Capturing old VHS family videos - a few questions

[Wills]

Hi all,

I'm going to finally rip all my family's old VHS tapes onto my iMac, and then put them on DVD for everyone to enjoy.
I've done a few minutes of test rip and all seems to be going well so far, but I have a few questions:

The hardware I'm using is an Elgato Eye TV 250 Plus which I've had for some time. It has a composite and S video input for video, and stereo audio input. Those outputs plug into the Eye TV hardware box, and that in turn links to the Mac by USB.
The output from my VHS player is composite from a EuroConnector, so I'm just using that and twin mono stereo (video was recorded between 1986 and 1999 on an old Sony shoulder held vidcam on S8 tapes, mono stereo mic only. I used to copy the S8 tapes onto VHS and then reuse the Sony tapes. Pity; I knew it was lossy but there was no other choice back then.)

My question is mainly about formats. The EyeTV software is good; I've just let it update itself and it seems to capture very well, although the source material is of course somewhat lacking in clarity and quality.

Once I have a VHS tape ripped into the EyeTV software, I then want to export it using the built-in export functions, so that I can edit it and so on in iMovie 11.

The question is, what should I export it as? The EyeTV software has an export setting for iMovie 09 but not iMovie 11 but it doesn't seem to tell me any more about the specifics of that export setting. As I say, I've just updated the software so it's a bit odd that it doesn't have an export setting for iMovie 11 but I suppose it won't affect the quality.

It also allows me to export as pretty much anything - mkv, mp4, mov, avi, mpg.

I tried exporting it as mp4 but when I brought it into iMovie I could already see some quality loss and artifacts.
And of course iMovie is not the end of the process - I then have to compress the data and author DVDs, so it would make sense to keep the editing containers as high-res as possible without being ridiculous (given that the source is low-res).
Ideally I'd like to export it as something which is as close to lossless as possible, but without being hundreds of gigs in size per tape. I have a few tapes to rip, so I'm looking for a happy medium.

If anyone has any experience or can point me in the right direction with this, I'd be hugely grateful.
Some good advice now will save me hours of trial and error!

Many thanks!
Will

[hech54]

Hi all,

I'm going to finally rip all my family's old VHS tapes onto my iMac, and then put them on DVD for everyone to enjoy.

I tried exporting it as mp4

MP4 can never be DVD.
DVD is Mpeg2.
https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech

The Mpeg2 file must then be AUTHORED to DVD specs.
https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#struct

[Wills]

Ah ok, thanks.

Would it be beneficial to rip it to something prior to converting it to MPEG2?
Or should I just do it straight to that.

I won't be editing too heavily. I might make a highlights reel but that's about it.

[sanlyn]

You should understand that VHS can't be "ripped" to a computer without quality loss. To "rip" a piece of video has a specific meaning. People like to use the word rip for everything; you could just as well say that while your software is ripping your VHS you can go to the kitchen and rip yourself a cup of coffee. VHS and similar sources aren't ripped: more properly, they're captured.
https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?R#Rip
https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?C#Capture

You are apparently capturing to a lossy compressed format (I don't know how your software encodes, but it definitely sounds like a lossy format). That entails a quality loss from the get-go. The video will then have to be re-encoded to MPEG2 -- another lossy format. The "loss" entails more than just a reduction from original quality: it also entails an imbedding of VHS noise as a permanent feature of the digital encode. It is extremely difficult to remove these artifacts, if not impossible.

Both steps described above involve digital encoding. Video encoding is not like ZIP, RAR or similar compressors, which are lossless. You compress a file with ZIP, decompress it, and recompress it again and again with no data loss. But video encoding is lossy; each re-encode entails further loss; it also amplifies artifacts and other defects. Lossless compressors don't care if your video has a lot of noise; they compress and decompress noise as-is, with no change. But video encoders dislike noise; they expect a clean signal. So each re-encode compounds one set of artifacts upon another, and many of those artifacts are the result of incremental data loss. The artifacts include worsening block noise, chroma noise, clipping, banding, object distortion, motion artifacts, and many other ugly bad guys.

