DVD final quality

[vhsman]

Hi all I am a newbi to audio/video. I have a strange problem after I burn the captured mpeg 2 on the dvd 5/dvd9/dvd folder on hard drive. I use nero 11 for dvd authoring. I use Pinnacle software/hardware capture. Captured mpeg 2 is flawless/noise free. So, Pinnacle is capturing the vhs and Nero burns the DVD folder. The DVD plays fine on my playstation 3 player, but shows artifacts and noise on the hdtv screen. Computer playback of the same dvd also shows similar artifacts/noise. Is it possible that Nero is the culprit? Would I get better results using Ulead/Corel for example? Or is something else?

[manono]

I use nero 11 for dvd authoring.

Only for authoring? Or is it also reencoding your MPG file?

[sanlyn]

Captured mpeg 2 is flawless/noise free.

I doubt it. VHS captured to MPEG2 has the same problems as all VHS-to-DVD captures: tape noise, chroma noise, invalid luma and chroma levels, ringing, dot crawl, rainbows, dropouts, rips, ringing, and whatnot, which are interpreted and encoded as artifacts by digital encoders. Every change, edit, cut, re-encode, etc., compounds problems and entails more data loss. If you captured from VHS directly to lossy MPEG, your problems started there.

[vhsman]

I am still puzzled since the captured mpeg 2 looks already better on my computer. It looks that I loose quality once I import the mpeg into the nero and outputting to the dvd video/folder. Encoding at a higher bit rate won't help. More worse than good. I found that the sweet spot for vhs is around 7500 -8000 bits. So do you suggest to capture in dv avi and use the software that came with the Pinnacle to burn the dvd? I won't have anything to loose but some space on my hard drive. I have captured in dv avi before but when transcoded to mpeg 2 I don't see any benefit. The resulting mpeg 2 is the same as if captured on the fly. Avi or not, once in mpeg 2 the quality is lost to some degree, but still good mpeg without artifacts and noise. And even more noisy once I put it on the disc. Every step in the process it looses quality. I might as well play the captured mpeg 2 off the hard drive directly since the mpeg 2 this way is much cleaner. Perhaps have a slim line computer connected to my hdtv. Less headache. Having said this I will continue my research and let you know of my findings.

[vhsman]

I import the mpeg 2 into the nero 11 where I create the menu and buttons. I guess am reencoding the mpeg 2. Is this bad?

[sanlyn]

Yes. The first encode (capture) loses quality from the original. Subsequent encodes lose more. Video encoding (MPEG, DivX, x264, etc.) is not lossless like ZIP or WinRAR. The quality loss with each encode is worse with lower bitrates, improves with higher bitrates. If the first encode has only 80% of the original source (I'm using round numbers as example, the actual numbers vary), each processing round such as cut/edit/filter, etc., re-encodes the original and loses another 20%, then another, then another.

Quality loss involves fewer and fewer data bits that describe the image on playback. Ultimately lossy encoding results in reduced definition, motion noise, mosquito noise, color and object distortion, and so forth. Any defects in the original capture are amplified.

If you want to edit, make changes, filter, etc., you should do so with lossless formats and with editors that donb't re-encode an entire video when you make changes. We don't know what changes you made or how many stages you processed before your final burn, so we can't say with any detail. However, the more you learn about video the more you'll see defects in the original capture. And you already see the final effects of processing lossy media.

[vhsman]

Thanks. I guess this explains why the original mpeg 2 capture is cleanest. I wished I could preserve it throughout editing. Perhaps the best possible outcome for dvd playback would be to capture uncompressed avi. Import uncompressed avi via virtual dub and feed it into nero?

[hech54]

Forget NERO.

[sanlyn]

IMO neither Nero nor Pinnacle are your best choice for encoders; there are better ones, lower cost, some are free.

You don't have to capture lossless to uncompressed AVI. During capture you can use huffyuv or Lagarith lossless compression for smaller files. They are fast compressors for real-time capture.

We still don't know what kind of "processing" you do after capture. What you work with depends on what you're doing post-capture.

[theewizard]

what editing?
there are lossless editors that do not re-encode the mpeg file
video redo will allow you to cut scenes with out coding
or join segments ,If the have the same coding , frame size, and frame rate

i then author with avstodvd , and burn with image burn

[sanlyn]

Those will work, but the O.P. hasn't mentioned other tasks being performed on the captures -- if any.

