Replacing DVD Video, but it´s differently Converted (NTCS,PAL).

[zerowalker]

Okay, so i got a recorded version of an Episode.
And a DVD version of the Same.

One is PAL (the recorded) the other is NTSC. 29.970 i think.

But the Recorded have a different language(hence why i want to use the DVD picture), is is also a bit faster or slower.
I think it´s cause of the NTSC to PAL convertion.

I thought i would be able to solve it with ease, but i was wrong.

So i wonder if anyone here can help.

If you want, i can upload a clip from the same scenes.

[zerowalker]

I think i may have solved it. I used indexing on the Video_TS, then TFM and TDecimate to make it 23.976.
After that it seems to be synced, atleast when i played around a bit.

[zerowalker]

Okay, now i wonder, is there a way to convert NTSC 23.976 to PAL?
I read about many different ways, but wonder if there is a simple, like ChangeFPS(25) (wich didn´t work, it went slower i think;S)

I don´t want to change the speed of the video, just add a Frame per sec.

Thanks

[manono]

but wonder if there is a simple, like ChangeFPS(25) (wich didn´t work, it went slower i think;S)

ChangeFPS(25) doesn't make it run slower. In fact, it keeps it exactly the same length by adding a frame every second, exactly what you asked for..

But better for your purposes would be to encode at 720x576 and progressive 23.976fps. Afterwards run DGPulldown set for 23.976->25.000fps to make it true PAL.

[zerowalker]

Well, it didn´t seem to work, when i checked with the other file (Stackehorizontal). though the other file was 24.999 for some reason;S

But that seems to be what i want.

Should i deinterlace before or during play?

Edit: Well deinterlacing doesn´t seem to work during play. Is it because it was changed to 23.976 from 29.970?

[manono]

Should i deinterlace before or during play?

What? If you performed an IVTC on it to make it 23.976fps, it should be progressive already. I'm assuming the original source was an NTSC DVD of a movie. And then after the IVTC you converted it to PAL following my instructions.

...though the other file was 24.999 for some reason

Add an AssumeFPS(25) to it. I doubt it's really 24.999fps.

[zerowalker]

It´s not really progressive, not all the time, it´s some Interlacing here and there at small areas. Like when someone is standing still talking, his mouth can become interlaced.

Okay, well yeah doubt it as well, must be a bug from when i clipped it or something.

[manono]

It´s not really progressive, not all the time, it´s some Interlacing here and there at small areas. Like when someone is standing still talking, his mouth can become interlaced.

Oh, anime. Great. Either tweak the TFM settings to make them more sensitive to interlacing or add Vinverse afterwards to pick up any leftover interlacing.

[zerowalker]

Yepp, Thanks will try it

[manono]

A good thing to try is lowering the CThresh a bit. From the TFM manual:

cthresh -

This is the area combing threshold used for combed frame detection. It is like
dthresh or dthreshold in telecide() and fielddeinterlace(). This essentially
controls how "strong" or "visible" combing must be to be detected. Larger values
mean combing must be more visible and smaller values mean combing can be less
visible or strong and still be detected. Valid settings are from -1 (every pixel
will be detected as combed) to 255 (no pixel will be detected as combed). This
is basically a pixel difference value. A good range is between 8 to 12.

Default: 9 (int)

So, try 8, or maybe 7 as a last resort before just throwing Vinverse in there. You can check to make sure 'good' frames don't get deinterlaced at the same time by putting on 'Display=True'.

[zerowalker]

Okay, think i got it to work. I played around a bit, it seems that Chroma=True did alot of help.

But i have a fast question i have wondered about for some time now.

If a video is Interlaced, and some parts are not Full Interlaced while others are.

What is the best way to approach it?

I usually goes with QTGMC() SelectEven/odd().

But that will ruin the parts where it´s fully interlaced, as it will skip every other frame right?

And if i just use QTGMC(), i get 50/60 fps at all time, but that will be a waste on parts that aren´t fully interlaced i think.

[manono]

You're still talking about anime? I doubt I've seen (and doubt there exists) any anime that's fully interlaced in parts unless it's end credits or unless it's field-blended. If it's a movie, again, no such thing.

[zerowalker]

Sorry, should have been more specific.

I am talking about, different parts.

Well for example, in a VHS tape, i got,

First a Cartoon, then a non-Cartoon (which seems to be fully interlaced).

So the cartoon is interlaced (doubt it´s fully, see no reason for it), and the non-cartoon is Fully.