The best quality from VHS captures involves capturing to lossless YUY2 or, at worst, YV12. You can save disc space by capturing with hufftyuv or Lagarith real-time lossless compression. Note: this is not "encoding", it is rather more like the lossless compression of ZIP or RAR. The latter compressors are too slow for capture; huffyuv and Lagarith are fast compressors designed for real-time capture. From that point you would work in lossless AVI to clean the usual VHS defects, then use only one encode to the lossy encoder of your choice (MPEG2, h264, or whatever. In your case you want MPEG2). Then author that for DVD disc.

If you want to skip all that cleanup, then capture directly to MPEG2, and make no other conversions. That's not the "best" way (you still have all those VHS defects permanently immortalized in digital form). But it's far superior to multiple encodes.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video.htm

[Wills]

Many thanks for taking the time to explain all that. And I totally see your point about 'ripping'. It has become somewhat of a catch-all.

I'll investigate to see if I can capture my source in a lossless format and then see where I go from there.

If I can, I might see if I can run some filters on it, since I've found that some of the interior shots were so dark as to be almost black. (I had a tripod light but it used to start smoking after 20 mins, much to my parent's surprise, and in any case on Xmas day who wants a mini theatre light in the background?)

I know that running contrast or other filters on a dark piece of old VHS will produce some fairly horrible end results but I think for those dark interior shots it'd be better to see something and lose quality rather than nothing at all..... The old camera had an auto white balance feature but to be honest in those days amateur equipment was pretty awful. Not that it was cheap! I think the camera set my Dad back around £1,200. (1986)

If the EyeTV software doesn't let me capture to a lossless format perhaps I can use the hardware as a source with some other piece of software. I'll check it out.

I will also go through the guide you pointed me too.

Cheers,
Will

[usually_quiet]

Many thanks for taking the time to explain all that. And I totally see your point about 'ripping'. It has become somewhat of a catch-all.

I'll investigate to see if I can capture my source in a lossless format and then see where I go from there.

If I can, I might see if I can run some filters on it, since I've found that some of the interior shots were so dark as to be almost black. (I had a tripod light but it used to start smoking after 20 mins, much to my parent's surprise, and in any case on Xmas day who wants a mini theatre light in the background?)

I know that running contrast or other filters on a dark piece of old VHS will produce some fairly horrible end results but I think for those dark interior shots it'd be better to see something and lose quality rather than nothing at all..... The old camera had an auto white balance feature but to be honest in those days amateur equipment was pretty awful. Not that it was cheap! I think the camera set my Dad back around £1,200. (1986)

If the EyeTV software doesn't let me capture to a lossless format perhaps I can use the hardware as a source with some other piece of software. I'll check it out.

I will also go through the guide you pointed me too.

Cheers,
Will

If you want to make your captures in a lossless format, you probably do need a different capture device. The Elgato Eye TV 250 Plus does hardware MPEG-2 encoding or hardware MPEG-1 encoding. Many capture devices that do hardware encoding are incapable of providing uncompressed output to have the option to use lossless codecs. The other problem is lossless codecs and capture software suitable for OSX. Your choices there are limited.

I have never used it because I am a Windows user, but VideoGlide is one choice for capture software that appears to be able to do lossless captures. http://www.echofx.com/videoglide.html and the StarTech SVID2USB2 is a decent capture device to use with it http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-SVID2USB2-S-Video-Composite-Capture/dp/B000O5RIWO. VideoGlide includes suitable OSX drivers for some devices that only have Windows drivers from the manufacturer. There is a list of supported devices on the VideoGlide product page. [Edit]VideoGlide appears to have a trial available, and if it does, you should try before you buy.

[sanlyn]

I haven't used a Mac for several years, so I can't advise you there. There are many Mac experts here who can chime in.

No will one would debate that capture and processing with loossless media takes up HDD room and takes time as well, but that's the recommended way. As with anything to do with this insane activity, it's a learning process. But if as you say you have a problem video, you'll find that corrections in the original (YUV) color space are infinitely more satisfying and effective. The main ingredient is patience, but it does pay dividends. Video that's too dark or too bright, etc., has some corrective tricks to it that are not difficult -- but different from what you'd expect. You can feel free to submit short samples of problems to the forum. Members here will pounce on it. Good luck.

[Wills]

Wow. Thanks for all your replies. What with often using more public forums and boards, I'd forgotten the internet is also used by people who are friendly, helpful, and can spell. A refreshing change.

