So, I have one last question. I have about another 100 hours of footage to digitize and I am wondering; should I even bother to see if I can find another D8 camcorder that doesn't have the issues that my 460E has or is the 2000E capture quality about as good as I can get from these tapes?
+ Reply to Thread
Results 31 to 47 of 47
On the subject of green and magenta lines along the right edge, I have seen a similar artifact on a DVB-S channel. It's not just a color artifact like for your tapes though. Comparing to the DVD, it looks like the discolored content is just the right-most pixel(s) stretched out rather than real picture content.
[Attachment 17135 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 17137 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 17138 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 17136 - Click to enlarge]
Last edited by vaporeon800; 8th Apr 2013 at 01:53.
Interesting. This is just a guess, but can this be happening during the analog->digital conversion process, I wonder. (Perhaps when some analog levels are not within correct limits?) Like I said, I may be wrong though. It is just a guess.
Just to be clear, there was no analog involved on my end in recording the DVB-S stream. Of course I don't know what manipulations were performed before that point, but the colors, levels, and detail don't appear to deviate very far from the DVD.
I'm new here, I registered because I have quite the same problem with my Sony DCR-TRV 720E.
Mine has the green edge (if red or orange objects are there) on both left and right sides, but not as intense as the TRV-460E owned by memrah.
First I thought these edges are normal for my old V8/Hi8 tapes, but VHS-tapes, which I sent through the S-Video input of the cam, played by a good VHS recorder, had the same issue.
So I captured with an old Terratek MPEG-II grabber, with another Camera (Sharp Viewcam VL-H400 via S-Video) and hello - there weren't any green edges on the same V8/Hi8 tapes, so...
...I captured from TRV 720E via Terratek and the green edges were far smaller (but not completely gone).
Last try, I captured (via DV again) the camera picture itself, and - there were no green edges. Even not, when recorded (on Hi8 tape) and then grabbed via DV (that scratches my following theory).
I can only assume that a part of my 720E's A/D converter is out of adjustment (since ever ?). TBC and DNR settings have no influence on the edge effect.
I bought this used cam, once an expensive one, for grabbing old videos, but I have now to black out the borders with Virtual Dub, so it's nearly useless for me now, apart from having about 300GB of steady (TBC), but in fact useless DV-Avi files.
I also got access to a service manual, which is for a number of those cams together (320/420/520/525/620/720), but messing with chroma and A/D settings seems to be a very hard task - without professional Video testing equipment like an oscilloscope. Sony made the access procedures to its camera systems very microcontroller-like. I would rather begin to refresh my 68k-assembler skills than doing this.
Now my questions -
Did meanwhile anybody find a solution for this problem ? Is it a general problem with these cams/series ? Maybe capacitor failure ? Or simply component tolerance/aging ? Or an incompatiibilty with the windows DV driver (that could give me at least some hope) ?
I would appreciate any help, thank you for reading !
I am the original poster. Personally, I haven't found a solution to the problem. I ended up using my old analog camcorder (TRV2000E) for the Hi8 playback and the 460E as the analog/digital passthrough device. Rather like how you digitized your VHS tapes. What is interesting is, you say you had the same issue when digitizing VHS via the 720E. I had no such issue when digitizing analog sources via my 460E.
For a while, I thought about buying an early but higher-end Digital8 model like the 720E, 530E, etc. to digitize my Hi8 tapes but now I see that some of those earlier models are plagued by the same issue that my 460E is suffering from.
So maybe these camcorders didn't always have the color issue. Perhaps, like you suggest, it is caused by aging components like dried out or leaky capacitors. I don't know. I remember reading somewhere on the web, that certain other Sony Hi-8 camcorders failed due to aging capacitors.
If I ever find a solution, I will post it here.
thank you for your quick answer.
It seems that your faulty cam and mine, put together, would result in one fine working cam/dv8/hi8-Player/converter
It's a shame that those yesterday expensive pieces are so faulty. Besides, mine (bought on the bay) has a warranty. So I have the chance to get my money back or to get another camera. Sometimes it is better to buy from traders than private.
The used cam cdid cost me as much as a good Firewire frame grabber (or more), but less than a used JVC HR-DVS3 VHS/DV Recorder, which has no Hi8/V8 ability, they are expensive though they are well known for DV-Drive failure.