[sanlyn]

http://neuron2.net/faq.html

[zerowalker]

From what, i would say it´s shifting from, the cartoon which is Interlaced, but not Pure. And then later on changing to Pure Interlaced.

[sanlyn]

OK, then I'll repeat:
How to determine field order, interlace, telecine, etc.: http://neuron2.net/faq.html .
The cartoon is likely from film or is progressive+pulldown, so is probably telecined. The non-cartoon is probably straight interlaced. Check the link to see how to view video to analyze it.

[zerowalker]

Okay, can say that i ended up using AnimeIVTC, as the name says, it´s for Animé, and does the jobb very well.

And sanlyn, i still don´t get how i am supposed to work with such videos?

Cause the Cartoon, as you say, is just 25 fps (or 23.976 on NTSC). And the Real World stuff, is 50 fps (60 for NTSC).

There is an intro i will have to capture to show it, where they use Real stuff and Cartoon, and the Cartoon looks good, but the Real stuff become, unsmooth.

Well, i can just upload it here to show it.

Sorry for making it MKV, but didn´t find a way to remove the Audio from an MPG file, so used Mkvmerge to remove it.

[smrpix]

This is diagnostic, not prescriptive.

What you have here is a tape that started life as NTSC 29.97 master incorporating live action and animated film elements (probably 24fps film), some 3d elements too -- but it was, as I said, almost certainly mastered at 29.97. Before it came to you, someone converted it to PAL in some (likely) 80's era way. So your tape is a PAL version of an NTSC show with mixed elements.

You are essentially facing the same reconstruction task as Star Trek TNG, but with a VHS PAL generation thrown in to make it interesting.

How far are you willing to go to tease these elements apart, because you can't do it in a single pass?

I personally wouldn't spend my time attempting this, but I hope the diagnosis can be helpful.

[sanlyn]

And sanlyn, i still don´t get how i am supposed to work with such videos?

Neuron2's FAQ sheet seems petty clear to me. But you have to know how to use SeparateFields() and how to use the control buttons in VirtualDub to view frame-by-frame, one frame at a time.

Cause the Cartoon, as you say, is just 25 fps (or 23.976 on NTSC). And the Real World stuff, is 50 fps (60 for NTSC).

There is an intro i will have to capture to show it, where they use Real stuff and Cartoon, and the Cartoon looks good, but the Real stuff become, unsmooth.

Well, i can just upload it here to show it.

Sorry for making it MKV, but didn´t find a way to remove the Audio from an MPG file, so used Mkvmerge to remove it.[/QUOTE]
I have no idea where you get those frame rates. Your mkv contains an MPEG2 at 50 frames per second (originally 25 FPS) interlaced. Can't tell much of anything from your mkv sample because it appears the frame rate has been changed (or whatever you did, I can't tell). It's not unusual for a video to contain a mix of progressive, film-based telecine, and interlaced material. But what happened between the source and the mkv is anyone's guess.

IF the source is MPEG, you can extract the video as .m2v using the DGindex utility from DGMPGDec. You've used it before, so I don't know what the problem is to get a short MPEG2 video clip from your source.

[manono]

Sorry for making it MKV,

You should be.

but didn´t find a way to remove the Audio from an MPG file, so used Mkvmerge to remove it.

Open it in DGIndex and use [ and ] to trim off a piece. Then File->Save Project and Demux Video. The resulting M2V can be uploaded.

It's field blended from an NTSC source, The animation is a mess and I can't fully unblend it because so many frames don't have any clean fields at all. The live action stuff does better:

AssumeFPS(25)
Yadif(Mode=1)
SRestore()

[zerowalker]

Well it´s pretty clear yes.
But i don´t know how to handle it.
Am i supposed to let for example. QTGMC make it fully progressive, even when there are just some parts that are 50fps, or should i let it remain as Interlaced?

Cause normally i use QTMGC() with SelectEven().

But here is the M2V file, thanks for telling me how to do it.

And well, can say that all these cartoons (Captain N, Zelda etc) are totally blended, both the NTSC and PAL, but PAL is probably worse. Or the same, depends if they just speeded it up to PAL speed or added frames ant stuff i guess.

[manono]

Now I don't know if it's really supposed to be 25fps or not. Sometimes I think that looks better, with fewer frame-jumps. If so, it would be like this:

Yadif(Mode=1)#or QTGMC
SRestore(Frate=25)

...even when there are just some parts that are 50fps

That would mean some was shot on video. Is the live action native PAL? But it has blends and duplicate frames too. Where's this video from? So only the animation stuff is converted from NTSC?

