the average bit rate or your calculator just makes enough mistakes to compensate for the container overhead.
    Either way, doesn't really matter as long as it's doing it's job for you, it's fine.
    Personally I won't use your calculator, since the main goal for me when 2pass encoding and a bit rate calculator to hit a specific file size, if the produced file size then doesn't come really close to the size I specified something is off for me.


    Cu Selur
    I always want video size small. 1-pass encode increase file size and decrease image quality; so must set bitrate value higher and higher and result size higher and higher.

    Bluray m2ts format always bigger file size and this file size is unnecessary. And bluray disk and recorders most expensive. I never use this format. Only usable for commercial purpose...
    Last edited by Hikmet; 21st May 2013 at 04:17.
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  16. Would be great if you add to audio section LPCM and DTS bitrates for those who don't remember every time exact numbers
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    Version 1.2 Beta released.
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  18. MeGUI already features a detailed bitrate calculator. I'll be laughing at the people who find your tool via Google.
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  19. @Hikmet: Is there somthing more to your 'quality factor' other than it being the bits per pixel value?
    If it is just the bit s per pixel value, what is the point of the comments, like 'Theora - Optimum' ?
    + Is there any empirical data you based you decision to define 'optimum' and 'high' on?
    If one locks the total file size and selects a quality factor which violates it the audio bit rate overflows,...

    enabling 'No Audio' should also disable the 'Xnd Track Bitrate' ComboBoxes, also even 'No Audio' is ticked, BitRater still calculates an audio size when I change the 'quality factor'.
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  20. Are there any bitrate calculators that tell you the projected size of the file in bytes as well? Or would there be a separate program for that?
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    Originally Posted by Mephesto View Post
    MeGUI already features a detailed bitrate calculator. I'll be laughing at the people who find your tool via Google.
    Thanks and if you don't like this program, then don't use.

    @Hikmet: Is there somthing more to your 'quality factor' other than it being the bits per pixel value?
    Maybe in next version. I will investigate this issue.

    Is there any empirical data you based you decision to define 'optimum' and 'high' on?
    This based my experience. Example, as my obervations, "0.110" is enough for no grain/noise videos. But, this based on encoder configurations.

    If one locks the total file size and selects a quality factor which violates it the audio bit rate overflows,...
    Please send screenshot.

    enabling 'No Audio' should also disable the 'Xnd Track Bitrate' ComboBoxes, also even 'No Audio' is ticked, BitRater still calculates an audio size when I change the 'quality factor'.
    Yes, I see. I will fix that bug.

    Thank you...
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    Originally Posted by noemi7 View Post
    Would be great if you add to audio section LPCM and DTS bitrates for those who don't remember every time exact numbers
    LPCM uncompressed, but some media limit bitrate. I didn't try lpcm on DVD or Bluray. If you want limits, then maybe I will add. But I will add DTS next time. Thanks...
    Last edited by Hikmet; 2nd Jun 2013 at 09:23.
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  23. attached a screenshot of the overflow
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	overflow.png
Views:	163
Size:	35.7 KB
ID:	18165  

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    Thanks selur.

    Bugs fixed and released "Beta 3" release...
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  25. When I enable 'No Audio' and 'Lock FS' and change the video bitrate manually the audio still get's bitrate.
    1st screenshot: 'No audio' and 'Lock FS' and audio bit rate = 0
    2nd screenshot: video bit rate changed to 1000
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	initial.png
Views:	150
Size:	41.1 KB
ID:	18178  

    Click image for larger version

Name:	changed.png
Views:	154
Size:	36.4 KB
ID:	18179  

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    Originally Posted by Selur View Post
    When I enable 'No Audio' and 'Lock FS' and change the video bitrate manually the audio still get's bitrate.
    1st screenshot: 'No audio' and 'Lock FS' and audio bit rate = 0
    2nd screenshot: video bit rate changed to 1000
    Thanks Selur.

