How to remove Cinavia protection?

[usually_quiet]

You know that there are such things as compiled libraries and yet you still contend that Verance would be likely to provide manufacturers with source code or specs instead. If Verance had made it that easy for their technology to be cracked, they would be out of the DRM business by now. The machines you are discussing use a limited number of CPUs, and have an OS based on Linux or BSD. It wouldn't be difficult for Verance to provide a compiled library to manufacturers, and given that the license is not inexpensive, they can still make a profit by doing that.

Smart people don't waste their time dreaming of the day when Cinavia will be cracked. They use players that are Cinavia compliant for playing original discs and use a media player or a PC when playing ripped material.

Given that we're talking about a black box here (the content of the Sony hack), you seem awfully sure of yourself about what's inside of it or not inside of it as the case may be.

How do you know that the Sony hack hasn't obtained such material?
Have you reviewed it all and confirmed that nothing useful relating to Cinavia is present?

Given that the contents of the Sony hack is still largely a black box to most of the world, you seem awfully sure that the hackers got useful information about Cinavia. Have you been communicating with the hackers and helping them out with their search for valuable items contained in the data that was stolen?

Lovely diversion from answering my question with your own question.

Who do you represent and who do you work for?

Yeah right. You think I work for someone associated in any way with this form of DRM after saying that people can get around it by using a media player or PC to watch ripped movies. Thanks for confirming that you are a troll. I'm not feeding you anymore. gonca and OllieTSB can have at you.

[brusno]

Ok. I've read some discussions on Cinavia, and coming to the knowledge that no-one has solved the problem yet (which is to remove Cinavia from the audio, while maintaining original audioquality). The suggested solutions are therefore pointed to workarounds.
Because it isn't solved yet, then the wisest thing must be to discuss how Cinavia really works, as it is a lot of confusion on this.

As far as I know on this subject (which isn't very wide yet), the Cinavia is added to the audio in the area that human actually can hear, but should be un-noticeable for humans despite this.
Is Cinavia actually tones that is added to the audio? Does anyone know in what frequencies?
And is it possible to find out where in the signal these Cinavia tones are?
Is Cinavia added to the sound analogly, before the audio is made digital? Or is it added to the audio in a digital form? (0's and 1's)?

I've read that the Cinavia information isn't at the same spots on every discs, but will differ. So a program can't be instructed to remove Cinavia-tones on specific places each time. Then you are depending on actually finding them each time.

Are Cinavia-tones separate tones beside the original audio, or is it added "on top" of existing tones?
Are the Cinavia-tones "phase shifted" like the way it is done in Dolby Pro Logic? Such that these tones never reach the loudspeakers, but still are present? If so, maybe these tones goes to the Cinavia chip in bluray players instead of a loudspeaker.

I've also read that Cinavia-tones survive an analog transformation, i.e: via microphone (at movietheaters). Will this exclude the phase shifting theory, or is phase shifted sound also surviving analog transformation of sound?

Is it possible to first disable AACS which is present on bluray-discs in order to rip the movie and the sound with Cinavia, and then adding the AACS content again after ripping it, such that it doesn't matter if the Cinavia is present on the audio?

If anyone has the knowledge, feel free to answer my questions, or add some known theory

[Cornucopia]

There are patent applications from Verance and whitepapers, both of which should lead you to a better (if still incomplete) understanding. It uses Watermarking and/or Steganography. Usually applied to the LSB, and accumulated during a ~10-20 sec. cycle (usually ~12 sec). It may or may not use phase-shifting and/or echo modification to assist in masking and in surviving analog+digital generational cycles.
It does not require AACS for the reading of the audio signal. What it does is work in concert with AACS in that, once it finds a watermark there (with likely a specific "signature"), that signature has to match the AACS-licensed key, or at least recognize the presence OF an AACS key (specific or not), otherwise it defeats the audio and posts a warning.
Since end-users cannot generate AACS, period (whether ripped or originally generated), you suggestion has no chance of working. AACS likely exists ONLY in the BD-ROM Mark sectors, which are outside of the user-data sectors. It is applied ONLY to stamped/pressed discs, and only at pressing plants, and ONLY at the time of pressing (or glass mastering, for check discs).

Best case scenario for actual 3rd party removal of Cinavia (without resorting to skullduggery) would be the obtaining of valid LPCM "before" and "after" files (otherwise identical), so that one could do a comparative analysis and recognize the Cinavia code pattern. That is of course assuming that it (the pattern) doesn't vary, which, given the hints in the whitepapers, is a naive assumption. What you really would need would be a whole bunch of before+afters to recognize a statistical pattern in the modifying algorithm.
Then, using a process of "assumed encoder" modelling, do feedback testing to see which models generate a positive Cinavia warning. One you "know" the encoder model, you could synthesize a decoder model and use that to "subtract" the code.
All that is a lot of work, which is why no one has been successful (and probably won't be for a LONG time).

