Will an S-Video Cable Help me?

[ifavault]

I am attempting to convert 18 high school basketball games recorded on VHS tape (22 years ago) to DVD. I am using Cyberlink PowerDirector to keep a running score on screen as well as label the screen with the teammate who scored as it happens.

I have used a "Dazzle" converter (and the included software by Pinnacle) to make AVI files of each game using RCA/Composite cords (red, white, and yellow) from a VCR. The video quality I am editing on PowerDirector looks pretty good, however when I burn to DVD, the video quality is notably poor to the point that it is quite blurry and hardly worth watching. I had hoped to make copies of the DVDs and pass them out to my old teammates as a surprise, but not if the quality is as bad as what I'm seeing.

With some research, I have determined that using an S-Video cord to transfer video from the VCR to the computer might improve the video quality such that when burning to DVD, it might look better even if I still lose some quality in the burning process. Does anyone know whether this would work? There are some VHS players with S-Video out-going ports and the "Dazzle" converter has one too, so I can give this a try, but I don't want to get a used VCR (from E-bay) with an S-Video port if this isn't going to help. The VHS players with S-Video ports seem to be exclusively S-VHS players and my tapes are only VHS. Does this matter?

Why am I losing video quality in the burning process and what is the best way to maximize video quality for my project? Any help is appreciated. Thank you.

ifavault

[jagabo]

S-video will get you less dot crawl artifacts. Probably what you really need is an S-VHS deck with a line time base corrector and s-video output. And stick with 1 hour per DVD. If you really have to put more than an hour on a DVD use half D1 resolution (352x480 NTSC, 352x576 PAL). That has almost as much resolution as VHS so you won't really be losing much. But we'd have to see actual captures and conversions to say exactly what you need.

[ifavault]

So here is another question to consider...

Each game video is about 40 minutes long when I make all the edits for title introduction, halftime stats, and end of game information. The original AVI file size for each game is a little over 8GB as transferred from VHS, but the produced video on DVD is only about 4MB and fits on a standard DVD with MPEG-2 encoding. I do have a Blue Ray burner and this is an option with my editing software as well as processing with H.264 quality. Would you expect this to make an immediate difference? The problem here is the added expense of BD-R discs and passing them around as well as the fact that standard DVDs play in most all computers and DVD players. Most people have Blu-Ray players now, but not in their laptops or desktops. Keeping high quality on standard DVDs is my preference.

Thanks.

[hech54]

Blu Ray discs are hit or miss still. Some work better than others....and not just "by brand" but by type.
Home burned DVDs will be a safer bet.
Use Verbatim discs and burn with ImgBurn(after authoring of course).

[jagabo]

We need to see what's wrong with your DVDs. Use Mpg2Cut2 to extract a short representative segment and post it here.

[sanlyn]

So here is another question to consider...

Each game video is about 40 minutes long when I make all the edits for title introduction, halftime stats, and end of game information. The original AVI file size for each game is a little over 8GB as transferred from VHS, but the produced video on DVD is only about 4MB and fits on a standard DVD with MPEG-2 encoding.

You're apparently capturing to a lossy format, then encoding a second time to even lower bitrates. There is no way to achieve decent quality with those methods. 40 minutes of video on 8GB of "AVI" tells me it's lossy encoded. "AVI" is a container, not a format, and 40 minutes of video on "4MB" of MPEG2 is probably not even DVD spec. Tell us more about how you are capturing and encoding.

[jagabo]

It looks to me like he's capturing DV AVI. That should be fine for VHS.

[sanlyn]

40 minutes on 8GB of Dv doesn't sound that bad, but.....

....
Each game video is about 40 minutes long when I make all the edits for title introduction, halftime stats, and end of game information. The original AVI file size for each game is a little over 8GB as transferred from VHS, but the produced video on DVD is only about 4MB and fits on a standard DVD with MPEG-2 encoding.

40 DVD minutes in 4MB? Doesn't sound right. Must be a typo.

[ifavault]

Very Sorry...it is a typo. 4GB for 40 minutes of produced video. Thanks for the correction.

So the procedure for my video capture is VCR to "Dazzle" conversion unit by RCA composite cables. The "Dazzle" has a USB connection to the computer. I capture the video with the "Dazzle" video editing software and it creates an AVI file for me at about 8GB per 36-38 minutes of video. I then import that file into my Cyberlink PowerDirector software for editing and get a poor quality video burn to DVD that is about 4GB of disk space.

If there is a better method for capture, I'm all ears. The initial question remains. Will an S-Video cord/capture make a difference? I feel the decreased quality comes from a decrease from 8GB to 4GB, so I'm not sure the S-Cord will do it, but I'm willing to try other things.