[vhsman]

No other tasks done on the capture (except adding icons, menu for the dvd). All done in Nero, but turns out that nero is weak. i use external procamp. I don't clean up video with software. Whatever is outputed by the pinnacle dazzle is good enough for me. Now, i have followed the instructions on the forum to install the huffyuv but unsuccessful. The command prompt won't work.

This is my settup : Windows 7 64bit, 16GB ram, 1 T HDD
AG 1980 composite---proamp---usb dazzle capture

[vhsman]

AvstoDVD works but adds noise to the final dvd with the default settings. Noise even worst when credits are displayed on the image (i.e cast names). Am I doing something wrong?

[manono]

I import the mpeg 2 into the nero 11 where I create the menu and buttons. I guess am reencoding the mpeg 2.

You don't know? Compare the bitrates or size after authoring with it before. One way to do that is to open it in DGIndex, the MPEG followed by a DVD Vob file. You'll see pretty quickly there's a difference.

Am I doing something wrong?

You've figured out the answer by now, haven't you? Don't use Nero for anything at all.

Perhaps the best possible outcome for dvd playback would be to capture uncompressed avi.

If you're happy with the MPEG as captured, and if it's DVD compliant, and if you're not editing, the best thing is just to author it to DVD. Your complaint is that the quality deteriorates between the time it's captured and the time the DVD is finalized.

AvstoDVD works but adds noise to the final dvd with the default settings.

Then you reencoded using it also. If it's DVD compliant you can have it just author a DVD without reencoding.

Am I doing something wrong?

Do you really have to ask?

[vhsman]

I think the clarity of letters in the immage is a good indicator of overall dvd quality. I think I have a codec/software issue(s). So far the original mpeg 2 capture still the cleanest. Also transcoding dv avi to mpeg 2 is equally clean. But when I process the mpeg 2 into a dvd folder for burning purposes I end up with a cruddy dvd. This beats me.

[sanlyn]

So far the original mpeg 2 capture still the cleanest. Also transcoding dv avi to mpeg 2 is equally clean.

Ahem...I'd beg to differ on that point. Going from one lossy encode (DV) to another (MPEG) wouldn't necessarily be "equally clean". Much depends on the two encoders and settings. Given a small chunk of the the original capture and a similar chunk of the new encode, the difference would be obvious to some but invisible to others.

At this point the discussion is based on guesswork. It's kinda iffy to advise without a sample of the original. Samples can be posted here. Just ask if you need to know how.

[manono]

This beats me.

Geez, okay, you want to author it without reencoding and in the process find out if it's DVD compliant or not? Get both DGIndex and Muxman. Both are free.

Open the MPEG in DGIndex and then go File->Save Project and Demux Video. The result will be 3 files. One is the video, an M2V. Another will be the audio, AC3 or WAV or whatever kind of audio you captured. The third will be a D2V project file you can delete.

Open Muxman, click on the video button and load the M2V. If it doesn't, it's not compliant in some way. Click on the audio button and load the audio. If it refuses to, it's not compliant in some way. Give it a destination folder and hit 'Start'. If it completes, you have a DVD ready to play and/or burn to disc using ImgBurn. If it aborts and doesn't complete it's not compliant and the Muxman log should explain why, if the error message doesn't. The Muxman log is found in the root of the 'C' drive.

If you got a DVD out of it, play it and it should look exactly as does the MPEG you captured. Then, if you want, you can go into a more fully featured authoring program and create menus and add in chapter points. Forget about ever using Nero again.

[vhsman]

I agree with manono to capture to uncompressed avi since I plan to add dvd menu, icons and buttons. It is just a gigantic file to deal with. I am going to try DGIndex.
I used media player classic properties to look up bit rates before/after and the overall bit rate dropped by 1000-2000 bits. Leaving me with aprox. overall bit rate of 6000 video. Also playstation 3 displays a variable bit rate of 5000-6200. I did not expect this. This is significant. Given the fact that the original mpeg capture had 8500 bits. Furthermore media player classic reports the mpeg 2 as lossy, interlaced with min/max bit rates. So much information. I am going to take a snap shot of the video properties and upload it here.

[manono]

I agree with manono to capture to uncompressed avi since I plan to add dvd menu, icons and buttons.

