Need authoring help picking up where "PAL DVD to NTSC DVD guide" left off

[EmmB]

Honestly folks, I've already spent more than a week trying to figure out how to do this properly on my own, but I now just have to accept that I've simply exceeded my competency level!

After scouring the web for comprehensible guides on converting a PAL DVD to an NTSC DVD, I was delighted to find FulciLives wonderfully written: How to convert a PAL DVD to a NTSC DVD using TMPGEnc Plus 2.5x right here on this blessed board. Hooray for FulciLives!

Unfortunately, that guide only covers the first half of the job. At the end of his guide, the author wrote:

At this point you have a finished fully converted to NTSC video file (the "movie.m2v.pulldown.mwv" file) and your audio file(s).

You are now ready to throw it all together into your DVD authoring software.

That of course is another guide ...

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

To be sure, I roundly applaud all the magnificent generosity and brilliance of all those remarkable developers out there who have lovingly crafted what seems like thousands of audio/video tools and then so magnanimously offer them to all and sundry with no charge! Those folks are heroes, one and all. But their gifts, as generous as they are, are also extremely powerful tools with untold thousands of different permutations of parameters and other settings, and as such it's obvious that their intended audience of users are already experts and geniuses, and so ordinary saps like me are doomed to wander the wildernesses of the Web helplessly begging for the balm of Gilead from commercial software designed for subgeniuses like myself.

So when I tried to continue from where Mr. Coleman's guide left off, I thought: "Okay, I can do this!" I already own more commercial DVD authoring software than the average self-respecting Sally or Sam should have, including (in alphabetical order):

ACDSee Video Converter 3 PRO
Arcsoft Media Converter 4 Platinum
Arcsoft Media Converter 7
Arcsoft TotalMedia Extreme with Total Media Theatre 3 platinum
Corel VideoStudio Pro X3
Corel VideoStudio Pro X4
Corel VideoStudio Pro X5 Ultimate
Corel VideoStudio X2 Pro
DVDFab 8 (some but not all components)
DVDRemake Pro v3.6
Movavi VideoSuite 7
Nero 12 Platinum
Pinnacle Studio 12 Pro Ultimate
Ulead MediaStudio Pro 8

... along with so many others that I can't even remember them all. But can any of them pick up the authoring half of the task after FulciLives's guide leaves off? Who knows?

Any of them would work to create the actual DVD, but only after I somehow synch the video (NTSC frame-rate-adjusted, 720x480 mv2 file) and audio (.ac3 2-channel 49ms-delayed) back together. For this part, I tried the freeware Muxman v0.16.8, but just as it always has done since I started trying to use it back in 2007, Muxman's allegedly "synchronized" output was utterly unacceptable! Why? The audio was not out of synch by mere milliseconds, but actually by several entire minutes instead! Back in 2007, Muxman's author told me: "You didn't actually expect the output to be synchronized, did you?" I guess I thought that by 2013 it would actually do that, but apparently not (at least not the freeware version).

I'd accept full blame for "idiot-user syndrome" if the audio and video files actually were minutes out of synch in the first place, but when I play the two files separately in VLC they both start effectively immediately, with the exception that the video file has approximately 10-20 milliseconds worth of a still image of the menu page at the start (but there could also be a 10-20 millisecond pause before the music starts in the audio file as well). But again, we're talking about several minutes out of synch here, not milliseconds!

So I searched here and many other sites for a tool that would actually synch the files, and after looking at roughly 40-50 of them, I found one that looked simple enough for a tiny-brain like myself: DVDAuthorGUI. Here's what happened when I tried it:

DVDAuthorGUI 1.029 - 7/15/2011
. . .

++ WARN: [mplex.exe] Stream e0: data will arrive too late sent(SCR)=9069 required(DTS)=9009
++ WARN: [mplex.exe] Video e0: buf= 123512 frame=000000 sector=00000061
++ WARN: [mplex.exe] Audio bd: buf= 0 frame=000000 sector=00000000

. . .

