VideoHelp Forum
Closed Thread
Page 3 of 17
FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 13 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 498
Thread
  1. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by rronald_25 View Post
    Then I guess theres a chance I cant play of all sony pictures release?
    That is right. There is a chance you can't play anything in recent years from Sony Pictures now.

    However, the point of Sony doing this is to send you the message that you need to BUY those movies instead of downloading them at no cost. If you buy the movies on DVD or BD, they will play fine on your player.

    Cinavia uses an audio watermark and it's known to survive re-encoding to other audio formats.

    Finally, if you use a media player like a Western Digital or similar device to play your MKV files, those players are not licensed to support BluRay format so they do not implement support for Cinavia. Your files will play fine on those devices.

  2. Originally Posted by amitabhbansal View Post
    so if someone know the procedure to remove this protection please help me
    Thanks
    Currently there is only one and very crude way to remove Cinavia: sox -lowpass 7000 (or any software lowpass filter around 7kHz)

  3. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    pandy - Does that mean it throws away all the audio BELOW 7000? That's well within the normal range of human hearing. I thought that Cinavia was using audio ABOVE the normal range of human hearing, but it looks like I'm wrong. That's a pretty extreme solution, but as you say it's a crude way to do it.

    As I've stated before, at present it seems that the only solution to Cinavia is going to require the audio to be re-encoded in a lossy format. Purists are going to hate that.

  4. lowpass = pass low frequencies, eliminate high frequencies

    Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    As I've stated before, at present it seems that the only solution to Cinavia is going to require the audio to be re-encoded in a lossy format. Purists are going to hate that.
    More than they hate having no audio at all?

  5. Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    pandy - Does that mean it throws away all the audio BELOW 7000? That's well within the normal range of human hearing. I thought that Cinavia was using audio ABOVE the normal range of human hearing, but it looks like I'm wrong. That's a pretty extreme solution, but as you say it's a crude way to do it.

    As I've stated before, at present it seems that the only solution to Cinavia is going to require the audio to be re-encoded in a lossy format. Purists are going to hate that.
    ALL but over 7000 and up. Perhaps it can be slightly higher than 7kHz - perhaps somewhere 8 - 9kHz but still this is very crude i agree - however until Cinavia problems can be solved perhaps some Spectral Band Replication techniques can be used to at least to restore perceived/subjectively better quality for such low passed audio.
    Removing Cinavia imply creation of the Cinavia detector - if you can detect Cinavia then you can remove Cinavia without destroying audio by compensating phase changes made during embedding Cinavia. This is key to obey Cinavia - Cinavia detection.

    yeah, purist watching screeners and listen audio recorded from a portable microphone...
    Last edited by pandy; 2nd May 2013 at 11:21.

  6. Member Seeker47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    drifting, somewhere on the Sea of Cynicism
    Search Comp PM
    Just out of curiosity: Is Sony bothering to put Cinavia on its more recent movies when they are shown on cable / sat., in particular on the premium movie channels ?

    For awhile there, I was getting the Sony Movie Channel as a promotional freebie. Later, they completely trashed it via the addition of many commercials -- a la what happened to IFC, and more recently to Fox Movie Channel -- causing me to cross these off the list as anything I would ever want to watch. This is even worse for recording purposes (greatly diminished prospects that films are complete and without content-related cuts), so the fact that we may now have some better recording options available counts for naught.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.

  7. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    jagabo - You know how it is. If only we get paid for every time we get some newbie asking how to re-encode with ZERO quality loss. Those people are going to bitch at this "solution" for Cinavia.

    Thanks for the explanation on what "low pass" meant, pandy and jagabo. I appreciate that. Damn, that is pretty severe though. Bye bye high end.

    Seeker47 - I don't think we know. But nothing Sony does surprises me any more so I wouldn't rule it out.

  8. I'm not a sound expert, but from what I read about cinavia watermarking, it tries to locate markers (series of sounds that match their recognition algorithm, followed by some id data) in the sound track. These markers can be removed by filtering out higher frequencies, just like one of the posters said, which then "destroys" audio.

    But wouldn't it be possible to modify each audio frame, by changing sound frequency by random (but not huge) amount, so that cinavia algo won't be able to find markers inside the track, but the sound won't be affected that much?

  9. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    canada
    Search Comp PM
    The latest bios for the sony bdp-s380 has cinavia so if you updated it recently then you are out of luck in watching any backed up movies containing cinavia,best to buy the movies as Baldrick has already said.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.