Thank you everybody.

ifavault

[sanlyn]

S-video would have a somewhat sharper image, in that there is less noise such as dot crawl. It isn't usually a quantum improvement, but is definitely visible and easier to work with in post-processing; less input noise means less destructive filtering. This assumes that you work directly from a VCR's s-video output, and not with cheap s-video"converters", which make things worse. Higher-end S-VHS VCR's tend to employ noise reduction and line tbc's, although not all of these machines are equipped with either. S-VHS machines can play VHS (they will look like VHS on output, not like S-VHS), but most have little or no talent with VHS recorded at slow EP or SLP speeds.

Another factor in your method that costs quality is the lack of intermediate processing. VHS is noisy, and encoders (even DV encoders) don't behave well with noisy source. With no intermediate cleaning, the original noise and encoded artifacts are compounded on the next encode. Video encoding isn't like ZIP or RAR, which are lossless compressors. Video encoding is lossy, even at high bitrates -- the lower the bitrate, and the more the signal goes through additional encodes, the more data is lost. Re-encoding at a higher bitrate still loses something, and it won't get back what's already gone.

The process of burning to disc in itself is a lossless process.

[jagabo]

Once again, provide some samples. Nobody can tell you if what you're seeing is typical or not without seeing the source and the result.

[ifavault]

While I work on trying to post a short video sample as requested by jagabo...in a perfect world, what is the best method of production (VHS to digital file transfer) for my described project which is to convert the video and overlay the information on screen that I want? What equipment and software would a professional use for maximum quality of VHS to digital file conversion? Can VHS video be brought through via co-ax or HDMI for better quality? How about changing the file acquisition type other than AVI?

Thanks again. I'm getting some good education. Appreciate it.

ifavault

[sanlyn]

I'll echo jagabo: without a short sample of your unprocessed, captured DV-AVI before any other work performed, recommendations will be very general.

I understand your basic question about how a "pro" would handle such projects, but really professional software/hardware is beyond the means of most members here. But don't despair. Despite the fact that hobbyists don't have $$$$ or pro shops, most of us do use professional "methods". Basically, the best quality involves this: use the best VCR you can find (usually an older but well-maintained unit). That VCR might be an S-VHS machine with built-in tbc and noise reduction, or it could be without tbc but coupled with a pass-thru tbc device such as a DVD recorder whose line-conditioning circuitry is used to send a cleaner signal to your capture device. Capture VHS to losslessly compressed YUY2 AVI (using huffyuv or lagarith lossless compression). Work within that lossless medium using various filtering apps such as Avisynth or VirtualDub, to remove the usual noise, bad frames, rainbows, dropouts, and other VHS problems that cause ugly encodes. Then there are any number of free or paid editors, special effects and captioning apps. And finally, there are free and paid encoders for the final encoding step, and free and paid authoring programs for burning your final product.

I need not explain that this method takes time, and there's a learning curve.

Your other choice could well be to capture initially to high-bitrate DV-AVI, decode that to lossless media for cleanup and FX, then encode, author, and burn.

To get a longer answer, start where many members started: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video.htm

[jagabo]

Your other choice could well be to capture initially to high-bitrate DV-AVI, decode that to lossless media

That makes no sense. The first step of filtering any video is decoding the source to uncompressed frames. Saving that as as a lossless intermediate doesn't gain you anything -- except in the case of long GOP codecs where seeking to particular frames can be very slow. But DV AVI is all I frames and decodes about as fast as any lossless codec.

[jagabo]

You don't have to go to great extents to get VHS watchable if you're putting less than an hour on a DVD (unless the VHS tape or deck is in very bad shape). There's probably something going wrong in your processing. Without seeing your source and your encoded video nobody can give specific advice.

[sanlyn]

Your other choice could well be to capture initially to high-bitrate DV-AVI, decode that to lossless media

That makes no sense. The first step of filtering any video is decoding the source to uncompressed frames. Saving that as as a lossless intermediate doesn't gain you anything -- except in the case of long GOP codecs where seeking to particular frames can be very slow. But DV AVI is all I frames and decodes about as fast as any lossless codec.

Disagree. Feeding DV-AVI directly to MPEG2, you might as well just record directly to DVD with a recorder, making DV a waste of time.

[jagabo]

Feeding DV-AVI directly to MPEG2, you might as well just record directly to DVD with a recorder, making DV a waste of time.

I didn't say he shouldn't filter the video. I said there's nothing to gain by converting to a lossless codec first.

