Render 720p @ 59.94 fps in AVC Format with Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 10.0

[70Standard]

My source files are from a Kodak Playsport, MOV extension, 720p at 59.94 fps. I have edited the videos in Vegas, and need to save them in AVC format for eventual burn to blu-ray. Intent is to keep source resolution and frame rate so that blu-ray video quality is as high as possible, and output file type that DVD Architect doesn't have to re-render. Unfortunately, Vegas doesn't offer anything but a "baseline" profile for the Sony AVC format, and for 720p this tops out at 29.97 fps. Is there a way to get Vegas to output a 720p 59.94 fps AVC file?

[aedipuss]

in vegas pro you just type 59.94 in the box. no idea if it works in studio though.

[poisondeathray]

Studio version probably has fewer options. If you can't access "high" profile, try mainconcept AVC instead of sony AVC

I mentioned this in your other thread by sony has problems with making compatible blu-ray streams using AVC, they get re-encoded in DVDA (not only a waste of time re-rendering, but you incur quality loss)

Another option would be to use debugmode frameserver and some gui for x264 (x264 will produce better compression & quality anyway) , or a lossless intermediate and x264

[70Standard]

I remember thinking when I bought my Playsport and Vegas that editing HD video and burning blu-ray discs would be straightforward...

Not sure why, but when I clicked back on the Vegas RENDER AS menu, the native frame rate of 59.96 from the source video files was in the FRAMERATE box. Can't explain it. So I tried to render the video, but an unspecified error kept coming up. After manually changing the framerate to 59.94 (had to type it into the FRAMERATE box), rendering seems to be going as planned.

The engineer in me wants to understand the details about all this, but my practical side says I should just appreciate that it's rendering. I'm doing my first run of just sound and still pictures with crossfades at 15kbps, and will do the next run at 20kbps, and may try 10kbps just to see how low I can go and still get nice crossfades.

Thanks to all for the continued help. I'm sure this won't be the last question that comes up...

[budwzr]

AVCHD doesn't support 60p because BD/DVD players don't support it.

Also, your camera shoots low quality 60p. But the trade off is you can do slomo.

As an engineer, you will appreciate that in video, every upside has a downside. You have to rob peter to pay paul. You can't eat cake and have it too.

It's like plumbing and electric. Flow, pressure, capacity, volts, ohms, etc.

Or like the saying, you can get it fast, cheap, and right. But not all three together.

[poisondeathray]

AVCHD doesn't support 60p because BD/DVD players don't support it.

whatcha talkin about willis ?

BD and AVCHD support 720p59.94 ...

[budwzr]

But that's 2.0, right?

Willis? That was Sanford & Son, right?

I went to Glenwood Hot Springs, CO with the wife, and it was a lot of snow. Now I'm in Palm Springs! Hahaha.

Glad I bought a laptop. I'm making particles while sippin on a pino colona.

[70Standard]

To evaluate quality using different settings, I rendered four files at 720p and 59.94 fps:

1. Sony AVC @ CBR 10 kbps (no VBR option) using Baseline profile (only profile available)
2. Sony AVC @ CBR 15 kbps (no VBR option) using Baseline profile (only profile available)
3. Main Concept AVC/AAC @ VBR 4 kbps/14 kbps using Main profile
4. Main Concept AVC/AAC @ VBR 10 kbps/20 kbps using Main profile

I used DVD Architect to put them on a blu-ray disc with a simple menu. DVDA didn't re-render the Sony AVC files, but did re-render the two Main Concept files. I set the Sony AVC files to have a .avc extension, and the Main Concept files defaulted to a .mp4 extension.

The source videos are still pictures with crossfades. I couldn't see any significant difference in quality between any of the videos when viewed on a 50" Panasonic plasma TV and played on a PlayStation 3.

I think VBR would be helpful, as a lot of my source video is pretty static, with limited motion when present. Is there a file type available in Vegas that doesn't require a re-render in DVDA for blu-ray and that offers VBR?

[70Standard]

Also, your camera shoots low quality 60p. But the trade off is you can do slomo.

As an engineer, you will appreciate that in video, every upside has a downside. You have to rob peter to pay paul. You can't eat cake and have it too.

It's like plumbing and electric. Flow, pressure, capacity, volts, ohms, etc.

Or like the saying, you can get it fast, cheap, and right. But not all three together.

You hit the nail on the head with the upside/downside comments. Most of my work as an engineer has been to find the sweet spot between quality and cost. My little Playsport camera hasn't disappointed in that regard. It shoots 1080p at 30 fps or 720p at 60 fps. I tried both, and the 1080p is pretty bad quality. The 720p at 60 fps is actually decent, considering the camera's cost.