    Bug fixed and released "Beta 4" release.
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  27. First a few small questions:
    What should the video format selection do? (Is it the input or the output target format?)
    Why does the video format ComboBox not start with the default entry, which seems to be 'HD 23.976 fps (720p)'? (bug?)

    Bugs:
    • Video format ComboBox does not start with the default entry (which seems to be 'HD 23.976 fps (720p)').
    • 'Video format', 'CGI (mostly)', 'Dark Scenes / Sill Images', 'Noisy Images / Trees / Bushes' all change 'Video->File Size' even when 'Video->Lock FS' is enabled!
      Example:
      1. Start BitRater
      2. set Length to 1h
      3. enable 'Audio->no Audio'
      4. set 'Video->File size' to 100MB (result is a 233 kbps bit rate)
      5. 'Lock FS' under Video
      6. Change Video format to 'VCD (MPEG-1 PAL'

      -> 'Bitrate' changed to 28; 'Video->File size' (and 'Overall Video Size (Video + Audio)') changed to 12.02.
    • enabling 'Overall Video Size (Video + Audio)->Lock FS' and changing the Video->Fps value does not adjust the 'Bitrate'-info, it does however adjust the 'Quality Factor'; seems like your calculation function has a bug
    Cu Selur
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    Originally Posted by Selur View Post
    First a few small questions:
    What should the video format selection do? (Is it the input or the output target format?)
    Why does the video format ComboBox not start with the default entry, which seems to be 'HD 23.976 fps (720p)'? (bug?)

    Bugs:
    • Video format ComboBox does not start with the default entry (which seems to be 'HD 23.976 fps (720p)').
    • 'Video format', 'CGI (mostly)', 'Dark Scenes / Sill Images', 'Noisy Images / Trees / Bushes' all change 'Video->File Size' even when 'Video->Lock FS' is enabled!
      Example:
      1. Start BitRater
      2. set Length to 1h
      3. enable 'Audio->no Audio'
      4. set 'Video->File size' to 100MB (result is a 233 kbps bit rate)
      5. 'Lock FS' under Video
      6. Change Video format to 'VCD (MPEG-1 PAL'

      -> 'Bitrate' changed to 28; 'Video->File size' (and 'Overall Video Size (Video + Audio)') changed to 12.02.
    • enabling 'Overall Video Size (Video + Audio)->Lock FS' and changing the Video->Fps value does not adjust the 'Bitrate'-info, it does however adjust the 'Quality Factor'; seems like your calculation function has a bug
    Cu Selur
    Thanks again.

    This bugs and some other bugs fixed. "Beta 5" version released.
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  29. Video->Lock FS disables the whole Video section, shouldn't one be able to:
    - change the Frame rate which should then change Bitrate and Quality Factor ?
    - change the Width&Height which should then change the Quality Factor ?
    - change the File size indication type Byte,...MB, GB.. ?

    Is it intended that:
    - one can't enable 'Audio->No Audio' and 'Overall Video Size (Video + Audio)-Lock FS' ?
    - one can't enable 'Video->Lock FS' and 'Overall Video Size (Video + Audio)-Lock FS' ?
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    Video->Lock FS disables the whole Video section, shouldn't one be able to:
    - change the Frame rate which should then change Bitrate and Quality Factor ?
    - change the Width&Height which should then change the Quality Factor ?
    - change the File size indication type Byte,...MB, GB.. ?
    Yes, be able to. I will look these.


    Is it intended that:
    - one can't enable 'Audio->No Audio' and 'Overall Video Size (Video + Audio)-Lock FS' ?
    - one can't enable 'Video->Lock FS' and 'Overall Video Size (Video + Audio)-Lock FS' ?
    - If "No Audio", then "Video Size = Overall Size". If "No Audio" and "Lock Overall Video Size" lock work together, this be nonsense.

    - If "Audio bitrate" changed, then this changed "Overall Size". If "Video Size Lock" and "Overall Size Lock" work together, then this be nonsense. "Video Size Lock"" and "Overall Size Lock", then which part change when "Audio bitrate" change?
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