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  1. Member
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    Hello guys.
    I need help with technical video issues because searching the internet I could not be helped properly or be sure with confidence.
    I deliver my works on dvd (PAL EUROPE), but I would like sometimes upload any of these clips work to youtube, vimeo.
    One case requires interlaced video, while the other progressive. It is more efficient of shooting progressive and convert it to interlaced, as many say. But watching the result of the conversion from interlaced to progressive to dvd, I realise that it does not have the same smoothness as an already interlaced video.
    We work with camera Panasonic AG-HVX200E and I dared to shoot for the first time with 25p and 50i (576). The properties of clips see both interlaced (lower fields). When I import them to Adobe Premiere, the suggested sequence is with lower fields. At metadata again I see lower fields. How can it be explained; The only difference I could find between the two clips through their properties, was that at the 25p indicated pulldown 2:2.
    1080p properties refers to the progressive, but the pulldown 2:2 too.
    What's going on?


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  2. You need to shoot 50p and convert (properly) to 25i to get the same smoothness as shooting 25i.

    25i (marketing has changed the name to 50i to sound better but it's still 25 frames per second) contains two half picture per frame, called fields, intended to be veiwed separately and sequentially, ie, 50 fields per second (each field with half resolution), for 50 different motion increments per second. If you shoot 25p and encode as 25i you will only have 25 motion increments per second. So you need to shoot 50p then convert to 25i by taking one field from each frame.
    Last edited by jagabo; 9th May 2013 at 09:37.
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  3. Originally Posted by Yiota View Post
    We work with camera Panasonic AG-HVX200E and I dared to shoot for the first time with 25p and 50i (576). The properties of clips see both interlaced (lower fields). When I import them to Adobe Premiere, the suggested sequence is with lower fields. At metadata again I see lower fields. How can it be explained; The only difference I could find between the two clips through their properties, was that at the 25p indicated pulldown 2:2.
    1080p properties refers to the progressive, but the pulldown 2:2 too.
    What's going on?

    It can shoot 25p content, but it's only "stored" as 50i with 2:2 pulldown, not native progressive stream (it's not 25pN). So yes, the content is 25p (pulldown is removed in premiere) when you shoot in that mode.



    It is more efficient of shooting progressive and convert it to interlaced, as many say. But watching the result of the conversion from interlaced to progressive to dvd, I realise that it does not have the same smoothness as an already interlaced video.
    What jagabo says is important; You can't shoot 1080p25 only if you want interlaced PAL DVD - you only have 1/2 the motion samples . You need a different camera that can shoot 1080p50
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  4. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    You can look at this in terms of should the glass be half full? or half empty? No?

    If you start with a full glass you can always pour out half, but how can you increase half to full? One way they do it in the ice cream industry is whip air into the product. Like at McDougal's.

    But you can taste the lack of spatial depth, although the container appears full, it's actually half spec.
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  5. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    You need a different camera that can shoot 1080p50
    For YouTube, Vimeo and DVD, the 1080i50 and 720p50 available on that camera are both fine. 1080p would be slightly better for full static resolution on YouTube or Vimeo, but given the bitrates they use the difference isn't visible once anything moves.

    I would edit in the camera output format (1080i50 or 720p50) and then use AVIsynth to convert the edit master for each version. Some NLEs make a horrible job of deinterlacing 1080i50 or re-interlacing 720p50.

    Cheers,
    David.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You need to shoot 50p and convert (properly) to 25i to get the same smoothness as shooting 25i.
    25i (marketing has changed the name to 50i to sound better but it's still 25 frames per second) contains two half picture per frame, called fields, intended to be veiwed separately and sequentially, ie, 50 fields per second (each field with half resolution), for 50 different motion increments per second. If you shoot 25p and encode as 25i you will only have 25 motion increments per second. So you need to shoot 50p then convert to 25i by taking one field from each frame.