  10. Originally Posted by ermac0 View Post
    I'm not a sound expert, but from what I read about cinavia watermarking, it tries to locate markers (series of sounds that match their recognition algorithm, followed by some id data) in the sound track. These markers can be removed by filtering out higher frequencies, just like one of the posters said, which then "destroys" audio.

    But wouldn't it be possible to modify each audio frame, by changing sound frequency by random (but not huge) amount, so that cinavia algo won't be able to find markers inside the track, but the sound won't be affected that much?
    Cinavia is based on modification of the phase for audio signal (over 9kHz), phase modifications are around 10 - 20% to prevent audible distortions (human hearing system is usually insensitive for small phase changes). Probably spreading phase (with some random signal) can affect detection of the Cinavia however this should be done in a smart way i.e. based on unique Cinavia characteristic thus as i wrote previously - key to defeat Cinavia is detecting algorithm - if you know how to detect Cinavia then you can also defeat Cinavia.

  11. Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    New Zealand
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    I stumbled across this list of Cinavia protected titles. It's the longest I've seen:

    http://blog.dvdfab.com/cinavia-protection.html
    Interesting. Basically if it's on Sony, it's probably got Cinavia. Warner Brothers seems to be the 2nd greatest user, but they barely use it. I only counted one use by 20th Century Fox, Disney and Universal. Most studios seem unwilling to pay the extra costs for it.
    Nice to know, thanks. I specifically avoid purchasing Sony hardware because of the way they aggressively screw their paying customers over, and Sony CDs for the same reason (*cough* "rootkit" *cough*). Now I know that I have to avoid Sony DVDs and Blu Rays as well. This is one customer for whom this abomination will mean less, not more, purchases of their product. At least they are consistent I guess..............

    I do copy material I own and stuff I record from a subscription I pay for onto my media server. But I don't (and never have) pirated, it just seemed wrong. However, because of this and the other arrogant behaviour of studios I confess that I no longer feel quite the same moral compunction I used to against pirating. Maybe a balanced and reasonable response would be join the herd and download material, but only Sony material?

  12. @pandy: Yeah, knowing the algorithm would make the whole distorting process very easy, but I guess it's guarded well by the corp, and even when they supply it to media software vendors, it's probably as blackbox component without much of the details how it works inside.

    There are some media players for PC that already have cinavia detection mechanism, that could potentially be rev engineered to extract the algorithm. Or maybe the firmware for standalone bluray players could be examined, as it's more likely the code wouldn't be as obscured as in components for PC software.

  13. Member netmask56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by pandy View Post
    Originally Posted by ermac0 View Post
    I'm not a sound expert, but from what I read about cinavia watermarking, it tries to locate markers (series of sounds that match their recognition algorithm, followed by some id data) in the sound track. These markers can be removed by filtering out higher frequencies, just like one of the posters said, which then "destroys" audio.

    But wouldn't it be possible to modify each audio frame, by changing sound frequency by random (but not huge) amount, so that cinavia algo won't be able to find markers inside the track, but the sound won't be affected that much?
    Cinavia is based on modification of the phase for audio signal (over 9kHz), phase modifications are around 10 - 20% to prevent audible distortions (human hearing system is usually insensitive for small phase changes). Probably spreading phase (with some random signal) can affect detection of the Cinavia however this should be done in a smart way i.e. based on unique Cinavia characteristic thus as i wrote previously - key to defeat Cinavia is detecting algorithm - if you know how to detect Cinavia then you can also defeat Cinavia.
    There is an audio plug in suitable for Adobe Audition etc called Sonitus FX used to be a an UltraFunk product but now under the Cakewalk label. It has a phase control section where you can manipulate the phase angle over a very wide range. I have used it on vocal tracks to thwart easy cancellation and removal by the usual L-R method. I wonder if this could be used to manipulate a sountrack infected with Cinavia? Another area to investigate is to get hold of one of the old Sansui QS encoders/decoders with it's program driven dynamic variomatrix circuitry although it was fixed a +/- 45 degrees and in some releases 22.5 degrees ????

    http://www.kvraudio.com/news/cakewalk_sonitus_fx_suite_released_1930
    Last edited by netmask56; 7th May 2013 at 01:26. Reason: added a link
    SONY 75" Full array 200Hz LED TV, Yamaha A1070 amp, Zidoo UHD3000, BeyonWiz PVR V2 (Enigma2 clone), Chromecast, Windows 11 Professional, QNAP NAS TS851

  14. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    canada
    Search Comp PM
    I doubt that it would work since cinavia survives recording through microphones.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.

