Premiere - subpixel, font - output

[Weef]

I've choosen a relative thin font for a part of the credits.
It was the only font where I could say, that it fits the context perfectly.
I have choosen a relative small outline of only 4pixels with a light blue which makes it easier to read against the changing background and far easier to spot.
In the preview of course it looks fine but in the lossless export I notice the color temperature has changed... so I feel nothing of the light blue outline which gave it a colder feeling and now it looks relatively uninspired.
Is there a way to make Premiere render the font more strongly?

I thank for every help and comment on this subject.

[poisondeathray]

In the preview of course it looks fine but in the lossless export I notice the color temperature has changed...

How did it change ? maybe some screenshots would help


What format and colorspace did you use for "lossless export"

How are you viewing the lossless export ? What software?

Does it make a difference if you reimport the export back into premiere ? What does it look like ?

[Weef]

Currently I'm using plain uncompressed UYVY 422 8bit.
Only beacause I now have enough disk space for once ^^"
the left one is still the vector in Premiere and the left one after export
It's just natural tht it gets a little blurry but the color...

[poisondeathray]

The preview within premiere is full color RGB, unsubsampled.

Your "lossless" export isn't lossless, it's subsampled 4:2:2. On thin color borders, the color is supposed to change, that's normal and expected because you have 1/2 the color resolution . It's only going to look worse when you deliver in a final format 4:2:0 for DVD or blu-ray (I'm guessing you're going to DVD

Your only option is to use full RGB (that won't help you if you deliver in 4:2:0), or modify the text design

[Weef]

I guess there is not much I can do...tht's the way it's meant to go.
But can't I somehow force a more rigid render of the font?

Only other choice would be do change the font size

[poisondeathray]

I guess there is not much I can do...tht's the way it's meant to go.
But can't I somehow force a more rigid render of the font?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "rigid render of the font" ?

Export it in lossless RGB and will look exactly like the preview in premiere

All your problems can be attributed to chroma subsampling, and use of thin fonts

This is one of the reasons why thin fonts are not recommended for DVD, and especially interlaced DVD (interlaced chroma is even worse than progressive)

Only other choice would be do change the font size

That's what I would do, and/or redesign it in another way

[Weef]

It will go down the way of 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 nevertheless, I'm just a little grumpy now that I dared to use once a thin font it will turn out this way. Guess changing the font size is the only good solution here :/

Not a big problem but just wanted to hear if anybody had an idea to get tht thin font look better without changing it's size

[jagabo]

You might be able to improve the situation by aligning the text. With 4:2:2 chroma having the text fall on even boundaries will help. For example with 8 consecutive pixels, for blue pixels on a red background:

RRRBBBBR (R=Red, B=Blue)

will be averaged in pairs to reduce the chroma resolution:

RR RB BB BR

giving

R P B P (P=Purple).

But if aligned on even boundaries:

RRBBBBRR

you will get

RR BB BB RR

or

R B B R

thus maintaining sharp transitions between red and blue.

Unfortunately, text usually has random alignments for different characters so changing the location may fix some characters but make others worse.

[budwzr]

I see interlace lines in both images, no wait, only on the left one. You put a gaussian blur? So that's why there's some artifacts on the right? And why do the images "wrap"?

That blur changes the overall contrast probably.

If you want the text sharp, you should add it separately as a composite layer.

[Weef]

HMMM, that's weird. The one on the left is just the preview window in Premiere. The right one is the export.
I didn't apply any blur.

[budwzr]

HMMM, that's weird. The one on the left is just the preview window in Premiere. The right one is the export.
I didn't apply any blur.

So you didn't deinterlace? Before render? I don't use Premiere, but shouldn't the preview be deinterlaced? You might have a bad source then.

Something's wrong with your text overlay too. It's fuzzy. No way vector text is gonna be that fuzzy without a filter.

I thought the background was a fractal noise image, but no, it came off a video I guess. Are you doing a "redo" or remake? You can easily just redo that whole thing. The coloring is no good anyway, it's too ugly, too many earth tones..

[Weef]

It's just a personal project I've been wanting to make for years, so it doesn't end up on a DVD.
But I just checked and the lines only appear during a blend between two scenes in the rest of the motions I don't see it. It's part of the intro.
Omg, and where did I then read tht DVD is progressive already o.O
The text layers have nothing more than a blend in and out...no other filters applied.
I'm actually redoing it. Intro with credits and the end credits.
Plus translation as softsub.

[budwzr]

OK, well don't be afraid to add some zing.

[Weef]

It actually is based on a novel of the 19th century, so I don't know if that would be fitting ^^"
But what about the mentioned fuzzyness?

[budwzr]

Check your preview and render settings.

That looks like a full moon in the back, and a blurry edge-softened treeline in the middle, and then the text on top. Sooooo.....we know how to recreate it, right?

Google-it-up, We're gonna "borrow" some real art, and steal the essence and massage it into our own "art". Like how Toyota copies Lexus.

[budwzr]

Here's an idea.

[budwzr]

Here's some insight.

[Weef]

I'm going to consider it.

[poisondeathray]

Something's wrong with your text overlay too. It's fuzzy. No way vector text is gonna be that fuzzy without a filter.

Premiere's Titler is know for "soft text", it applies aggressive antialiasing compared to the same thing something like photoshop, after effects or even other NLE's like Vegas

This is well known and has been complained about in the Adobe (and various other) forums for many years



@weef - if you plan to stick with thin fonts and strokes/fills then you might get slightly better results doing the text in another program ; but the chroma subsampling is still going to degrade your results, there is no way around that (but you can try different chroma subsampling algorithms e.g. in avisynth or vapoursynth, and may get slightly better results)

[Weef]

How high would you set the chances of success with that attempt (other subsampling algorithm)?

[poisondeathray]

How high would you set the chances of success with that attempt (other subsampling algorithm)?

Not much better. Maybe marginally better if you combine making text in another program , with some other algorithm .

If you start using something like point (nearest neighbor), the pixel borders will be sharper, but edges will be less smooth ("blocky" color edges)



The main problem is chroma subsampling (and it's only going to get worse when you go to 4:2:0), and use of thin fonts

[Weef]

I just did a little test render after changing the font size by 1.5 and 2pts.
That's a result I can rather still accept, now I can see every little tail of the font.
Still a difference but far better than before.
right = export, left = Premiere

[budwzr]

Yah, Vegas Pro has similar issues. They (SCS) even revamped it and it still sucked. Finally NewBlue saw the niche and jumped in. And charging $200 too, unless you got it free in V11.