I don't remember recommending lossless capture. sanlyn did, I think. I didn't for two reasons; you seem pleased with the quality of your MPEG, and capping lossless then requires reencoding and you haven't gotten a handle on this whole process yet (in spite of your on-line name).

And you don't want to cap uncompressed anyway, but lossless. There's a difference. If you decide to go that route get and load a codec (Lagarith, HuffYUV, UTCodec, etc). The files will be big, but nowhere as large as uncompressed.

[vhsman]

Thank you all for the answers. I appreciate it. I am going to experiment more on this. This is so addictive.

[sanlyn]

Capturing to lossless with help from Lagarith or huffyuv would be the best route if you intend to make any major changes (denoise, color correct, etc.). If all you want is simple cut and join, then cap to MPEG2, use a smart rendering editor that doesn't re-encode the whole thing, then author the result and burn to DVD using something better than Nero. There's little sense in going to the trouble of lossless capture if you don't do anything that requires it. All you need is one initial encode, not more re-encodes.

[vhsman]

I am already seeing considerable improvements. The biggest mistake was to capture to mpeg2. For dvd playback purposes it is best to use logarith codec. Very easy to install on windows 7 64bit. Dv avi within the pinnacle software can be used as well. I authored the dvd from within Pinnacle and it plays clean. No artifacts, wiskers, mosquitos or any other anomalies. I have to remember now to stay away from lossy mpeg 2. I didn't know that. Excellent problem solving all.

[sanlyn]

MPEG2 in itself shouldn't have the problems you mention unless it's used improperly.

Dv avi within the pinnacle software can be used as well. I authored the dvd from within Pinnacle and it plays clean. No artifacts, wiskers, mosquitos or any other anomalies.

Something wrong here. VHS source itself has the noise, Pinnacle doesn't filter it away. All in the beholder's eye, I guess.

[Cornucopia]

Weak links in the chain that could be improved:
1. "Pro amp" - you don't say which one. They can vary greatly. I wouldn't use one unless it was incorporated within a professional TBC (which you might be needing anyway).
2. "Dazzle" capture device (card, or usb dongle, etc). 5-8 years ago this used to be the bottom of the barrel, now eclipsed in badness by Easycap types. If you really want quality, go DV-via-firewire, or better - go Lossless analog-to-digital capping via AIW, Hauppage, etc cards.
3. Anything "Pinnacle". Buggy and MOR (middle-of-the-road) quality. If you're going to ultimately encode to MPEG2, use TMPGEnc or HCEnc for much better and more controllable quality.
4. Whatever you're using for authoring. Use an authoring app that DOESN'T re-encode. Use one that tells you if your encoded MPEG2 sources are not compliant. Then go back and encode them again (from losslessly-compressed AVI source) but this time do it where it's compliant.
5. Your (non-existent) NR processing. As already mentioned, VHS is medium-low quality and noisy to begin with. This is very difficult for an MPEG encoder to work with (without using way too much bitrate). A little bit of APPROPRIATE noise reduction (via AVISynth script or Vdub process) can go a long way toward improving the quality of your resulting encodes - at the same bitrates.
6. Your eyes/brain. You can't make your eyes better, but you can learn some more about digital video, and train yourself to see how artifacts are generated and to be more descriminating. Not trying to be mean, but you have ignored some good suggestions a number of times on this thread alone.

If you really want to move forward with this, I suggest giving us DETAILED stepwise description of your process & equipment (incl. model #s, etc), then give MediaInfo readouts and examples of short clips from the various waypoints in your process (Vdub is good for LL AVI, MPG2Cut2 is good for MPEG2 in this regard).

Scott

[sanlyn]

Yes. In any case...even if the owner is "happy" now, I'd suggest that tapes that are the most valued should not be discarded.