  15. Member netmask56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by johns0 View Post
    I doubt that it would work since cinavia survives recording through microphones.
    I was thinking more of using it as a research tool to try and establish if the phase change was fixed or variable and then it would be a step closer to finding a solution. I don't think I have any discs with the obnoxious parasite encoding but if I find one or can borrow one from a friend I will pass the audio through my ancient Sansui QS encoder using shuffle phase mode and see what happens...
    SONY 75" Full array 200Hz LED TV, Yamaha A1070 amp, Zidoo UHD3000, BeyonWiz PVR V2 (Enigma2 clone), Chromecast, Windows 11 Professional, QNAP NAS TS851

  16. Originally Posted by ermac0 View Post
    @pandy: Yeah, knowing the algorithm would make the whole distorting process very easy, but I guess it's guarded well by the corp, and even when they supply it to media software vendors, it's probably as blackbox component without much of the details how it works inside.

    There are some media players for PC that already have cinavia detection mechanism, that could potentially be rev engineered to extract the algorithm. Or maybe the firmware for standalone bluray players could be examined, as it's more likely the code wouldn't be as obscured as in components for PC software.
    Cinavia (main principle is patented and "well" documented), ideally will be to find two sound samples - one protected by Cinavia, second not (BD and DVD?) - then do comparison for phase changes (complex FFT, Imaginary part for bins over 8kHz, comparison for short and long term phase changes up to for example +-35 deg - based on Cinavia description this is relatively slow - bellow few (ten/hundreds?) bits per second pseudorandom transmission).

  17. Originally Posted by netmask56 View Post
    There is an audio plug in suitable for Adobe Audition etc called Sonitus FX used to be a an UltraFunk product but now under the Cakewalk label. It has a phase control section where you can manipulate the phase angle over a very wide range. I have used it on vocal tracks to thwart easy cancellation and removal by the usual L-R method. I wonder if this could be used to manipulate a sountrack infected with Cinavia? Another area to investigate is to get hold of one of the old Sansui QS encoders/decoders with it's program driven dynamic variomatrix circuitry although it was fixed a +/- 45 degrees and in some releases 22.5 degrees ????

    http://www.kvraudio.com/news/cakewalk_sonitus_fx_suite_released_1930

    Cinavia use variable, pseudorandom spread spectrum modulation for audio phase (within +-20 - 30deg over 8kHz) - ideally same changes but with opposite sign should be applied to audio signal to nullify Cinavia. As bitrate speed is unknown (between few tens and perhaps less than few hundreds of bits per second - IMHO way bellow 100bps to provide reasonable SNR which is directly correlated with robustness of protection i.e. ability to survive various signal processing).
    Adding static phase shift or periodical (like sine modulated) IMHO have no sense - with reasonable amount of such phase distortions (limited by human hearing system sensitivity) Cinavia should provide robust protection - not sure about strong, pseudo random phase modulation (up to/around? +-45deg with) - perhaps this can defeat Cinavia at a cost some reduced perceived audio quality - this is quite tricky part not covered by known scientific studies - Cinavia signal should be severely degraded and perhaps defeated in such brute way.

    Fastest way is:
    Complex FFT (2k - 8k?), imaginary part over 8kHz modulated by adding (multiplying?) some psedurandom limited to +-30 - 45deg phase changes - spread speed can be variable - between few tens and few hundred changes per second (perhaps also psedurandom).

  18. I hate to add to this topic, but I'm curious, how will the professional piraters (as in disks sold in China/India etc) defeat Cinavia and continue to sell movies? Or will the Blue ray machines in those countries not honor Cinavia?

  19. Member zoobie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Florida
    Search Comp PM
    They can always just set up their handycams in the theater. Blu-ray didn't include China the last I looked.

  20. I read somewhere that reverb applied would defeat the cinavia protection yet I don't think there would be too many satisfied with those results.
    It seems some light filtering above the 7khz or whatever that number should be could be useful.
    Wonder if the cp shows up in a silent part of the audio stream?
    Does anyone even know what the signal looks like or is it a phase shift that would be hard to detect?
    It might be broad spectrum but I bet most of that is harmonics.