I've taken on board all your points about my project. If, as it seems, my EyeTV is simply a hardware MPEG2 encoder, then perhaps I should resurrect a Windows card I still have - the Pinnacle Studio MovieBoard Plus. I can't find out much about this, but I think perhaps it also is a direct hardware encoder. It's a PCI card, and in fact is still in my Windows box but I haven't even installed the drivers in Windows 7. I had Pinnacle 10 software which I tinkered with for a bit.

Does anyone happen to know what this card captures? Perhaps I could use it to capture a lossless copy prior to starting work? It's a PINNACLE Studio MovieBoard Plus 700 Pci. The only spec page I can find that still works is here:

If this cannot capture lossless footage either, I'm going to go with my elgato EyeTV box, since I don't think it's worth buying a new piece of equipment just for these 9 VHS tapes.

Cheers all!
Will

[usually_quiet]

Wow. Thanks for all your replies. What with often using more public forums and boards, I'd forgotten the internet is also used by people who are friendly, helpful, and can spell. A refreshing change.

I've taken on board all your points about my project. If, as it seems, my EyeTV is simply a hardware MPEG2 encoder, then perhaps I should resurrect a Windows card I still have - the Pinnacle Studio MovieBoard Plus. I can't find out much about this, but I think perhaps it also is a direct hardware encoder. It's a PCI card, and in fact is still in my Windows box but I haven't even installed the drivers in Windows 7. I had Pinnacle 10 software which I tinkered with for a bit.

Does anyone happen to know what this card captures? Perhaps I could use it to capture a lossless copy prior to starting work? It's a PINNACLE Studio MovieBoard Plus 700 Pci. The only spec page I can find that still works is here:

If this cannot capture lossless footage either, I'm going to go with my elgato EyeTV box, since I don't think it's worth buying a new piece of equipment just for these 9 VHS tapes.


Cheers all!
Will

I found an old catalog listing for the product at a US online electronics retailer, TigerDirect. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2485657

I think Pinnacle Studio MovieBoard Plus likely does not use hardware encoding for analog captures because the specs show MPEG-2, MPEG-1, DV, and MJPEG as available compression options. DV is probably only available using firewire, but MJPEG seems like something that software would be used to encode. However the hardware is rather unique and according to some reviewers only works with the software that comes with it, which may mean that MJPEG is the closest thing to lossless compression that you can achieve with it.

[sanlyn]

MJPEG is lossy. It ain't pretty.

[2Bdecided]

MJPEG is lossy. It ain't pretty.

Surely that depends on the bitrate/quantiser? You do get to choose!

I'd avoid old Pinnacle software though. Easy to use, but very crashy.


Try the Elgato at 9Mbps MPEG-2 and see how it turns out straight to DVD. If you just want to do some simple editing, use one of the editors that will cut MPEG-2 without re-encoding.

Or try it at 15Mbps if you want to fiddle with the result.


It's sad that you don't have the originals, but though at the time I could see a huge difference between an S-VHS camera original and a VHS copy, now they both look pretty awful compared with HD! Admittedly the VHS copy looks more awful, but the quality of the S-VHS camera original doesn't look to be as good an improvement as it used to. It's still a crappy SD analogue format with lousy chroma resolution.

Cheers,
David.

[sanlyn]

Capturing to lossy at high bitrates is of course better than the usual low-bitrate garbage, but you still have VHS noise and defects encoded and tough to clean up. Depends on the source, I guess. I've captured a few retail tapes, nice clean issues, to DVD recorders at very high bitrates and got fairly decent results with the Panasonic ES20 and Toshiba RD-XS34. But those were well mastered retail VHS issues. Home-made recordings off cable, noisy shaky videos from analog cameras -- the difference between lossy captures and lossless with those sources is astounding.

And every time I watch those VHS->DVD recordings I start kicking myself for not keeping the tapes. The more I learn about video, and the better my equipment gets, the worse they look.

[2Bdecided]

And every time I watch those VHS->DVD recordings I start kicking myself for not keeping the tapes. The more I learn about video, and the better my equipment gets, the worse they look.

You could clean up those recordings though. Not as good as starting from lossless, but they could still be improved.

Cheers,
David.

[sanlyn]

Yes, they can. I just cleaned up a couple of them (more or less) in another recent thread. And what a headache. Not my video, and like many here I take these on as a learning experience. Certainly, it's better with a decent high-bitrate source, but...wow, I keep thinking "This would have been so much easier and cleaner."