But I wonder, if anyone had this effect/failure with his/hers Sony Cam, nobody went to a professional Video repair service - if there are remainig ones - at least to hear that a repair is possible but too expensive (or not) ?
And - only a Sony failure ?
I have a Sony TR810E which unfortunately doesn't seem to have a strong enough output for my TV card (black and white picture only, all other devices (MiniDV camera, VHS recorder, DSLR) connected to the TV card give a nice color image, and the video camera connected to any other device (TV, DVD Recorder, MiniDV camera) works perfectly fine too).
So I tried to connect it to my Panasonic NV-DS38 MiniDV camera, and that via Firewire to my computer... and it has EXACTLY the same issue (plus some weird blocking artifacts once in a while).
I think it's a larger problem affecting many digital video cameras... though I don't know what exactly the problem is. The video looks fine on the screen of the MiniDV camera...
While Googling on DV chroma I stumbled on this thread and though it is indeed a bit old I guess it still is of interest for many . Now and in the future.
That is like many I recently had to make the good choice for getting some 50 analog video8/Hi8 tapes to a PC format for edit.
Having read here and there I finally purchased a Sony D8 camcorder DCR-TRV230E. Mint condition.
It was not my first option as I would prefer avoiding the DV codec for lossless interlaced YUV 4:2:2 (magicYUV)
The 422 option being favoured having chroma correction in mind when editing , nothing more ; since in the end the final output (H264) will be 420 anyway ...
Some loudspeaking folks at 'Lerepaire' ( top French video site) said they had done all kind of tests using Pro Decks, Pro range TBC , etc.. and that in the end the D8 option IS the (their) best option. Period.
I still doubt it but it was such an easy solution and workflow getting straight to DV.avi, so I did that.
And now I read this thread which points exactly the same green/pink bar artefact I get from my Sony D8 transcode !
It seems quite sure it is an artefact that *any* D8 will produce , thus I doubt it has to do with some mechanical tape transport issue for instance.
Moreover as mentionned in the thread the full size image playing via the D8 mini-LCD monitor is always free from green/pink bar artefact.
All we know yet for sure is that it looks like a pure 8/Hi8 tape playback issue ( no bar from camera output in DV format)
Otherwise I tried to guess some clue for supposedly better results from a D8 transcoding vs an Hi8 Pro player + Pro TBC, and I found no better explanation that the D8 can transcode in full range component format while Hi8 camcorder+TBC will only act in degraded Composite format ( S-Video) . My 2 cts here ...
So it could be that the inner gain of D8 transcode is acting in component format (?) . Otherwise I see NO reason why a D8 can equal or outperform a high grade Hi8 deck (or camcorder) with an added Pro grade TBC taking care of the output signal.
This is where I now have to disagree a bit with the marked preference (in the thread) for the TR2000E output vs 460E/D8.
It is almost obvious at first glance that we compare video excerpts (flamingos) , or any given frame of it , that do have different gamma , different saturation , different contrast.
It immediatly shows in the pink flamingos where the TR2000 image (as displayed ) simply fades to black all the upper part of the background vegetation. And as Jagabo pointed out the TR2000 capture also provides more color saturation . Therefore the D8 image while it does obviously show much more clearly the details of background vegetation it still looses (visually) some chroma depth due to an obvious difference in gamma range . Even whites are 'more white'. So could it be here simply a gamma matter in the first place ?
Quite possibly a more precise comparison would have to set for a good A/B balance on gamma/saturation here and then quite possibly both images would be very close . With a possible drawback in the D8 image related to some residual effect of built-in filtering ( it looks like some subtle added sharpen/contrast) . But ALL that is quite manageable once it gets to the edit timeline.
Assuming this , then yes TR2000 is here a possible better choice since it does not show the green/pink bar artefact ! Still I am not quite sure that a simple camcorder ( with no TBC behind) can remain as free of time base jitter and other various artefacts as a D8 , this in the long run , considering the capture of 50 hours. The D8 proved quite good at repetitive stable capture even given with its 'mini-TBC' . I have some 28 years video8 tapes which proved even free of any scrambled bottom lines ! quite a surprise
This is where I am still left thinking in 2016 about what would be the final result of a good player deck (or even a good camcorder) feeding a pro grade TBC (?) ; be it in the limited S-Video format .
ps : sorry for my poor (long time ago college) English and of course for this quite loooong post ......
ps2 : (BTW I have opted for 70 Mbits (D1 resolution here) Cineform as the intermediate codec after QTGMC deinterlace since it shuffles the cards again from the (mjpeg) DV capture through wavelet in 10bit 4:2:2 ) .