    Admittedly, all this is way over my head but I am surprised that some audio technical guys out there
    haven't spent time to figure it out if for nothing else curiosity

  21. Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    New Zealand
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by jimdagys View Post
    I hate to add to this topic, but I'm curious, how will the professional piraters (as in disks sold in China/India etc) defeat Cinavia and continue to sell movies? Or will the Blue ray machines in those countries not honor Cinavia?
    I suspect that either:

    1. Semi-legal hacked machines that disregard Cinavia will become common in those countries; or
    2. Pirates will simply distribute the pirated works in a format that work directly on PCs and media players instead of as Disks.

  22. My opinion is this: Since there are no laws (in practical terms) or cultural bias against piracy in those countries (China/India, etc) , the professional piraters will find a way to defeat Cinavia. At first, it may be rather crude (noticeable audio distortion) but in time ,the result will be better. I'm guessing DVD Fab will be closely working with the professional piraters to eventually come with a good solution. In the meanwhile, I briefly looked at DVD Fab's website and didn't see anything about not being able to copy some movies (with Cinavia). I'm wondering how they can sell a product without clearly explaining that a person may not be able to copy certain (many?) movies.

  23. Originally Posted by jimdagys View Post
    I'm wondering how they can sell a product without clearly explaining that a person may not be able to copy certain (many?) movies.
    They can all be 'copied'. It's a different kind of protection, unlike the copy protections such as ARccOS that won't give you a clean rip of the movie in the first place. You'll get something that can't be played in a Blu-Ray player without it coming to a screetching halt after 20 minutes. But it can be played on a computer or through countless boxes like WDTV Live or ROKU.

    So, in my opinion they're not really being deceptive in their advertising as the problem is well known.

  24. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    It's MUCH simpler than all of that speculation about how to defeat "piraters".

    Since most DVDs with the exception of a small number of Sony ones don't contain Cinavia and DVD players aren't required to support it, Cinavia is essentially useless in stoping DVD copying.

    Lists on the internet about Cinavia have shown that those studios that use it usually don't pay for any languages other than English to be protected with it. Offhand I don't recall seeing a list of even one language other than English that was protected with it on a BluRay disc. If there are exceptions to that, then they are just that - exceptions. Cinavia is mostly a North American issue. To date I'm not aware of any BluRays released for markets outside of North America and possibly Europe that are known to have Cinavia.

    Given the above, there's nothing to stop piracy in languages other than English or to simply use a non-protected DVD audio track with a BluRay video, assuming that the piraters have the right software to do such.

  25. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Search PM
    It's very likely that H'wood titles that have Cinavia-encoded audio on their BDs will ALSO have it encoded on their DVDs, even though most existing DVD players will ignore the protection. Why? So that what you're suggesting as a bypass metnod won't work.

    The only good method found so far is to play on systems that don't yet support Cinavia (such as older BD players & general media player boxes & HTPCs).

    What I'd be worried about is if they ever enforce Cinavia on the TVs & Receivers themselves!

    Scott

  26. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    It's very likely that H'wood titles that have Cinavia-encoded audio on their BDs will ALSO have it encoded on their DVDs, even though most existing DVD players will ignore the protection. Why? So that what you're suggesting as a bypass metnod won't work.
    That has not been the case to date as the lists available show. Of course that could change. Even Sony rarely uses it on DVDs and they're the only studio known to use it on DVDs.

    To rephrase my post and make some of my points clearer...

    Since Cinavia has either not at all or barely been used overseas, there's nothing to stop pirates from copying BluRay releases in markets that don't use Cinavia. Those discs will very likely have original English language soundtracks if it's a Hollywood film.

    Languages other than English can be copied to your heart's content with very little worry of playback being stopped.

  27. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Search PM
    Problem with international releases is that, even if there is a soundtrack in the correct language, there's a very good chance that the runtimes don't match (not even counting 50<->59.94 or 23.976<->24 framerate conversions, etc), because H'wood titles are often recut for different markets (esp. due to differing levels of "decency laws", but also because of cultural preferences).

    Ok, so DVD's have SO FAR been exempt. But IIWY, I wouldn't count on them for long. H'wood is paranoid about that sort of thing.

    I would say we basically agree on the types of options, just differ on the timeline for the sundowning of (many of) those options. Sure would be nice for someone to reverse-engineer the Cinavia encode & detection process soon. Best way would be to have a known clean master audio (that would be the hard thing to find) and a known Cinavia'd copy and compare differences, both audio-signal-wise and bitwise.