Scott

[fritzi93]

All that is a lot of work, which is why no one has been successful (and probably won't be for a LONG time).

Yeah, and what's in it for someone to be willing to tackle it? Other than a lawsuit (unless you're in Russia, China, Antigua, et. al.).

At the risk of repeating myself, not everyone has a sense of urgency about Cinavia. Lots of people use media players, HTPCs, or even onboard TV media players to play files from external hard drive. And those aren't "workarounds" but preferred by many to using a Blu-Ray standalone.

I too suspect it will be a long time, if ever, before Cinavia is defeated without very obviously screwing the audio.

[hotblu]

Thanks for confirming that you are a troll. I'm not feeding you anymore. gonca and OllieTSB can have at you.

Here's a link to someone that has downloaded the Sony hack files that have been made available via torrents and analysed their contents:

https://www.riskbasedsecurity.com/2014/12/a-breakdown-and-analysis-of-the-december-2014-sony-hack/

I'd encourage you to read all of it and pay particular attention to the screen shots, especially that from the contents of the spe_05 file.

Would you like to apologise now or later for calling me a troll?

[usually_quiet]

Would you like to apologise now or later for calling me a troll?

No. The existence of folder named AACS among the stolen data means nothing by itself. Given what the analyst wrote above that section, I'd say it is more far more likely to contain reports about relations with or correspondence to the AACS LA than useful technical documents or software of any kind related to Cinavia. If you aren't a troll you are an idiot.

[hotblu]

Would you like to apologise now or later for calling me a troll?

No. The existence of folder named AACS among the stolen data means nothing by itself. Given what the analyst wrote above that section, I'd say it is more far more likely to contain reports about relations with or correspondence to the AACS LA than useful technical documents or software of any kind related to Cinavia. If you aren't a troll you are an idiot.

Hahahaha. You obviously didn't read and examine the entire web page.

[El Heggunte]

IMHO, the least that hotblu should do is,

a) download the 5GB archive
b) decompress it to his/her PC's HD
c) give us the full directory listing for the folders named AACS and Cinavia
d) quote anything he/she thinks is important

NOTICE, the article itself contains 0 occurrences of the words "AACS" and "Cinavia"

e) nope, the homework is not mine

[hotblu]

IMHO, the least that hotblu should do is,

a) download the 5GB archive
b) decompress it to his/her PC's HD
c) give us the full directory listing for the folders named AACS and Cinavia
d) quote anything he/she thinks is important

NOTICE, the article itself contains 0 occurrences of the words "AACS" and "Cinavia"

Indeed, in this case you need to look at the screen captures of the RAR file contents to find the interesting bits of information.

The article also contains 0 occurrences of the words "Enhanced Content Protection."

[El Heggunte]

Indeed, in this case you need to look at the screen captures of the RAR file contents to find the interesting bits of information.

Nope, we would need to know the actual contents of the archive.
Filenames can be deceiving.
Also, I normally mistrust anyone who doesn't set their Windows OS to show the file extensions and the system/hidden files as well.
And yes, you would be terrible as an engineer, a scientist, or a lawyer.

[hotblu]

Indeed, in this case you need to look at the screen captures of the RAR file contents to find the interesting bits of information.

Nope, we would need to know the actual contents of the archive.
Filenames can be deceiving.
Also, I normally mistrust anyone who doesn't set their Windows OS to show the file extensions and the system/hidden files as well.
And yes, you would be terrible as an engineer, a scientist, or a lawyer.

Well you're just as able as I am to download and inspect it.

Afterall, it's not like Windows is the only platform that can extract rar files or that we don't have safe ways of running Windows (i.e. in a VM) to examine files from an untrusted source.

p.s. Is being rude and making personal insults common for members of this forum?

[Steve(MS)]

p.s. Is being rude and making personal insults common for members of this forum?

Not usually but in the case of posters like you, sometimes we make an exception.
If you know something about all this, plainly tell us.
If not, then all your posts are a wild goose chase.

Our surmise of you right now is that you are not smart or normal.

Care to defend your cause?

[jagabo]

Well you're just as able as I am to download and inspect it.

But you're the only one who cares.

[El Heggunte]

jagabo said it all, hotblu is the only one who's dreaming about killing Cinavia

And as I said before, I won't do hotblu's homework.

[hotblu]

p.s. Is being rude and making personal insults common for members of this forum?

Not usually but in the case of posters like you, sometimes we make an exception.
If you know something about all this, plainly tell us.
If not, then all your posts are a wild goose chase.

Our surmise of you right now is that you are not smart or normal.

Care to defend your cause?

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[usually_quiet]

Let's not forget that the data was stolen. I don't feel like aiding the hackers by reading through it.

[El Heggunte]

Let's not forget that the data was stolen.
I don't feel like aiding the hackers by reading through it.

