Capturing "NTSC Playback on PAL TV"

[memrah]

Hello.

I have been capturing my VHS tapes to DV, via the passthrough function of a Sony Digital8 (TRV-460E) camcorder. The setup works fine. The tapes and equipment are all PAL.

My question is, I have a few NTSC VHS tapes, and my VHS VCR (Sony SVL-835) has an "NTSC Playback on PAL TV" function. I realize it is not true NTSC but is there any way I can capture that signal to DV via the Digital8 camcorder?

If that is not possible, I may be able to borrow an NTSC VHS VCR from a friend, but then the signal from that will be true NTSC and the passthrough device is a PAL camcorder. Will the camcorder be able to convert the NTSC signal to PAL DV?

Thanks

[usually_quiet]

I think you would need NTSC output from the VHS deck and a NTSC Digital8 camcorder to get good DV conversion from those tapes using the camcorder's pass-through. As I recall from previous discussions, your VCR's "NTSC Playback on PAL TV" function would generate a PAL60 signal, which uses PAL 4.43 MHz color and NTSC resolution at 60Hz instead of PAL resolution at 50Hz. It doesn't seem likely that your PAL Digital8 camcorder can correctly process such a signal.

If using NTSC output from a VHS deck and a NTSC Digital8 camcorder are not an option, I have seen some PC capture devices (but not with DV output) that can capture a PAL 60 signal, and I recall reading that a few DVD recorders could also capture PAL 60 as NTSC DVD video.

[turk690]

I have been capturing my VHS tapes to DV, via the passthrough function of a Sony Digital8 (TRV-460E) camcorder. The setup works fine. The tapes and equipment are all PAL.

My question is, I have a few NTSC VHS tapes, and my VHS VCR (Sony SVL-835) has an "NTSC Playback on PAL TV" function. I realize it is not true NTSC but is there any way I can capture that signal to DV via the Digital8 camcorder?

Though it's not specifically part of your problem at this time, your TRV-460E is capable of playing back D8/Hi8 NTSC tapes, outputting a PAL60 signal analogue and appropriate 60i DV-AVI. NTSC playability is one undocumented feature of PAL Sony DV and D8 camcorders. While playback in this situation goes on, "NTSC" is indicated on the upper part of the camcorder LCD. Knowing this, why not go further and experiment with both true NTSC (NTSC3.58) and pseudo NTSC (NTSC4.43, like your SVL-835) VCRs and just connect them to the camcorder analogue inputs and see just how it reacts?

[memrah]

usually_quiet & turk690, thanks for your responses.

I may be wrong, but I kinda suspected that the Sony D8 models shared almost identical hardware for different markets (PAL/NTSC) and that there was probably a firmware switch or perhaps a little jumper inside that turned their VCR sections into PAL or NTSC devices. If the 460E can handle the playback of analog (Hi8/V8) NTSC tapes and output 60i DV-AVI, I imagine it wouldn't be too unlikely if it could convert the analog signal fed in through the S-Video input jack. In a few days, I will just try doing it like turk690 suggested and see what happens. I will share the results here.

Thanks.

[memrah]

OK, so today I happened to have some free time, and I wanted to see what would happen if I fed a true NTSC signal into the analog input of the TRV460E. My VHS VCR only does "NTSC Playback on PAL TV", ie. PAL60 (not true NTSC) so I decided to use a digital media player I have, which can output both PAL and NTSC via S-Video.

The media player is an old, MVIX MX-760HD.

I hooked up the MX-760HD S-Video output to the S-Video input of the TRV-460E. I turned on the 460E, and then as soon as I turned on the MVIX, the media player menu showed up on the camcorder LCD screen.

I was expecting that, as the MVIX output was set to PAL. I then went into the SETUP menu of the MVIX and changed the TV STANDARD option to NTSC. As soon as I did that I lost the image on the camcorder LCD screen, and got the regular blue standby screen that the camcorder displays when there is no signal.

I changed the MVIX output back to PAL and the immediately the image came back on the camcorder LCD screen.

