Comb filter test in Panasonic svhs decks poor results

[mammo1789]

Hi guys
I tried to use mu 2 shvs players ( ag1980 european model fs200 and only european model hs1000) to be pass trough 3dcomb filter as i heard that they have very good one and only in this units.
I usually use panasonic dvd recorder ( dmr es15, es10, e60) as comb filter one so i made some test's and they came very very disappointing.

1.Could it be that the comb filter only works at moving pictures?
2. Could it be that my vcr's are broken ?
3. Although not 3dcomb is it possible that dvd recorder has better composite in/ svhs out routine ?
4. Is it posible that my tv card aver media satellite trinity has some sort of 3dcomb filter ( i couldn't find it on the site http://www.avermedia.com/product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=463 )?

The test is done on stop tape
The source is hi8 camera ( analog composite out )to

1. svhs composite in svideo out to panasonic dmres15 from there svideo out ( at back) to pc card
2. panasonic dmres15 from there svideo out ( back) to pc card

[danno78]

1.Could it be that the comb filter only works at moving pictures?

1. No. It is always ON on composite input

2. Could it be that my vcr's are broken ?

2. No. Are OK but both vcr are very old and the comb filter it also old

3. Although not 3dcomb is it possible that dvd recorder has better composite in/ svhs out routine ?

3. Panasonic DVD recorders based on own Matsushita chip have adaptive 2D comb filter

4. Is it posible that my tv card aver media satellite trinity has some sort of 3dcomb filter ( i couldn't find it on the site http://www.avermedia.com/product/Pro...il.aspx?Id=463 )?

4. No 3D comb filter on Aver Media Satellite Trinity. The comb filter is an adaptive 2D type with 2 line for NTSC and 4 line for PAL sources.

[jagabo]

Your SVHS decks probably only have 2d comb filters. 3d comb filters require enough memory to store multiple frames of video. 3d comb filters work best on stationary parts of the picture.

[mammo1789]

2. Could it be that my vcr's are broken ?
2. No. Are OK but both vcr are very old and the comb filter it also old

Your SVHS decks probably only have 2d comb filters. 3d comb filters require enough memory to store multiple frames of digital video. 3d comb filters work best on stationary parts of the picture.

I thought that ag1980 ( hs1000 is even newer model ) svhs has 3d comb filter at least that what i was reading on this forum.

Panasonic DVD recorders based on own Matsushita chip have adaptive 2D comb filter

But why the picture is so terrible on both vcr's and very clean and no rainbows on dvd recorder ( if in theory the dvd should have less effective comb filter).

More interesting is that if i put the composite directly in tv card the picture is without rainbows ( like trough the dvd recorder one but without the clean edges and without frame sync ability so on bad tapes it drops frames while trough dvd this never happens) clean and much much better than trough vcr composite in svhs out ( comb filter ).
I am puzzled

[danno78]

I thought that ag1980 ( hs1000 is even newer model ) svhs has 3d comb filter at least that what i was reading on this forum.

AFAIK there is no S-VHS vcr with 3D comb filter. AG1980 and HS1000 are very old vcr. The newers S-VHS from Panasonic HS860, HS930, HS960 have an beter comb filter 2D adaptive. Also the S-VHS vcr with DigiPure from JVC have beter 2D comb filter.

But why the picture is so terrible on both vcr's and very clean and no rainbows on dvd recorder ( if in theory the dvd should have less effective comb filter).

The first and second picture show the comb filter from vcr. The last picture show the performance of the comb filter from Panasonic DVD recorder. Why the comb filter from recorder should be less effective? An adaptive 2D comb filter is decent and is the second best comb filter available. The best type comb filter is 3D comb filter. Only the latest and expensive devices have this type.
It is hard to understand that comb filter from both vcr is an simple/basic comb filter and the comb filter from recorder and tv tuner is more complex/beter ?