To add some info, when digitizing Video8 tapes my Sony D8 DCR-TRV320E had the same edge color issue.
Many thanks to you in the first place for starting this most interesting thread with very precise elements.
As, indeed, it looks like many (if not everyone) have encountered the color edge issues using D8 transcoding.
This had never been mentionned in 'lerepaire' site, otherwise a good French site with many knowledgeable members.
I now find this even questionning (from these lerepaire forum 'specialists' )since --any-- D8 transcode suffers from these artefacts....
these are quite strange , not being strictly 8 pixel wide , though quite close to.
That is there can be 1 or 2 (or even rarely 3) edges color issues bands roughly 8 pix wide each , thus up to ..a possible 24 pixel wide band issue ! It then becomes a real problem. "luckily"most of the time it stays as 8 pixel , or so
The real bonus of the D8 transcode seems ( if I am not wrong) to have access to a straight inner component transcode process ,
rather that the usual composite output solution ( via S-video output of a camcorder, deck player )
otherwise some high-end Sony camcorders and deck players also provide with built-in mini-TBC and Chroma noise filtering.
But in 2016 it is quite more difficult to get such one 'amateur range' equipment in true mint condition , as compared to the more recent D8's.
As for the Sony Hi8 EVO pro range of equipment , they often have been ....over used as it is just too normal for a pro purpose equipment ! so it is too much of an expensive gamble to look after...
while sometimes we are also ready to spend much for these family-memory tapes to grasp the very last minor enhancement , anticipating to now have to watch these on 50" (and more) TV sets.
For instance my early D8 tapes were shot on one of the best camcorder at that time (>2000€) , a Canon VME2 which featured ....a 220k mono CCD sensor !! Then if we add the very narrow color PAL standard (sub)carrier , it is quite a little miracle to me to still get some quality in the end . Luckily opticals were top notch (as an amateur camcorder indeed) which helped a lot
Last edited by kerryann; 20th Jan 2016 at 08:49.
that's a very interesting point ! very weird then
now I have no evidence either that any PAL D8 does produce these artefacts , just that they are present in yet quite a few D8 models.
Does it mean that all units among these various models will produce the artefacts remains indeed more a question .
We have to wait for a PAL D8 user that would claim for no problem , and this would turn even more tricky !
As this PAL vs NTSC distingo is yet quite questioning ...
I can testify to the general consensus that this is a problem with probably any European Sony Digital8 Camcorder.
I bought a DCR-TRV345E, and although it's replay quality is much better than the recordings of my previous camcorder, CCD-TR45E, it creates this miscolored edge on the right side of the overscan area.
I can also tell you that there is no such thing to be found when using that camcorder to record on a Digital8 tape and then playing it back, it only occurs on any Video8/Hi8 tape that I put in it.
On a solution: I've tried to wrap my head around this issue for the whole day yesterday, learning back how to use Avisynth from scratch again, splitting the video output into its YUV channels for fixing, but just like jagabo previously said in this thread, it's near impossible to get a perfect result. It hurts my head so much, since I specifically bought this cam to replace my old one in terms of quality, TBC, DNR and so on.
The "best" solution that I have come up with right now is to record the tapes twice, once in the TRV345E and once in the TR45E, and then to mask overlay the edge of the chroma channel from the good recording onto the miscolored one. That is, if both recordings are even running the same frames
Somehow I find comfort in learning from this thread that Digital8 was the best option to digitize Video8 quality wise. Because I've used a Sony PAL camcorder, too and like others assumed it was in the original recording already, just in the overscan area. With todays 16:9 TVs I am happy to crop off head switching noise at the bottom, but the sides are somewhat "precious". The idea with extrapolating the last good chroma pixels outwards was good. I'll try that as it is always better than having red cars or jackets turn green.
Just a small addition, DCR-TRV120E PAL, used for Video 8 and Hi8 tapes transfer to PC via S-video. The green bar to the right is there.
But not all the time, depends on the background colour.
Last edited by kodec; 10th Feb 2019 at 09:06.