So apparently the TRV-460E doesn't accept NTSC analog input. I then tried to trick it into switching to NTSC mode by keeping the MVIX on and in NTSC mode while turning off all power to the camcorder and powering it back up again. That didn't work either. I thought if the first signal it encountered after being powered up was NTSC it might switch to NTSC. That was probably a silly idea. Haha.

Next I will try feeding the camcorder the PAL60 signal from my SVL-825 VHS VCR but I have a feeling that will not work. I don't even think the DV-AVI format can handle PAL60, but I may be wrong about that.

Anyway, looks like I may have to find an NTSC-compatible capture device to digitize my NTSC VHS tapes.

[hech54]

I can capture an NTSC tape through a European VCR.....it can be done.....but it very much depends on the capture hardware as well as the capture software involved.

[danno78]

Some ways to get the job done:
A = You need one NTSC vcr (or one with Multi System feature) and one capture card (all can capture PAL and NTSC) or NTSC camcorder with analog to digital conversion function. Feed true NTSC signal and NTSC capture device. Some DVD recorders (Panasonic and others) can be set in NTSC standard from menu.
B = one PAL vcr with "NTSC playback on PAL TV" feature and one capture card with PAL60 standard available in drivers. Usually capture cards with Philips chip have. Only some Pioneer DVD recorders can understand PAL60.

[Nrogara]

Do you have by any chance access to a computer with a 4-pin firewire? This way you can digitally connect your camcorder to your computer using a Firewire 400 4pin to 4pin cable. (other cables that convert to 6pin or 8 pin firewire are not recommended). If you do, only start the capture program (Stoik is free and a good option, more on that later) after your cam is playing the tape, this way the firewire in your computer (if you bought the computer in Europe the initialisation default will be PAL) will initialise in NTSC instead of PAL, then start the capture program and you can start recording. This is the easiest and cheapest way to do it. With Stoik you can start the capture program first, use it to control the camera, press the start key on Stoik (do not press Record just yet) you will see a pixelated image, press the Tune button accept the default pressing apply, the image on you computer screen should be fixed now and just press Record. The captured image will be the best you can get with the type of equipment you mentioned.
Note: The reason way this is not obvious is because though your camera can play NTSC on a PAL TV, the output sent through the digital (firewire) or analog (A/V in/out) are NTSC, it's your TV that has the ability to play NTSC on a PAL TV.
Hope this helps, good luck.
N.

[memrah]

@danno78 : You are right. I have given up on trying to get the job done using the PAL camcorder's passthrough function. I just couldn't get it to work with an NTSC signal. I will probably get a capture card that can handle both PAL and NTSC. Actually, I have a Pinnacle Dazzle DVC 170 USB capture device but I am not sure whether the capture quality of that is good or not as it is now a 7-year old device.

@Nrogara : Thank you for your response. I have never used Stoik before. I will give it a try. What seems to be the problem with my setup is, the PAL camcorder doesn't like it when I feed an NTSC signal into it. As soon as I switch to an NTSC signal, the passthrough function stops and gives me a blank, blue screen. I think if I was trying to convert an NTSC Hi8 or Digital8 cassette by playing it in the camcorder, your method would work, but I am trying to convert a VHS tape by feeding the analog video output of a VHS deck into the D8 camcorder, and using the camcorder's A/D passthrough function. So I don't think the PAL camcorder even puts out a DV stream through its firewire port while an analog NTSC signal is fed in.

[Nrogara]

memrah: I'm sorry should have read your question more attentively. But basically the problem is the same, it's not your VHS that converts to Pal, he's just capable to read it and transformes in a way your TV can play it, but it's not a true Pal signal. You can't use your camera as a pass-through, the input from your VHS will not be correctly understood, even Stoik can't help there. But you already have the solution, your answer @danno78 is correct. Maybe you can try de Dazzle you have (it should be more than enough, it handles a resolution higher that your tapes, so no loss here. Though the transition to digital might not be as good as if you used a NTSC cam similar to your but with the "E") with the Stoik capture. Capture maybe 2 min of video and compare it to what you get with the Pinnacle software (get updates, if any).