**ERROR: [mplex.exe] MUX STATUS: Frame data under-runs detected!

Process aborted due to above error
There was an unknown error. Please review the log for more information.

"Okay," I thought, "I'll look that up and see how to deal with it." Here's what I found right here at VideoHelp - GUI for DVDAuthor buffer under-run error - Reply from borax:

"That's an old and known error of the multiplex program (mplex) used by the dvdauthor package (if dvdauthor is selected as engine). If your streams are 100% DVD compliant just use Muxman as engine, then it should be ok."

So according to this, the total failure I had with Muxman's terrible synch problem was to make sure that DVDAuthorGUI is set to use Muxman!

And if that weren't brain-destroying enough, I couldn't even figure out how to set DVDAuthorGUI to use the miserable Muxman! When I select Tools -> "Use Alternate Muxer" in DVDAuthorGUI, the only two items in the list are: "tcmplex" or "ffmpeg", no choice to use "muxman" anywhere!


So that's it, folks. My bwain hurts! I'm on my knees in surrender, begging for help: How do I pick up where FulciLives's "How to convert a PAL DVD to a NTSC DVD using TMPGEnc Plus 2.5x" left off, using either anything in the list of commercial apps I already own -or- with another easy to use guide (ideally with easy to use software)?



p.s.: Please don't suggest I use or buy a DVD player that can play PAL DVDs. I know it's the "easiest" way, but this is the ONE and ONLY time I'm EVER going to have to convert a PAL DVD -- which I bought as a gift for my Dad who's been looking for this old movie for decades already -- to an NTSC DVD playable in a standalone DVD player. Thanks for your indulgence!

[manono]

A whole lot of words you used. So, if you encoded it for 25fps and then used DGPulldown set for 25->29.97fps as in the guide, the output video is exactly the same length as the source. So the untouched audio should remain in synch. You say it's off by minutes? It's (roughly) in synch at the beginning and then by the end it's minutes off? Maybe 4 minutes for a 100 minute long video? If so you didn't follow the guide.

I guess I thought that by 2013 it would actually do that, but apparently not (at least not the freeware version).

Don't blame Muxman for your own screwups. I've used it probably several thousand times with no problems.

...but when I play the two files separately in VLC they both start effectively immediately, with the exception that the video file has approximately 10-20 milliseconds worth of a still image of the menu page at the start (but there could also be a 10-20 millisecond pause before the music starts in the audio file as well).

What's that mean? You didn't encode the menu as part of the movie, did you?

[jman98]

The existence of this thread is why I tell people that they could just buy a player that can be made region free and not have to fool with all this PAL
<->NTSC conversion nonsense. Best Buy still sells the Philips DVP3680 and we have a hack listed for it under our DVD Players section that is reported to still work.

I've also used Muxman before with no problems, but then again, I don't do PAL <-> NTSC conversions because I think it's foolish to not just get a player that can handle this for you.

[hech54]

Honestly folks, I've already spent more than a week trying to figure out how to do this properly on my own, but I now just have to accept that I've simply exceeded my competency level!

Then stop doing it. It is a very difficult waste of time and results (if you get them) are garbage.

[manono]

...and results (if you get them) are garbage.

Not if you do it right, and FulciLives' guide is one way to do it right. The results aren't any worse than reencoding an NTSC movie to NTSC, or a PAL movie to PAL, and just shrinking it to fit a DVD5.

I think EmmB just messed up on something very basic (like maybe encoding the menu into the movie?) which keeps him (her?) from succeeding. If I'm not mistaken, Avs2DVD can also make a proper conversion from PAL to NTSC.

Converting NTSC<->PAL is quite simple. It converting menus that's hard.