...or should i let it remain as Interlaced?

If for DVD, that's one alternative - leave it alone. And seeing how messed up this thing is, I think I might do it that way myself if it were mine and I lived in a PAL country.

[zerowalker]

Both the cartoon and live are convertet from NTSC to PAL.

So i can´t really use SRestore to get 25, as that would ruin the Live part right?

And it´s "overkill" to make everything 50fps, as the Cartoon is just 25.

The only thing i can make out of it, is to let the Player Deinterlace.

What are the suggestions then if i wanted to work with it in Avisynth?

(No need for filtering and scripts, just want to know if i am supposed to temporarily deinterlace it and then clean it up and stuff like that=

[manono]

So i can´t really use SRestore to get 25, as that would ruin the Live part right?

Well, you can. The result will be like any time you do a single-rate deinterlace of interlaced video. Maybe a bit jumpier than the original interlaced video, or jumpier than if bobbing it.

What are the suggestions then if i wanted to work with it in Avisynth?

Suggestions for what? For filtering if the filters aren't interlace-aware? You bob it, filter it, and then reinterlace it.

[zerowalker]

So, i can just use Bob(), then clean it as with any Progressive material. Then reinterlace as if nothing has changed?
Is that the way to go?

Thanks, really helps.

[manono]

So, i can just use Bob(), then clean it as with any Progressive material.

That's a good question and I don't really know the answer. If you're not changing the field order I think it's OK to use. But I use Yadif anyway. It's nearly as fast and also the top field remains unchanged except for the filtering done (which may also be true for Bob).

Yadif(Mode=1)
Filter
FilterSomeMore
AssumeTFF()#if TFF
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()

[sanlyn]

I wonder why these are being converted NTSC to PAL. Don't European players handle NTSC? There are USA players that can handle both.

[zerowalker]

Is Yadif mode 1, making it 50p?
cause i always use QTGMC().

And well, hmm, has anyone done this before and can give some clue to what should be working?

As i guess you manono hasn´t done it, as you also are unsure.

I wonder why these are being converted NTSC to PAL. Don't European players handle NTSC? There are USA players that can handle both.

Well, we are talking about VCR stuff here, they went compatible with each others a few years later i think, though they use some special modes, which aren´t what you really want to use for capture i think.

If you are talking about DVD, then the PAL speed convertion is just totally worthless really, i have no idéa why they do it, they can just add frames like they could on the VCR but didn´t most of the time, and i think they could have used NTSC as i think DVDs are supposed to be compatible with each other, except for regions.

The only really nice thing about PAL is the extra resolution, it´s quite a bit from NTSC, but sadly all the trouble with framerate conversions doesn´t make up for it.

[manono]

Is Yadif mode 1, making it 50p?

Yadif(Mode=1) is its bob mode and doubles the original framerate.

cause i always use QTGMC().

QTGMC is a bobber.

As i guess you manono hasn´t done it, as you also are unsure.

Haven't done what? Ever used a bobber? I've probably bobbed video more times than you will in your entire life. What I was unsure about was if AviSynth's Bob filter, when separated back into fields and reinterlaced, returned the fields unchanged. And I said I think it does return the top field unchanged (except for whatever filtering has been done). It's the bottom field that gets interpolated badly in the basic Bob. Gavino (and others) will know. I think he's even corrected me on some point or other sometime in the past.

[zerowalker]

[QUOTE=manono;2225630]

Haven't done what? Ever used a bobber? I've probably bobbed video more times than you will in your entire life. What I was unsure about was if AviSynth's Bob filter, when separated back into fields and reinterlaced, returned the fields unchanged. And I said I think it does return the top field unchanged (except for whatever filtering has been done). It's the bottom field that gets interpolated badly in the basic Bob. Gavino (and others) will know. I think he's even corrected me on some point or other sometime in the past.

Well that´s the problem, i am not talking about using a bobber, cause i didn´t suspect that you had ever used one, it´s not uncommon.
But, the thing about how to filter a video that is both pure interlaced and not.

As you said you are unsure if the fields are unchanged when using bob().

But i don´t see the reason why Yadif would be different. QTGMC() on the other hand does filtering on it´s own, and isn´t direct approach to make it 50p just for cleaning up.

Or maybe i am just mistaking what you are saying though, if so i am sorry.