[mammo1789]

Specialties: * Full-field TBC * Independent linear audio in/out * Digital noise reduction * 3-D Y/C separation * S-VHS with amorphous video heads * Built-in digital time base corrector * Hi-Fi stereo sound with Hi-Fi recording control * Headphone monitor terminal with level volume control * Frame-by-frame slow motion * Mic input * 5-pin editing terminal for use with the AG-A96 editing controller * Insert/assemble editing with flying erase head * Jog/shuttle dial * Auto head cleaning/quick response mechanism. * Digital tracking * 2-speed (SP/SLP) recording and 3-speed (SP/LP/SLP) playback * Built-in MTS and SAP compatible * 181-channel TV tuner tape index/sound search system. Specifications: * Format: Svhs / Vhs W/ Switch * Number Of Heads :4 Heads * Audio: Hi-Fi Stereo, Mts Stereo * Flying Erase Head :Yes * Audio Dub: Yes * Insert Editing :Yes (Audio/Video) * (Random) Assemble Edit: Yes * Control Protocol: Yes Control-M (5-Pin) * Time Base Corrector (Tbc): Yes * Jog/Shuttle: Yes Jog/Shuttle * Audio Level Meter: Yes * Manual Audio Level Cntrl: Yes * Slow Motion :Still, Slow Motion * Frame Advance: Frame By Frame * Manual Tracking: Yes * Program Timer Recording: Yes * Tape Counter: Yes * Rec. Speeds: Sp/Slp * Playback Speeds :Sp/Slp * Front Audio/Video Input: 1 X S-Video, And 1 X RCA In Line 2 * Back A/V Input :1 X S-Video,1 X Bnc,And 1 X Audio L/R Line 1 * Back A/V Output :1 X S-Video, 2 X Bnc And 2 X Phono (RCA) L/R Audio Output * Headphone Jack: Yes W/ Level Control * Mic. Input :Yes, (Mini Stereo) * Index Search :Yes * 181 Channel Tuner: Yes Dimensions (W/H/D): 17" X 4 3/8" X 15" (430 X 110 X 380 Mm) Weight: 14 Lbs 3 Oz (6.5 Kg) * Remote :Yes * Specialties: Wide Screen 16:9 Playback, A Front Display, (TBC) Time Base Corrector,(DNR) Digital Noise Reduction, Tape Counter Reset. * Retail value is $2499

It says 3d y/c separation ( comb filter ) so it must have one just it is not working ( or not working properly )

It's purpose is to separate Color Signal from the Black and White signal and send both signals to the proper circuits for further processing....

All color TV signals "Blend" the Color and B/W together, BUT it's better if the two never "Blend"....That's why S-Vid connections were so hot years ago...Keeps intermodultion of the signals occurring, which results in less distortion.....

Well the 3D-YC circuit was a genius circuit as it was designed to TRULY SEPARATE the 2 signals with ACTIVE DIGITAL FILTERING....Not passive signal filtering which never removed ALL the color from the Black and White signal....You ended up with color "remnants" distorting the Black/White signal....

The Black/White content of the picture produces the DETAIL, The Brightness, the Contrast and the Synchronizing parts of the picture....so the color would mess up the DETAIL especially....

The 3D-YC Digital filter is the BEST filter above all other designs.....
It intelligently removes color from black/white by storing the previous line and the present line, and the upcoming line by buffering it...it removes the "Present- line" coloring by looking at the previous and the upcoming lines, determining what colors are in both, and removing the color in the present line with that information....

AFAIK there is no S-VHS vcr with 3D comb filter. AG1980 and HS1000 are very old vcr. The newers S-VHS from Panasonic HS860, HS930, HS960 have an beter comb filter 2D adaptive. Also the S-VHS vcr with DigiPure from JVC have beter 2D comb filter.

is this information true

The first and second picture show the comb filter from vcr. The last picture show the performance of the comb filter from Panasonic DVD recorder. Why the comb filter from recorder should be less effective? An adaptive 2D comb filter is decent and is the second best comb filter available. The best type comb filter is 3D comb filter. Only the latest and expensive devices have this type.
It is hard to understand that comb filter from both vcr is an simple/basic comb filter and the comb filter from recorder and tv tuner is more complex/beter ?

I don't know about the latest and expensive devices have ( i think all lcd tv and some tv cards ati especially have it ) I know my lcd 40 tv samsung has it and it is very good.

So to answer it, is hard to understand because this vcr are the top of the line one's so anyone else experiencing this problem with theirs vcr's and their comb filter.

[jagabo]

I seem to recall reading that a lot of S-VHS decks only enable their filters when playing tapes. So maybe the 3d comb filter isn't applied in pass through mode?

