Mainconcept Refernce guide or templates?

[LSchafroth]

I am trying out MainConcept Reference instead of ProCoder 3. Does anyone have any good guides or templates to use for converting to DVD? ProCoder converts to a separate video and ac3 audio. MC seems to put them both into a single MPG file.

I also see a lot of areas to tweak inside of MC and have no idea where to begin.

Lannie

[hech54]

There is a DVD preset (DVD/SVCD Consumer MPEG2) that I believe defaults to 6000kbps - from there you just choose your audio preference. Just make sure it doesn't also default to the wrong video format(PAL or NTSC). I also often check my BFF or TFF settings if I'm going from ultra high bitrate mpeg2 captures down to normal-human bitrates after processing/filtering.
You can also frameserve to it via installing AviSynth and using the .avs filetype (out of VirtualDub for instance).

[LSchafroth]

I did a conversion with ProCoder 3 with CQ and a bitrate of 8000. The result was a 1.83Gbz file.

I did the same conversion with Mainconcept with CQ and 8000 and the file was 6.88Gb in size!!

What the heck is MC doing???

Lannie

[El Heggunte]

[ ............ ]

[themaster1]

Good choice mainconcept ref is the best mpeg2 encoder out there in my opinion. color accuracy, sharpness it's a must-have, much better than procoder if you ask me

I use it mainly for vhs to dvd convertions so with high bitrate i use these settings:

ntsc / 54.94i / 720x480 / 4/3 / 2pass / P/Q= 24 / variable= 8000/9500
picture struct: interlaced frame
field order: top field
profile: main , level: main
i-frame:3 / max: 15 / p-frame:3 closed gop:0 / leading b's: not at start / auto gop: scd refined
chroma: 4.2.0 / dc precision: 10bit / prediction dct: field based / quant. scale: non linear / vlc format: B.15 /scanning order: alternate /
motion estimation: sub pix: half , search: 11 , search range: 39 / noise sens.:4
quant matrices: i enable all of them, keep the default values
miscellaneous: incoming field order: top field (change this if you have bff video)

remember i use this for noisy vhs videos if you have pristine footage you may want to change a few settings especially in the motion estimation part

[LSchafroth]

but why is Mainconcept so WAYYYYY off in file size? ProCoder is doing a MUCH better job of creating realistic files.

[lordsmurf]

Your encoding settings are probably not well tuned for that desired size.
I'd have to see every setting in order to suggest something better.

It sounds like I need to write a guide for MainConcept Reference.

[LSchafroth]

I was hoping for better results with MC. I thought the default settings would at least yield expected results.
I'm kind of surprised as to how far off MC is.

I think I will have to wait for a guide.

Lannie

[hech54]

Can you be ANY more vague about what you are doing.....all the while bashing the program?

[LSchafroth]

Bashing? Where did you get that from? I've been very open about it and that maybe I could be doing something wrong. I'm using both programs with default settings. Pro Coder gave expected results, MC gave very strange results so that is where it is at.

Doing a 720x480 progressive conversion. VHS captured via ADVC-100.

Wanted to see how MC compared to PC3. Please done overreact, so instead please give me advice on why MC is acting the way it is so I can give it a fair test.

I've always heard that MC is a great product and I want to see how it looks, but cant view it if it cant produce a file that fits on a DVD.

Lannie

[themaster1]

difficult to answer you if you don't provide the settings you use but if you would actually read the manual (help > user guide) you would find plenty of information to begin with.

for progressive images you should use the zigzag scanning order (advanced settings) for instance

[LSchafroth]

If I change it to Progressive or it does that for mew, how come it doesnt default to settings that work best for progressive video?

I think I'm so new to MC I need a guide!! I will read through the help and see what I can figure out. It shouldnt be this hard to create a basic DVD compliant file to test. I am willing to try so I can see MC results compared to PC3. Just need to get a file under 4.3Gb to test with.

Lannie

[_Al_]

I'm wondering how many inputs you give out there until you start to post actual screens with your settings or to give out something concrete .

[LSchafroth]

Why would I post pictures of my settings when I have already stated I am using the DEFAULT settings for DVD output. If you want the settings I am using, then click on DVD as the output and dont change anything. That would give you the DEFAULT settings I am using.