[theewizard]

i was going to suggest copying/ripping the main movie to one large vob or mp4 file then using avs2dvd to create a NEW nstc dvd

create a new menu/chapter structure in avs2dvd

unless you must have the original menus and "EXTRAS" a main movie conversion offers the best chance of getting it right with a minimum of steps

[EmmB]

A whole lot of words you used.

You say I used a whole lot of words, but apparently I needed even more, given the rather puzzling (and occasionally sour) replies here.

So, if you encoded it for 25fps and then used DGPulldown set for 25->29.97fps as in the guide, the output video is exactly the same length as the source. So the untouched audio should remain in synch. You say it's off by minutes? It's (roughly) in synch at the beginning and then by the end it's minutes off? Maybe 4 minutes for a 100 minute long video? If so you didn't follow the guide.

Of course, I followed the guide! And I never even hinted that the synch problems only showed up later or that there was a mismatch in the data lengths of the two files. Both the video and the audio I had produced by the end of FulciLives's guide have the same duration, and they both start immediately when played separately. That was made clear in my OP.

Allow me quote myself from the OP:

I'd accept full blame for "idiot-user syndrome" if the audio and video files actually were minutes out of synch in the first place, but when I play the two files separately in VLC they both start effectively immediately, with the exception that the video file has approximately 10-20 milliseconds worth of a still image of the menu page at the start (but there could also be a 10-20 millisecond pause before the music starts in the audio file as well). But again, we're talking about several minutes out of synch here, not milliseconds!

The problem is that after running those two files through Muxman, the multiplexed output was whole minutes out of synch immediately from the get go. Even just the very first seconds of dialog which showed a person moving his lips, the matching audio of his words came several minutes later. I fully understand that logically, such a thing should never have happened, but there it was. This latest example of Muxman's output showed exactly the same major synch discrepancies that it did back in 2007, when its author answered my complaint by stating that I was asking too much for Muxman to accurately synch audio and video. I don't know why this happens; perhaps Muxman is working perfectly and instead there's some codec or other system file that's messed up on my computer (though SFC says all is well).

I guess I thought that by 2013 it would actually do that, but apparently not (at least not the freeware version).

Don't blame Muxman for your own screwups. I've used it probably several thousand times with no problems.

Look, blame me all you want. I'd be happy to take it, if only you or someone else would actually answer my OP.

...but when I play the two files separately in VLC they both start effectively immediately, with the exception that the video file has approximately 10-20 milliseconds worth of a still image of the menu page at the start (but there could also be a 10-20 millisecond pause before the music starts in the audio file as well).

What's that mean? You didn't encode the menu as part of the movie, did you?

FulciLives' Guide told me to choose only the VOB files from the main movie, which is exactly what I did. The menus were in a separate VOB, which I did NOT include in any process. In this instance, there happened to be a still frame or three immediately at the start which matched the cover photo, but it lasted just a tiny few milliseconds, so I can't explain why the Muxman output was so badly out of synch.



So, with respect, I don't see the need to be repeatedly punished and dragged over the coals over what's already done. Instead, might you or someone be so kind as to answer my OP: How do I pick up where FulciLives's "How to convert a PAL DVD to a NTSC DVD using TMPGEnc Plus 2.5x" left off, using either anything in the list of commercial apps I already own -or- with another easy to use guide (ideally with easy to use software)?

Thanks.

[EmmB]

The existence of this thread is why I tell people that they could just buy a player that can be made region free and not have to fool with all this PAL
<->NTSC conversion nonsense. Best Buy still sells the Philips DVP3680 and we have a hack listed for it under our DVD Players section that is reported to still work.

To quote from the bottom of my OP:

p.s.: Please don't suggest I use or buy a DVD player that can play PAL DVDs. I know it's the "easiest" way, but this is the ONE and ONLY time I'm EVER going to have to convert a PAL DVD -- which I bought as a gift for my Dad who's been looking for this old movie for decades already -- to an NTSC DVD playable in a standalone DVD player. Thanks for your indulgence!