[ifavault]

OK. So here's where I'm at. When I'm doing my editing in PowerDirector, the movie window is not very large and I think the perception (and possibly the reality) of slightly better video quality is there, however when I view the produced DVD on a full screen monitor or TV the blurriness is really apparent. So I went back to view the original AVI file in Windows Media Player on full monitor screen and you know what...the quality is poor there as well, so that tells me the video transfer isn't as good as I thought. It also tells me that the "Dazzle" unit could be a poor device for this purpose or the S-Video cord might help, but I don't think it is the video software and production process because I really don't see a difference now between the original file and final output. Thank you to jagabo for sending me in this direction.

I definitely need a better transfer process, so I'm going to try and buy an S-VHS player, use the S-Video cord and see what happens for the $40.00 it will take to get the player from e-bay. If that doesn't work, I'll look into some other converter besides the "Dazzle" because that may also be the issue. Does anyone have what they consider to be a good converter of VHS to digital file besides this "Dazzle" thing I picked up at Best Buy?

Thank you for all the information. I will keep looking for more responses if anyone has additional information and I will follow up with how things progress with the S-Video transfer.

ifavault

[jagabo]

I doubt your capture card is the problem. VHS only has about 360x480 resolution for the luma and 40x480 for the chroma. That's not a typo.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1981589

See post 77 of that thread for the source image with the sinusoidal chroma function:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1980652

Just about any capture device can capture that. The biggest differences between different capture devices is external noise, incorrect levels, poor sync, etc. Not picture sharpness (as far as VHS is concerned). Try capturing from a DVD player or other high quality source. You'll see the card is capable of much sharper caps than you're getting from VHS.

An SVHS deck will only be a tiny bit sharper (unless there's something wrong with your current VHS deck). The major improvements will come from the line TBC. That will stabilize the horizontal jitter, a major cause of poor MPEG encoding. I doubt you'll get a decent functioning SVHS deck for $40.

[ifavault]

Do you think it might make a difference if I got some higher quality RCA/composite cords? The ones I used seem a little thin and flimsy compared to some I've seen. If you don't think it's the capture card itself, could weak cords be limiting the data coming through? I just don't see why the transfer quality is so poor coming from the VHS tape that is relatively good if I watch it on TV straight from the VCR on a cheap unit. It doesn't seem like this should be so difficult to get slightly better video quality. I'm not looking for HD quality here, but I really can hardly make out the numbers on the jerseys, so it's got to get just a little better to be usable for my project.

[jagabo]

Do you think it might make a difference if I got some higher quality RCA/composite cords?

Probably not.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/221249-Test-Caps-various-composite-and-s-video-cabl...ight=composite

It doesn't seem like this should be so difficult to get slightly better video quality.

Once again, some video samples would be helpful in determining if you what you are seeing is normal or abnormal. At least a few still shots of the source and the MPG.

[sanlyn]

Feeding DV-AVI directly to MPEG2, you might as well just record directly to DVD with a recorder, making DV a waste of time.

I didn't say he shouldn't filter the video. I said there's nothing to gain by converting to a lossless codec first.

Then I'm missing something here. If capture to lossy is the only method available, how would one filter directly with a lossy DV-AVI? I'll just follow along, as I never work directly on DV. The only way I know to clean up VHS captured to DV is with Avisynth. If the source were DV, then DV-to-DV via Firewire is the way I've always seen it. Will wait on this one.

And we need a sample anyway.

[jagabo]

I'm missing something here. If capture to lossy is the only method available, how would one filter directly with a lossy DV-AVI?

You filter the DV AVI exactly the same way you would filter a losslessly compressed AVI:

AviSource("DV.AVI")
Filter()

vs.

AviSource("lossless.avi")
Filter()

There's no need to convert the DV AVI to a lossless AVI before filtering.

[sanlyn]

OK, we're talking about the same thing. No, you don't have to create a separate AVI, then process and end up with an extra AVI that just sits there. Sorry.

[suelaine]

I use a Magnovox DVR with a DVD burner. I have copied over many VHS tapes and burned them to DVD and while I realize some quality would actually be lost in this process, it is not noticeable to me at all. The ones that were horrible quality to begin with look the same and even good quality VHS videos looked about the same as the original when burned to DVD. I just use the regular RCA cables out from the VCR to the inputs of the DVR / DVD recorder. I have also seen units that have a VHS/DVD burning combo feature. I never had one of those and don't know if they are still available anywhere. I'm guessing they would produce similar results to my method. Of course if you really want the videos on your PC first to do some editing before burning to DVD then the methods I use won't work well for you. However on occasion, I have taken the burned DVD and ripped that to my PC, and made some edits, and burned it back to a new DVD. I still had good results and very little noticeable (to my eyes anyway) loss of quality.