[NJRoadfan]

I seem to recall reading that a lot of S-VHS decks only enable their filters when playing tapes. So maybe the 3d comb filter isn't applied in pass through mode?

The filters are always active in passthrough. The AG-1980 was advertised as having a 3Dadaptive comb filter and based on testing, it does indeed work. The JVCs also have a pass-through comb filter too.

[danno78]

It says 3d y/c separation ( comb filter ) so it must have one just it is not working ( or not working properly )

My sentence was based on practical tests. I can bet: there is no VCR with 3D comb filter in passthrough mode.

It has 3D Digital Com Filter but is not active in passthrough mode. The 3D comb filter is linked with TBC which is only active in play mode. We all know this: TBC/DNR can be set ON only in PLAY mode. There is an reason why is linked with TBC. On an source with time base errors, the efficiency of 3D Comb filter is reduced and artifacts are present in an greater numbers. Worth mentioning, all 3D comb filter leave some motion artifacts when the 3D (static scenes) is turn OFF and the 2D (motion scenes) mode is turn ON but, without fixing times base error, the continuous lines motion will confuse the comb filter and y/c separation errors are enhanced.

I seem to recall reading that a lot of S-VHS decks only enable their filters when playing tapes. So maybe the 3d comb filter isn't applied in pass through mode?

Very true.

[danno78]

The first image show comb filter from JVC S-VHS vcr with DigiPure. The spec claim to have 3D comb filter but the test reveal a good 2D adaptive comb filter. So, maybe is not active in passthrough mode the 3D comb filter or is not 3D.
DVD Player composite OUT >> JVC VCR composite input>> capture card S-Video input

Second picture show additional cleaning made by 3D comb filter from capture card
DVD Player composite OUT >> JVC vcr composite input>> capture card composite input

Picture No. 3 show the comb filter from Panasonic ES15
DVD player >> Panasonic ES 15 composite input

Picture No.4 show Hi8 camcorder composite OUT >> composite input JVC vcr S-Video output >> capture card S-Video input

[mammo1789]

Thanks danno78 for those samples, may I ask what tv card you have that seems to have the best comb filter of them all. I also noticed that panasonic dmr es15 has some comb artifacts that i didn't noticed them in my setup i will do some test with Wilcox and upload them here

[danno78]

The card it is built by me and is not available to purchase in stores, but if want one then I can make one. There are some card with 3D comb filter. ATI550, ATI650, ATI750 have 3D comb filter. 650 and 750 have the best 3D comb filter that have seen built in TV Tuners cards but have some issues with AGC and color processor unit with some sources/setup, so may be not a good choice. The 550 is free from this issues but the 3D comb filter is an earlier generation and a bit weaker.

Here is ATI550 in the same setup as above. It is good but compared with my card, my card has the edge. Also my card have some features that are unavailable in ATI cards or other cards: TBC, frame synchronizer, can capture NTSC tapes with regular PAL vcr - PAL60 support, can capture tapes protected by Macrovision.
DVD Player composite OUT >> JVC vcr composite input>> ATI550 capture card composite input

[lordsmurf]

AG1980 and HS1000 are very old vcr.

I disagree. The AG-1980 was still in production as recent as 2006.
Granted, the model design is at least a decade old, but the units themselves are not.

[NJRoadfan]

I disagree. The AG-1980 was still in production as recent as 2006.
Granted, the model design is at least a decade old, but the units themselves are not.

My own research shows that production likely ended at the end of 2001-beginning 2002 (my own unit was built October 2001). Panasonic yanked the model off their website in mid-2002. Anything sold after that was likely new-old-stock. Entry level Professional/Industrial SVHS VCRs weren't hot sellers in 2001, most of the wedding videographer market had migrated to DV by then. Professional SVHS needs were filled by the AG-DS555/545 editors which Panasonic kept in production until at least 2003 or so, maybe longer.

[ironwood321]

Please refer to this post for information regarding the X-Card https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/286099-Blackmagic-Intensity-Pro-Can-t-capture-from-...=1#post2209310

[mammo1789]

Please refer to this post for information regarding the X-Card https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...=1#post2209310

Thanks ironwood321 for the info, I find it fishy that some one had build the card by himself (not meaning using parts and assemble it which i done it hundred of times ). Hiding info about the product is nontechnical at least, and it is contrary to this web site legacy