One trend I have discovered on this site is people love to jump in and bash someone when they are here to get help. Please keep in mind, I am asking for help hince the title GUIDE or TEMPLATE. That means I dont know how to use MC's advanced features and need help.

The only thing I can think of that causes MC to create a huge file is the button to choose the desired output size. The size it creates always corrolates to this size. I dont know the desired size and that is why I want it to product the best resulting file without unneeded compression. PC did this just fine and produced a 1.8Gb file. If I give it more bitrate it goes up to 2.2Gb easily fitting on a DVD.

MC does NOT do that, so thats where I still stand, no idea why.

[_Al_]

Not really, people love to learn, it is for free in here, and I want to know what is going on here. I never tested MainConcept Reference myself, therefore wondering what is going on here, curiosity, that's all. So far there is just two days of talking, mostly complaining, well since I'm involved now,

can I ask you for something ? By CQ ,you mean what ? Constant quality? Perhaps it is something else, because that would make no sense with 8000 bitrate mentioned together.
Secondly, if you have plenty of room, just encode CBR 8000kbps ,why not? Or CQ means CBR in Reference? That would make little sense.

If you need desired size use 2pass VBR and grab some calculator to get your average bitrate. Do you know what I mean ? I'm curious what is your problem, I do not want to bash anyone.

[Steve(MS)]

Why hasn't it occurred to you that they would like to see your input source run through mediainfo?
Remember you are the one seeking help, why make it harder for yourself to get it?

[smrpix]

The only thing I can think of that causes MC to create a huge file is the button to choose the desired output size. The size it creates always corrolates to this size.

Sounds like you said your desired filesize is 4.29 Gb. Why not set it to that?

More details would really help folks help you.

For starters, how long is your show?

[manono]

I dont know the desired size and that is why I want it to product (sic) the best resulting file without unneeded compression.

You know of course, don't you, that sentence makes no sense at all? You say it has constant quality settings. Can't you use that to achieve the quality you want? Of course, then there's no telling in advance what the final size might be. If it's too large, then do a CQ encode, perhaps with a different quantisation matrix, since themaster1 says it has a choice of those. But it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get the best of both worlds - the best resulting file without unneeded compression. Of course, standard VBR encoding for a specific size, depending on your settings, produces a file without unneeded compression. But the quality may or may not be up to your standards.

You might read the included manual a few times to help you understand the settings better. Then come back here with more specific questions about something you don't understand.

[LSchafroth]

I think you found the problem for me. I was choosing "Constant" from the bitrate setting thinking it was constant quality like ProCoder uses. The clue should have been the requirement for a bitrate value and I missed that. MC words it as Constant Quantization instead.

By choosing the constant and thinking it was constant quality I was expecting a variable size on the output depending on the length and quality of the footage. Instead it was taking the max file size setting every time.

I am running it now with Constant Quantization setting and will see what the end results are. SO obvious when you see it now and I missed all the signs. lol
PS: the file length is 1:42:08

[_Al_]

I was choosing "Constant" from the bitrate setting thinking it was constant quality like ProCoder uses.

CQ in procoder is Constant Quality also not Constant bitrate settings. You set max bitrate, not average and then you set quantization, Procoder has a slider for it (from 0 to 1). Not sure how Constant Quality settings with about 8000 max set (has to be for DVD) will help you to encode DVD (tight space for you), you can squeeze or juice out all space available and encode 2pass VBR. You can never target space with CQ.

If you have posted picture of your settings or you write it down it would be clear right away, BTW. Because those 8000kbps mentioned by you ment max bitrate not average. Couple of numbers and it would be clear

Encode it 2pass VBR average 8000, max 8300, min (whatever you decide). By encoding CQ and trying to target capacity of DVD , you will not get a better quality, so why don't you just encode it 2pass VBR with average for given time , you do it once and done, no other CQ settings can beat that.
https://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm
you will get something like 5600kbps, you'll need to include audio also, perhaps you have menu etc...

[LSchafroth]

I will use VBR on the final product. I was doing Constant quality on both so I would have what I thought would be an equal comparison between the two products. I like how MC has the destination size calculator built in. Will use that a lot.

I chose 8000 because that is the default ProCoder used and wanted to keep it the same in MC. I was getting myself confused between Constant CQ and CBR which added to the confusion!