    Scott

  28. Member netmask56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Many BD releases in Australia are NTSC 24 fps, seems most TV and BD players down here don't care about PAL or NTSC, they play.
    As an example below is a MediaInfo report on my rip of Brokeback Mountain purchased at the local supermarket. The box and printing conforms to typical Australian layout with our ratings ("recommended for mature viewers")...
    HTML Code:
    General
    ID                                       : 0 (0x0)
    Complete name                            : \\PCH-C200\Titan\movies\BROKEBACKMOUNTAIN\BDMV\STREAM\00001.m2ts
    Format                                   : BDAV
    Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
    File size                                : 22.5 GiB
    Duration                                 : 2h 14mn
    Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
    Overall bit rate                         : 23.9 Mbps
    Maximum Overall bit rate                 : 48.0 Mbps
    
    Video
    ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
    Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
    Format                                   : AVC
    Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile                           : High@L4.1
    Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
    Format settings, ReFrames                : 4 frames
    Codec ID                                 : 27
    Duration                                 : 2h 14mn
    Bit rate mode                            : Variable
    Maximum bit rate                         : 35.0 Mbps
    Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
    Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
    Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
    Frame rate                               : 24.000 fps
    Standard                                 : NTSC
    Color space                              : YUV
    Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
    Bit depth                                : 8 bits
    Scan type                                : Progressive
    Color primaries                          : BT.709
    Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
    Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
    
    Audio #1
    ID                                       : 4352 (0x1100)
    Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
    Format                                   : DTS
    Format/Info                              : Digital Theater Systems
    Format profile                           : MA / Core
    Mode                                     : 16
    Format settings, Endianness              : Big
    Muxing mode                              : Stream extension
    Codec ID                                 : 134
    Duration                                 : 2h 14mn
    Bit rate mode                            : Variable
    Bit rate                                 : Unknown / 1 509 Kbps
    Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
    Channel positions                        : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
    Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth                                : 16 bits
    Compression mode                         : Lossless / Lossy
    Delay relative to video                  : 333ms
    
    Audio #2
    ID                                       : 4353 (0x1101)
    Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
    Format                                   : AC-3
    Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
    Mode extension                           : CM (complete main)
    Format settings, Endianness              : Big
    Codec ID                                 : 129
    Duration                                 : 2h 14mn
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Bit rate                                 : 384 Kbps
    Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
    Channel positions                        : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
    Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth                                : 16 bits
    Compression mode                         : Lossy
    Delay relative to video                  : 333ms
    Stream size                              : 371 MiB (2%)
    
    Audio #3
    ID                                       : 4354 (0x1102)
    Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
    Format                                   : AC-3
    Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
    Mode extension                           : CM (complete main)
    Format settings, Endianness              : Big
    Codec ID                                 : 129
    Duration                                 : 2h 14mn
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Bit rate                                 : 384 Kbps
    Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
    Channel positions                        : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
    Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth                                : 16 bits
    Compression mode                         : Lossy
    Delay relative to video                  : 333ms
    Stream size                              : 369 MiB (2%)
    
    Text
    ID                                       : 4608 (0x1200)
    Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
    Format                                   : PGS
    Codec ID                                 : 144
    SONY 75" Full array 200Hz LED TV, Yamaha A1070 amp, Zidoo UHD3000, BeyonWiz PVR V2 (Enigma2 clone), Chromecast, Windows 11 Professional, QNAP NAS TS851

  29. okay guys I think I broke it...download an app named "gom player" & use a screen recorder...adjust the playback audio to 0.7....and it will make it cinavia free.
    Last edited by anon1000; 9th May 2013 at 11:28.

  30. Member Seeker47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    drifting, somewhere on the Sea of Cynicism
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Problem with international releases is that, even if there is a soundtrack in the correct language, there's a very good chance that the runtimes don't match (not even counting 50<->59.94 or 23.976<->24 framerate conversions, etc), because H'wood titles are often recut for different markets (esp. due to differing levels of "decency laws", but also because of cultural preferences).
    And now maybe some additional reasons. I can't recall which one, but according to something I read recently, one of this summer's big movies will have extra scenes with a Chinese character (which won't be in the domestic version), expressly designed to cater to that particular market. Hollywood may be more inclined to do this sort of thing now, particularly if some of the film's financing is connected to it.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.




Similar Threads

Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!