    I don't think my camera has that option, 50p. Only 25p and 50i. And I know the ways of a "properly" convert to 25i, that I 'm not ready to do them Only changing the export settings or putting footage to an interlaced sequence (Another serious problem ) There is no reason here in my town in greece to shot over 576i. I just want to have something better for my clips on the internet and that's why I 'm "searching" for progressive options.
    You where clear on your answer and I understood them much better. Thank you so much!
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    It can shoot 25p content, but it's only "stored" as 50i with 2:2 pulldown, not native progressive stream (it's not 25pN). So yes, the content is 25p (pulldown is removed in premiere) when you shoot in that mode.
    What jagabo says is important; You can't shoot 1080p25 only if you want interlaced PAL DVD - you only have 1/2 the motion samples . You need a different camera that can shoot 1080p50
    My camera has an only 25pN at 720. So it must be pN??
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    Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    You can look at this in terms of should the glass be half full? or half empty? No?
    If you start with a full glass you can always pour out half, but how can you increase half to full? One way they do it in the ice cream industry is whip air into the product. Like at McDougal's.
    But you can taste the lack of spatial depth, although the container appears full, it's actually half spec.
    I understand that I must shot progressive even the delivery is interlaced. 25p or 50i?
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  9. If you want smooth motion shoot 25i. If you want better resolution shoot 25p. If you want both shoot 50p.
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  10. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    You mention there's "no reason" to shoot 50p in your area, hahaha. I get that. But anyway, you might enjoy this http://www.spirton.com/convert-videos-to-60fps/.

    Someone here turned me on to this a while back, and it really works good.
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  11. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    There is no reason here in my town in greece to shot over 576i...
    Unless your town happens to be a cesspool, there are plenty of us foreigners who've never been to Greece that would think otherwise!

    Also, unless you've somehow gotten a very unique lemon, there is NO WAY you cannot shoot 50p on an HVX200! So if you are going for quality, why aren't you shooting EVERYTHING at 720p50 (or better), is what I want to know?

    Scott
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  12. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Yiota View Post
    I understand that I must shot progressive even the delivery is interlaced.
    You are not reading the replies. 1080i50 is already a good enough source for DVD and YouTube. So is 720p50.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    If you want smooth motion shoot 25i. If you want better resolution shoot 25p. If you want both shoot 50p.
    Both? With 50p... Hmmm... I checked again the resolution's settings and I saw 50p over 720. So I have to sacrifice more time to get a dvd disc result. I think it will be ok if the result seems good. I 'll try it. I thought I could find 50p on 576...anyway. Thanks a lot!!!
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    Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    YSomeone here turned me on to this a while back, and it really works good.
    Yeah, I know about avisynth, thank you!
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    So if you are going for quality, why aren't you shooting EVERYTHING at 720p50 (or better), is what I want to know?
    Because I saw flicker at the result. But this was on 25p, so I will try 720p. Thanks Scott!!!
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    Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
    You are not reading the replies. 1080i50 is already a good enough source for DVD and YouTube. So is 720p50.
    Isn't it interlaced? For youtube?
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  17. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Yiota View Post
    Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
    You are not reading the replies. 1080i50 is already a good enough source for DVD and YouTube.
    Isn't it interlaced? For youtube?
    You deinterlace. Good-enough deinterlacing of 1080i for YouTube is trivial. Excellent (almost indistinguishable from native 1080p) deinterlacing is possible, but slow+complex.

    ...but 720p50 is more than good enough too.

    You may demand full 1080p for YouTube, but it sounded like you didn't expect your audience to care, or have the bandwidth to view it.

    Cheers,
    David.
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  18. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    If you start with "p", it doesn't need ANY deinterlacing (as it's not interlaced). That's why I suggested 720p50, because you can directly give it to Youtube for best quality, plus you can interlace it while downsizing for great quality interlaced DVDs.

    Note that there are few cameras that FULLY support 1080p50 (or p60 in those areas). Many claim to support it, but don't have the optics or bitrate capacity to actually take full advantage of it. Heck, even the HVX200 doesn't support it.

    Scott
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  19. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    I agree that 1280x720p50 is preferable to 1440x1080i50. Don't know about 1920x1080i50.

    While few cameras fully reach the capabilities of their pixel format (to do that, you need to over sample - whereas many consumer cameras effectively sub-sample because of their bayer filters), the consumer 1920x1080p50 I've seen is genuinely sharper than 1280x720p50. It's far more subtle than most people would assume though.

    Cheers,
    David.
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  20. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Which consumer cams? Because I haven't seen that.

    Scott
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  21. Mountains of gear vaporeon800's Avatar
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    Image
    [Attachment 17892 - Click to enlarge]
    Image
    [Attachment 17893 - Click to enlarge]


    The video is here if you want to see it. Obviously the predicted frames are severely degraded.
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  22. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Which consumer cams? Because I haven't seen that.
    I guess I was just impressed with the 1080p footage from Panasonic's cameras. I haven't seen any 720p50 consumer camcorders for a long time, but I wasn't impressed back when I did. Pretty useless anecdotal evidence!

    Cheers,
    David.
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