[70Standard]

The Good News - Sony AVC file type doesn't get re-rendered by DVD Architect when burning to blu-ray. All others I have tried (Main Concept AVC/AAC, etc.) get re-rendered.

The Bad News - Files rendered in Sony AVC format have no embedded sound, and don't generate a separate sound file when rendered.

Any suggestions for how to render in Sony AVC format with sound?

[poisondeathray]

create a new template, checkmark "include audio" in the audio tab

Sony AVC doesn't use b-frames , is 1pass, and used fixed GOP length - so compression will suffer (quality will be ok if you give enough bitrate, but the whole point of compression is better quality , smaller filesizes)

You will see picture "fall apart" when you have source material that is high quality with details, or includes lots of motion - these factors make the source more difficult to compress

AAC audio is not blu-ray compliant so that will always be re-encoded
AC3 is compliant, as is LPCM

[aedipuss]

click the audio tab at the bottom of the sony avc render to popup. make sure include audio is checked.

you can also check the rendered files to see if audio is there with mediainfo.

[budwzr]

Yes, the Playsport is a decent "pocket" camcorder. So was the Flip. Good for practicing technique because there's no focusing, shutter speed, exposure, etc. to bother with.

The good news is that Sony Vegas has all the features you'll ever need to edit that video like a pro. It has a lot of deep functionality that will reveal itself over time, but you need to stick with it for about a year until your brain gets up to speed.

I'm a hobbyist myself, and I've had the bug for 5+ years, and it just gets more and more rewarding as time goes by. It engages the deepest part of your brain, and you get excited when you discover new methods and techniques, but no one you know will understand what the heck you're talking about, so this forum is a good place to let it out.

Welcome

[70Standard]

click the audio tab at the bottom of the sony avc render to popup. make sure include audio is checked.

The "Include Audio" option on the audio tab is greyed out. Seems like once AVC is chosen as the file extension, it prevents audio from being included.

[70Standard]

create a new template, checkmark "include audio" in the audio tab

If I use the existing Sony AVC template and choose AVC as the format, the include audio option is greyed out. Is there another way to create an AVC template that includes audio? Or, given what you've said about the shortcomings of the Sony AVC template, would I be better off rendering using Main Concept AVC, knowing that the video will be re-rendered in DVD Architect? My goal was to render in a format that didn't require re-rendering in DVDA so that video quality stayed as high as possible after the initial render. Seems simple, but so far impossible to achieve...

I have the feeling I'm clearly documenting my own ignorance in my posts...thank you for putting up with my lack of knowledge!

[budwzr]

Vegas got re-jiggered in Version 12. They added a full MainConcept encoder, and cut down the Sony AVC encoder.

When I upgraded from 11 to 12, some of my Sony AVC templates didn't work anymore, so I had to delete them. I was getting the "Unknown Error" message at render. Generally, that error means something is not supported.

AFAIK, the Main Concept encoder is Apple friendly, but they may not want you burning BD's with it. Sony is a media company, so they're not going to let you do certain things when it comes to authoring.

That's not to say you can't burn a high quality DVD, you just might have to use other software. DVDA has never been popular with Vegas users. A lot of complaints.

When Sony mentions BluRay, they really mean AVCHD, which is a consumer version.

[aedipuss]

budz you realize he has vegas studio not pro, right? vegas pro got the better mc encoder, but i'm not sure studio did as studio is usually updated a version number behind. so studio 13 may get some of pro 12's new stuff.

[aedipuss]

and studio 10 is a couple years older...

[budwzr]

OK, sorry about that. I must have been daydreaming while responding. hehehe.

I read something above about using the MC encoder, but in that version it's crippled. Only good for iPhone, iPod.

[_Al_]

Export AC3 separately, Render As and find Dolby Digital AC3 Studio in there, whatever it is called there,name the file for example movie.AC3, put it in the same folder as movie.avc. If you name that video as movie.avc for example while importing into DVD Architect it should import audio as well as I remember correctly. If not just import it into DVD Architect separately.

[_Al_]

What will bring down Vegas is this circus while exporting, errors while exporting, re-render in DVD Architect.

Adobe built on this principal 5 years back that you can transfer timelines between software without exporting anything, imho they should have something like that between Vegas and DVD Architect.

BTW,DVD Architect loads signpost.avi or avs (do not remember which or if both) coming from DebugModeFrame server, so how hard it would be to implement something like that right within their software.

[70Standard]

Adobe built on this principal 5 years back that you can transfer timelines between software without exporting anything, imho they should have something like that between Vegas and DVD Architect.