[smrpix]

p.s.: Please don't suggest I use or buy a DVD player that can play PAL DVDs.

Won't mention it. So, didja have a nice week?

Actually, why don't you download the free trials of TMPGenc Authoring Works or DVD Architect. Not sure if they have watermarks, but it's gotta be better than pounding your head on the wall.

[EmmB]

Thank you, sir manono, for your friendly and gracious reply.

...and results (if you get them) are garbage.

Not if you do it right, and FulciLives' guide is one way to do it right. The results aren't any worse than reencoding an NTSC movie to NTSC, or a PAL movie to PAL, and just shrinking it to fit a DVD5.

I think EmmB just messed up on something very basic (like maybe encoding the menu into the movie?) which keeps him (her?) from succeeding. If I'm not mistaken, Avs2DVD can also make a proper conversion from PAL to NTSC.

Converting NTSC<->PAL is quite simple. It converting menus that's hard.

The only step left that I need help with is properly re-multiplexing and synchronizing the video and audio files. Once that's done, I can easily handle the rest of the DVD creation, including adding menus (if I choose to do that). So I'm going to try theewizard's suggestion to use AVStoDVD.

Thank you.

[EmmB]

i was going to suggest copying/ripping the main movie to one large vob or mp4 file then using avs2dvd to create a NEW nstc dvd

create a new menu/chapter structure in avs2dvd

unless you must have the original menus and "EXTRAS" a main movie conversion offers the best chance of getting it right with a minimum of steps

Thanks, theewizard! I'll try that!

[EmmB]

p.s.: Please don't suggest I use or buy a DVD player that can play PAL DVDs.

Won't mention it. So, didja have a nice week?

Actually, why don't you download the free trials of TMPGenc Authoring Works or DVD Architect. Not sure if they have watermarks, but it's gotta be better than pounding your head on the wall.

Thank you also, smrpix, for your suggestions. I'll try to learn if they leave watermarks.

By the way, I had a miserable week. Thanks for asking!

[manono]

Both the video and the audio I had produced by the end of FulciLives's guide have the same duration...

If that were true then there wouldn't be out of synch audio after authoring. And how do you know that anyway? You can't get the length of an M2V by playing it. My guess is that the length VLC is showing is that of the audio alone. Do you somehow think Muxman ruins the synch? I'll try again. Is the asynch (the delay) constant (out of synch by the same amount all the way through)? If so use DelayCut to remove the delay and reauthor. Or is it progressive (gets worse as the movie goes along). I'm talking about the one you authored using Muxman, not the one played using VLC player.

But I think your problem goes deeper than that and you've included something besides just the movie.

Now, the FulciLives method can be responsible for a major screwup (a screwup resulting in your problem) if there's more than a single PGC in the VOBs with the movie. He says to open all the VOBs in DGIndex but that won't work (or won't work well) if there's something in there besides just the movie. You mention:

In this instance, there happened to be a still frame or three immediately at the start which matched the cover photo, but it lasted just a tiny few milliseconds, so I can't explain why the Muxman output was so badly out of synch.

I can.

OK, when you wrote before I thought maybe this was a menu. Maybe it's a logo or something. But it's not an actual part of the movie is it? Do me a favor. Open the IFO for the VTS with your movie in PGCDemux and use the drop-down box to check if there's more than just the movie in this thing. If there is, demux the video, audio, celltimes.txt and subs (if any) for the movie alone and start all over again. Because you saw a still picture or two lasting milliseconds. But , of course, when played as part of the original DVD they last much longer than that. They may be something that plays before the movie starts. Or something that plays before the menu. They could be anything but my point is that they don't play for milliseconds and maybe they have audio associated with them (it could even be silent audio) that plays for much longer. It's that audio you're getting that's throwing your movie way out of synch, is my thinking.

Also, out of synch results can come from an improper decrypt. If this is a newish DVD using newish anti-copy protection, that might also account for it.