Fear not, the infamous Cinavia folder stolen from $ony contains only 4 files,

1 n00bish Thumbs.db,
1 NON-CONFIDENTIAL .PDF,
1 NON-CONFIDENTIAL .DOC

and 1 super-ultra-hyper top-secret .JPG

[hotblu]

Let's not forget that the data was stolen.
I don't feel like aiding the hackers by reading through it.

Fear not, the infamous Cinavia folder stolen from $ony contains only 4 files,

1 n00bish Thumbs.db,
1 NON-CONFIDENTIAL .PDF,
1 NON-CONFIDENTIAL .DOC

and 1 super-ultra-hyper top-secret .JPG

LOL!

If the PDF/DOC are not confidential, can you publish them somewhere?
Or are they available elsewhere already?

[jman98]

LOL!

If the PDF/DOC are not confidential, can you publish them somewhere?
Or are they available elsewhere already?

You say "LOL!" but you miss the point that the ENTIRE post is a joke.

"That's a joke, I say, that's a joke, son!"
"You're built too low. The fast ones go over your head."
"I keep pitchin' em and you keep missin' 'em."

[El Heggunte]

It's difficult to believe, but the HotKid really doesn't know how to use a BitTorrent client

Besides, if I said those two files are self-labeled as "non-confidential", it's because they are as irrelevant as the attached JPG file in my previous post.

[hotblu]

It's difficult to believe, but the HotKid really doesn't know how to use a BitTorrent client

Besides, if I said those two files are self-labeled as "non-confidential", it's because they are as irrelevant as the attached JPG file in my previous post.

Well given that there are files related to Cinavia in the small amount of material released so far, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that in the other 99.9TB of data there would be more? Only question is who has it and if they've thought of looking through it for such material.

[jman98]

You say "LOL!" but you miss the point that the ENTIRE post is a joke.

Or I may be wrong and read way too much into El Huggunte's attempt at humor. Whether it's real or not, I give up. I seriously doubt that the docs contain anything of use to hackers, but we shall see.

[ponens]

p.s. Is being rude and making personal insults common for members of this forum?

It is par for the course for some members here.

[usually_quiet]

Let's not forget that the data was stolen.
I don't feel like aiding the hackers by reading through it.

Fear not, the infamous Cinavia folder stolen from $ony contains only 4 files,

I meant I don't feel like helping the cyber-terrorists responsible for the theft in achieving their goal of getting more people to read through the stolen data. Others can do as they wish.

Fear not, the infamous Cinavia folder stolen from $ony contains only 4 files,

1 n00bish Thumbs.db,
1 NON-CONFIDENTIAL .PDF,
1 NON-CONFIDENTIAL .DOC

and 1 super-ultra-hyper top-secret .JPG

Now it has been confirmed that whatever information is in those documents won't be any more useful than the information in Cinavia white papers and patent filings already available to the pubic.

[Edit]The bad news is we can expect this troll/idiot to attempt to send us on more wild goose chases anyway.

[hotblu]

Sometimes you lead people to a small creek and they know how to find a river or lake from it.

Sometimes you lead people to a small creek and they throw up hands in despair and say that's not enough water.

Sometimes just even knowing what to look for is half the battle.

Everyone is different and not everyone can be helped.

[Cornucopia]

Truer words were never unspoken.

Scott

[hotblu]

Ok. I've read some discussions on Cinavia, and coming to the knowledge that no-one has solved the problem yet (which is to remove Cinavia from the audio, while maintaining original audioquality). The suggested solutions are therefore pointed to workarounds.
Because it isn't solved yet, then the wisest thing must be to discuss how Cinavia really works, as it is a lot of confusion on this.

Is Cinavia actually tones that is added to the audio? Does anyone know in what frequencies?
And is it possible to find out where in the signal these Cinavia tones are?
Is Cinavia added to the sound analogly, before the audio is made digital? Or is it added to the audio in a digital form? (0's and 1's)?

I've read that the Cinavia information isn't at the same spots on every discs, but will differ. So a program can't be instructed to remove Cinavia-tones on specific places each time. Then you are depending on actually finding them each time.

Are Cinavia-tones separate tones beside the original audio, or is it added "on top" of existing tones?

You can't remove Cinavia, per se. It is effectively a one-way change that happens to the audio. The best that we'll be able to do is add something to the audio that results in the Cinavia watermark being corrupted and unrecoverable.

It is an 8 bit watermark (of which 3 bits are unused) that can be extracted with as little as 5 seconds of audio.

[fits79]

So bottom line there is or there is not any way to completely remove the cinavia protection?

[johns0]

Nope,only way to bypass it is to use a blu-ray player with no cinavia installed or media player or a home pc to tv.

[addu]

The only way out for cinavia is to distort audio and this is the only way rightnow. I successfully did this even for The amazing spiderman 2 which was having cinavia on 3 different frequencies.