While I'm pleased with the features of both Vegas and DVD Architect, I'm disappointed by several aspects of both programs, not the least of which is the inability to edit vide and author blu ray discs without multiple re-renders. Does Adobe have editing and DVD authoring software that works better than Vegas and DVD Architect, especially regarding work with blu ray discs?

[budwzr]

Keep Vegas and dump DVDA.

[poisondeathray]

Does Adobe have editing and DVD authoring software that works better than Vegas and DVD Architect, especially regarding work with blu ray discs?

It does - it's called "dynamic link", which connects premiere (editing) to encore (authoring) . One of Adobe's main selling point behind the "creative suite" is integration with various apps in the suite like photoshop, after effects . Essentially you can connect them all together in a seamless workflow . For example, you can edit a menu in photoshop or AE, and have the changes reflected in realtime in encore, no need to render different assets, reimport, swap assets, that sort of thing

But that's not to say the Adobe suite doesn't have it share of "quirks" - both vegas and premiere have bugs and various workflow issues or "gotchas"

[poisondeathray]

I think the reason why you don't have audio option is you have "avc" enabled in the system tab - "AVC" is a raw elementary video stream without container - It's analgous to "m2v" in the DVD authoring. This implies no audio. However - if you mux into another container like .m2ts, .mp4 , often authoring programs will not like it . Authoring is usually best done with elementary streams

[_Al_]

You keep going to do that in Vegas, you are almost there, make two separate streams and load them into DVD Architect. Give them the same name, maybe DVD Architect loads that audio track automatically.

As was told before professional or even enthusiast might produce two separate streams also. Even each one in different software. It is quite natural. DVD Authoring software has to demultiplex mp4 container for example and then mux it again into some BD m2ts stream. And then there could be more audio tracks on BD so it is only natural to feed authoring software with elementary streams, meaning give it another audio track, like commentary etc.

Other scenario, you can encode H.264 (video only) in external encoder, there is free x264 encoder that gives you better result that MainConcept or Sony encoder within Vegas. But if you do not starve encoder with low bitrate even those videos produced in Vegas are all right, do not worry, that is just an example.

Other example, I can use very old version of Vegas and still have up to date top encoder encoding outside of Vegas, even free. Again, you do not have to do it, just example.

AC3 studio is only 192kbps top, I think, in those small vegas versions (if nothing had changed lately) , sometimes you need much more (so much bitrate is wasted into video, why not to crank up bitrate for audio, it is 50% of movie experience , right ), so you get audio track outside of Vegas again, DebugMode Frame server's virtual avi file is exported and loaded into other aplications to produce AC3 with parameters of your liking...

just an example that separate streams is not weird workflow but sometimes necessary but you are all right with whatever you do right now ...

[aedipuss]

even if you did get vegas to render audio in with the video out of the avc encoder it would be aac. you'd have to re-render it to ac3 for blu-ray compatibility anyway.

[budwzr]

Worst case scenario is you may have to read the manual, but that's a long ways off, you still have a lot of different angles to try. It might even be that somehow you messed up the settings.

[vcd4ever]

Or, given what you've said about the shortcomings of the Sony AVC template, would I be better off rendering using Main Concept AVC, knowing that the video will be re-rendered in DVD Architect? My goal was to render in a format that didn't require re-rendering in DVDA so that video quality stayed as high as possible after the initial render. Seems simple, but so far impossible to achieve...

The Mainconcept AVC is a much better encoder than Sony AVC, but Architect will re-render everything that has been encoded with the Mainconcept AVC.

As was told before professional or even enthusiast might produce two separate streams also. Even each one in different software. It is quite natural. DVD Authoring software has to demultiplex mp4 container for example and then mux it again into some BD m2ts stream. And then there could be more audio tracks on BD so it is only natural to feed authoring software with elementary streams, meaning give it another audio track, like commentary etc.

Yes, most authoring programs works best when using elementary streams and I prefer to use elementary streams when working with Sony DVD Archiect Pro 5.0.

Vcd4ever.

[70Standard]

Thanks to all who posted responses. I was ultimately successful at rendering video AVC files (elementary streams or something similar) that did not require re-rendering in DVDA. As one post suggested, I separately rendered the audio as wave files. I then put the video and audio together in DVDA, and went on to the next set of problems, namely video and audio glitches when playing the rendered BD as it goes from one file to the next (really noticeable when video between two files is continuous) and that the chapter marks I placed in Vegas got moved several tens of seconds when I opened the rendered files in DVDA. Had to go back and move all the chapter marks back to their proper locations.

Is it me, or has Sony got things about 65% right with Vegas and DVD Architect? These idiosyncrasies are a real disappointment. Any software that's got it 95%+ right? I'll buy it today!