[vhsman]

I am keeping the tapes as I am still in the learning process. BTW the source is a 1986 vhs in excelent condition. No flagging or other bug problems. An AG 1980 is priceless. The most aggressive tbc i have tried so far is the 1980. I hope one day I can try an advc110 to see what it does for me. The used prices on a advc has not dropped a bit on ebay. I also tried an avt8710 in conjunction with my sima scc. Things went worse with the tbc. Noise and faint colors. Horrible. Avt8710 going back to B&H tomorrow. Sima Scc with the default settings even better. Sima Scc cannot understand the output from the AVT 8710. Signals go through the AVT but when colors adjusted from the Sima panels, no change. So, from my observations the source is very important. Colors more saturated through Sima scc without adding visible noise. Sima scc definitely a keeper. It is helpful to start with an excellent vhs. I do have cruddy, washed out, timed base error infested vhs. But that's my next project.
And BTW i did mentioned that I use an ag1980. Also, Lextron RCA cable, sima scc pro, pinnacle dazzle capture, and Maxwell dvd-r. I did follow suggestions from members, but i couldn't figure out how to create dvd menu, icons and butons using avs2dvd. Pinnacle doesn't allow me to create dvd folder on harddrive first. I had to burn directly to disc.

[Cornucopia]

The AG-1980 IS a good purchase!
While the Sima may seem to work for you, I am dubious about it's internal noise. It is much more consumer-oriented level than I would like, certainly.
If the AVT had problems, look into a different TBC, such as the TBC-1000. The correction done by the AG-1980, while good, only takes care of part of the problems you will encounter (or have encountered).
I assume you meant Maxell, not Maxwell. No matter; either way, not the best choice, though this would affect the things you seem to be having trouble with. I do strongly recommend TY or Verbatim for discs - you get what you pay for.
I can also unfortunately say, from experience, that Pinnacle has never made anything worth mentioning. Even after AVID bought them out. Since there are a number of free authoring apps available, I would say that currently, the PINNACLE is the main bottleneck in your system.

If the Pinnacle caps as DV, but it doesn't do it via a firewire port, it's pointless compared to MPEG2. The benefit you would get with DV (via firewire) would have been: Much higher bitrate (aka less compression, less artifacts), Intra-frame-only encoding (aka ease of editing). The drawback might be the 4:1:1 color subsampling vs. MPEG2's 4:2:0. If you have to convert, there will be additional loss.

Good luck,
Scott

[sanlyn]

I also tried an avt8710 in conjunction with my sima scc. Things went worse with the tbc. Noise and faint colors. Horrible. Avt8710 going back to B&H tomorrow. Sima Scc with the default settings even better. Sima Scc cannot understand the output from the AVT 8710. Signals go through the AVT but when colors adjusted from the Sima panels, no change. So, from my observations the source is very important. Colors more saturated through Sima scc without adding visible noise. Sima scc definitely a keeper. It is helpful to start with an excellent vhs. I do have cruddy, washed out, timed base error infested vhs. But that's my next project.
And BTW i did mentioned that I use an ag1980. Also, Lextron RCA cable, sima scc pro, pinnacle dazzle capture, and Maxwell dvd-r. I did follow suggestions from members, but i couldn't figure out how to create dvd menu, icons and butons using avs2dvd. Pinnacle doesn't allow me to create dvd folder on harddrive first. I had to burn directly to disc.

That info is most informative. I see you've been working at it. With that equipment list, you'll need help with the bad tapes. Keep the AG-1980, even if many of its caps are on the verge of brown-out by now but there are outfits that can fix that. But...why are you using RCA Composite with an AG-1980 ?

AVT-8710 for....Macrovision, I guess, but only when there's no other workaround. The levels and gamma can be fixed later. A used Panny or Toshiba DVD recorder as pass-thru would have been better. You stated "Maxwell"...I think you mean Maxell, who haven't made their own discs for several years; outsourced to lower-grade Ritek. Save yourself a few bucks and look for generic branded Office Max, Office Depot, RiData, they're all exactly the same blanks.

Sima ??
I have to stop here.

[_MrC_]

I did follow suggestions from members, but i couldn't figure out how to create dvd menu, icons and butons using avs2dvd.

Just press the 'DVD Menu' button on the toolbar and then follow the wizard...

If you finish a project with AVStoDVD and you are not happy, please do post here the log file. It contains useful info on the source titles properties and project settings.



Bye

[sanlyn]

I tried AVStoDVD a while back, found it somewhat clumsy but it did work. Free apps tend to be laid out along difficult lines, but much of it will give better results once you get the hang of things. IF you'd like to look into something easier to use that still offers good features you might try looking at something like TMPGEnc's line of editors, encoders and authoring tools. Not free, but very popular. Or HCEnc is a great standard def encoder (free), but you'd have to know some very basic Avisynth to use it.

You'll get the better quality you want, even if there is a startup curve -- but that won't take long.