Lannie

[LSchafroth]

The latest run by MC failed miserably. Got a 182Mb file that looks like a horrible youtube video.
Tim to just encode it with ProCoder and get it done.

Will experiment with MC some other day. Maybe when there is a guide to help us newbies. hint.....hint...


EDIT: Glad I came back to it and tried it again. Wasnt getting good results due to my lack of knowledge. Results I'm getting now are awesome!

[_Al_]

[Encode it 2pass VBR average 8000, max 8300,.....

there is a mistake ,instead of those 8000 there should be number going out of that bitrate calculator, do not want to confuse you

The latest run by MC failed miserably. Got a 182Mb file that looks like a horrible youtube video.
Tim to just encode it with ProCoder and get it done.

Will experiment with MC some other day. Maybe when there is a guide to help us newbies. hint.....hint...

you are doing exactly the same, no data and reporting some fail

[LSchafroth]

I've given enough information to tell what my goal is for testing and you have given me the roll of the eyes and other useless responses. How many instructions have you given to get the result or goal I was looking for? ZERO.

[LSchafroth]

The goal was to see if MC was better than ProCoder3. Out of the box ProCoder gives you exactly what you want. MC does not. I wanted to see for myself how MC did and so far it fails miserably. It is most likely because I am not familiar with MC but when PC3 just works, and provides great results and MC does not, why switch?

Lannie

[_Al_]

Look , answer this, you are testing two encoders by trying to encode CQ, Procoder has quantizer set with slider from 0 to 1, what MC reference uses, also slider from 0 to 1 ? If not how do you want to extrapolate one setting to seting for other encoder to supposedly compare them?

[smrpix]

Lannie,

Now that you've discovered more about how both encoders work, you may want to re-read this thread from the top. There's been a LOT of helpful information suggested and good questions asked.

Peace.

[Steve(MS)]

Lannie,

Now that you've discovered more about how both encoders work, you may want to re-read this thread from the top. There's been a LOT of helpful information suggested and good questions asked.

Peace.

Not likely since he wasn't willing to give MC a fair chance and showed contempt for the other posters in this thread.
Hopefully google searches that end up here will see how stupid he acted.

[LSchafroth]

I gave up on trying to get MC to do a constant quality video as it appears I have no idea how to get it to do that. I did the VBR and used the built in calculator and it created a file 800Mb too big so I did it again with a smaller calculation and it will now fit on a DVD. I did the same VBR settings on ProCoder3 and I must say the MC video looks sharper. Crisp and no blur on motion like the PC version does.

Thanks for all the ones who helped. The others, well.... it would go over there head. lol

Thanks everyone. Looks like MC it is.

[LSchafroth]

Good choice mainconcept ref is the best mpeg2 encoder out there in my opinion. color accuracy, sharpness it's a must-have, much better than procoder if you ask me

I use it mainly for vhs to dvd convertions so with high bitrate i use these settings:

ntsc / 54.94i / 720x480 / 4/3 / 2pass / P/Q= 24 / variable= 8000/9500
picture struct: interlaced frame
field order: top field
profile: main , level: main
i-frame:3 / max: 15 / p-frame:3 closed gop:0 / leading b's: not at start / auto gop: scd refined
chroma: 4.2.0 / dc precision: 10bit / prediction dct: field based / quant. scale: non linear / vlc format: B.15 /scanning order: alternate /
motion estimation: sub pix: half , search: 11 , search range: 39 / noise sens.:4
quant matrices: i enable all of them, keep the default values
miscellaneous: incoming field order: top field (change this if you have bff video)

remember i use this for noisy vhs videos if you have pristine footage you may want to change a few settings especially in the motion estimation part

How did I miss this post?? This is excellent information. One reason to not use my phone to read the forums I guess.
The footage is not pristine but good. I had fantastic results with the MC VBR 2 pass using all default settings for progressive DVD.
The default settings do not enable the zig zag feature mentioned earlier so I still need to try that to see how much difference it makes.

Are there any of the settings you offer above in need of change if using progressive instead of interlaced? Besides the obvious field orders one of course.

I noticed MC is Much faster at encoding than ProCoder 3 is. I have 8 cores and PC3 doesnt appears to be spiking all of them like MC does.

Lannie