[Wills]

Well, given that I want to edit some of it (try and improve dark interior shots), I wonder which the best of my two systems to use would be?

Much of the footage is exterior, since that always yielded the best results, but there is of course some interior night stuff that needs working to make it worth inclusion.

Once I've started the capturing, I will of course ask for help from the forum as to how to proceed, and post some short examples to illustrate the problem......

Windows 7, Pinnacle Studio 12 Ultimate, with its PCI card, or Mac OSX with Elgato Eye TV software and iMovie 11
?
Perhaps since I cannot seem to import the MPEG2 from Elgato's capture process into iMovie without conversion, it would seem to warrant doing it on the PC. But although I run both, I would rather work on the Mac. I also have premiere pro CS5 on the Mac - I wonder if that can import MPEG2, edit sections and then author a DVD without re-encoding (and thus losing quality) the stuff that doesn't need improving.

Questions, questions.
As always, your help is genuinely appreciated.

Will

A sidebar - what would be the absolute cheapest way of getting uncompressed footage onto Mac or PC?
Is there something affordable I can get from ebay 2nd hand and then resell...?
The 'capturing' systems I have on both machines are used thus far only for a composite feed from my Satellite TV box in the other room, so capturing has never been an issue thus far.

[Wills]

Bump?

[sanlyn]

Premiere and similar NLE's are fine editors and effective for color grading, masking, and other processing, but there are better denoisers and encoders, and Premiere doesn't have the denoise/repair capacity or flexibility of something like Avisynth or even VirtualDub. Many video problems can't be solved with interlaced video and are best handled in the original YUV colorspace, so that leads again to Avisynth. Most of the free and paid video utilities around today won't work with the Mac OS.

[Wills]

Right I'll bear that in mind.
Off the top of your head, can you think of anything cheapish I can buy from ebay to allow me to capture uncompressed data onto my PC or Mac?
I could then resell it.....

Thanks as always.
Will

[sanlyn]

Sorry to say, I haven't bought a capture card or looked at any since I bought my ATI's in 2001 and 2004. Those All In Wonders were AGP cards, anyway, and AGP motherboards are rare today. I think I bought some of the last AGP boards in stock at TigerDirect five years ago. But All In Wonders are even more rare; people bought them or they came with new PC's, but owners discarded or lost the connecting cables. And those cards are NTSC or PAL specific; they handle one or the other, not both. There are a few older PCi capture-only versions, but they won't work with Win7. Yet, I've seen members here list newer devices, so they must be available somewhere.

[usually_quiet]

Right I'll bear that in mind.
Off the top of your head, can you think of anything cheapish I can buy from ebay to allow me to capture uncompressed data onto my PC or Mac?
I could then resell it.....

Thanks as always.
Will

Capture devices that the manufacturer says can be used with both Windows 7 and OSX are almost non-existent. All I could find was the elgato Video Capture : http://www.elgato.com/elgato/na/mainmenu/products/Video-Capture/product1.en.html I'm not certain about what Windows software is compatible with it, although virtualdub probably is. I won't try to guess regarding OSX

There is also the StarTech SVID2USB2 from post #6 above, but if that is too expensive, then there is the KWorld DVD Maker USB 2.0 VS- USB2800 Either works with the virtualdub software mentioned in this thread for uncompressed or losslessly compressed captures, as well as VideoGlide on a Mac for uncompressed capture. (The VideoGlide software I mentioned above in post #6 provides OSX-compatible drivers. With out it, there probably aren't any.) Note that the Windows software bundled with the KWorld DVD Maker USB 2.0 is not compatible with Windows 7. Also, be aware that uncompressed standard-definition video consumes 60GB of hard drive space per hour, and losslessly compressed video standard-definition consumes 30GB to 40GB per hour.

Information about where to obtain the latest Windows 7 drivers for the the StarTech SVID2USB2can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/review/R13EG4HUZZRZBW/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R13EG4HUZZRZBW ...and the drivers for the KWorld DVD Maker USB 2.0 VS- USB2800 can be downloaded from here: http://us.kworld-global.com/main/prod_in.aspx?mnuid=1306&modid=10&prodid=104

The product page for VideoGlide (see post #6 above) contains a short list of capture devices that only come with Windows drivers, but still work with OSX using the drivers provided with VideoGlide. You could look there for more options if none of the above suits you.

[Wills]

Great, many thanks.