How do I configure a DVR with a digital cable set top box?

[Endzone]

Back in the "good ole days" things were so simple. Around 1989 I bought a good JVC VCR. I had analog cable service. I just simply put the coax cable from my cable service into the RF input of the VCR and ran a coax cable out of the VCR to the input of the TV. Sure, I used component output (Video Audio L/R) from the VCR to the TV for better playback. But the tuner on the VCR just captured the channel I wanted to record while I watched a different show with the tuner on the TV. Both tuners in both units were the standard 6-MHz wide NTSC analog channels. Life was so simple.

Now, all people live in a general state of confusion regarding their TV service--at least I do and I've been a radio technician all my life! Here's the deal. I'm considering buying this new Magnavox DVR model MDR533H/F7:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-320GB-HDD-and-DVD-Recorder-with-Digital-Tuner/20710260

Cable companies now seem to insist that you rent their set top box in order for them to increase their profits and to make their service more secure by encrypting signals and having more control over what you are allowed to see via the set top box. To my way of thinking, and I could be wrong about this, this means I need to have the DVR behind the set top box and I will be at the mercy of whatever the set top box is tuned to. So, I can't record on one channel and watch TV on the other. If I want to record a TV show with the DVR, this means I need to have the set top box on and tuned to the show I want to record?

I would much prefer to put the DVR in front of the set top box (it does have a QAM64 tuner/demodulator for cable frequencies) and just select my recordings from there. But, since some cable signals are encrypted, I can't do that? Can somebody help the old man out here. What am I missing? Thanks.

[Endzone]

More to my point as of 7/2012 everybody is required to have a set top box or the eqivalent. Why? Just because they are using QAM64 modulation on their 6-MHz wide channels instead of NTSC? So what? The frequencies they use haven't changed and the bandwidth hasn't changed--right? TVs and DVR's now have these QAM64 tuners/demodulators that work on the same frequencies the cable comanies are broadcasting on. I don't get it.

https://digitalnow.comcast.com/About_Digital_Update.aspx

[jagabo]

I would much prefer to put the DVR in front of the set top box (it does have a QAM64 tuner/demodulator for cable frequencies) and just select my recordings from there. But, since some cable signals are encrypted, I can't do that?

That is correct. The QAM tuner in the DVR will only tune unencrypted signals. That's usually limited to your local broadcast stations and a few others like CSPAN, shopping channels, etc.

More to my point as of 7/2012 everybody is required to have a set top box or the eqivalent. Why?

To force you to rent a PVR from the cable company.

Just because they are using QAM64 modulation on their 6-MHz wide channels instead of NTSC? So what? The frequencies they use haven't changed and the bandwidth hasn't changed--right? TVs and DVR's now have these QAM64 tuners/demodulators that work on the same frequencies the cable comanies are broadcasting on. I don't get it.

The bandwidth of a single SD analog channel can carry 2 to 12 HD/SD QAM channels.

A Cablecard based device will allow you to receive/record encrypted QAM channels. Generally, those recordings will only be playable on the device that recorded them (they are encrypted on the drive).

[usually_quiet]

Back in the "good ole days" things were so simple. Around 1989 I bought a good JVC VCR. I had analog cable service. I just simply put the coax cable from my cable service into the RF input of the VCR and ran a coax cable out of the VCR to the input of the TV. Sure, I used component output (Video Audio L/R) from the VCR to the TV for better playback. But the tuner on the VCR just captured the channel I wanted to record while I watched a different show with the tuner on the TV. Both tuners in both units were the standard 6-MHz wide NTSC analog channels. Life was so simple.

Now, all people live in a general state of confusion regarding their TV service--at least I do and I've been a radio technician all my life! Here's the deal. I'm considering buying this new Magnavox DVR model MDR533H/F7:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-320GB-HDD-and-DVD-Recorder-with-Digital-Tuner/20710260

Cable companies now seem to insist that you rent their set top box in order for them to increase their profits and to make their service more secure by encrypting signals and having more control over what you are allowed to see via the set top box. To my way of thinking, and I could be wrong about this, this means I need to have the DVR behind the set top box and I will be at the mercy of whatever the set top box is tuned to. So, I can't record on one channel and watch TV on the other. If I want to record a TV show with the DVR, this means I need to have the set top box on and tuned to the show I want to record?

I would much prefer to put the DVR in front of the set top box (it does have a QAM64 tuner/demodulator for cable frequencies) and just select my recordings from there. But, since some cable signals are encrypted, I can't do that? Can somebody help the old man out here. What am I missing? Thanks.

The purpose of the encryption is to discourage people from tapping into cable lines illegally. In addition, cable boxes allow cable providers to shut off service remotely in the event the customer does not pay his bill, so they don't have to send out a truck to physically disconnect the line. Since cable providers also derive significant revenues from set-top box rentals, it's a win all the way around for them.

It is likely that you are going to need to connect the Magnavox DVD recorder to a cable box to record anything on cable in the near future

Last year the FCC voted to allow their requirement for analog basic cable to expire in June 2012. On Friday the FCC voted to allow encryption of digital basic cable channels. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-12-126A1.pdf.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-12/cable-operators-can-fight-theft-by-encrypting...fcc-rules.html
http://www.multichannel.com/cable-operators/fcc-votes-lift-ban-digital-basic-tier-encryption/139766

Comcast analog basic cable was shut off here in late May, and I expect unencrypted digital basic cable service to be eliminated within a few months.

[web_maven]

Creating a PC-DVR always sounds like a great idea. The interface is better and is more flexible. The problem I always found was if you got it to work you could not record the channels and there was no direct way to change channels. So you need a IR blast to change the cable box at least for me in the end the DVR from the cable company was the best choice. I use my Xbox 360 as a gaming system and use it to watch videos on my server as well as Hulu and Netflix. I leave recording shows to my cable company DVR.

[jagabo]

Creating a PC-DVR always sounds like a great idea. The interface is better and is more flexible. The problem I always found was if you got it to work you could not record the channels and there was no direct way to change channels.

That is why you need a CableCard tuner like the SiliconDust HDHomerun Prime, Ceton infiniTV4, or Hauppauge WinTV-DCR-2650.

With those device you still have to rent a CableCard from the cable company. If you're lucky, it will only cost a few dollars a month (we pay $2.50). If you're unlucky, it will cost as much as renting the cable company's PVR.

[Endzone]

It is likely that you are going to need to connect the Magnavox DVD recorder to a cable box to record anything on cable in the near future

Alright, let's go on that assumption. I've never subscribed to digital cable or had a set top box. This means the DVR will go in front of the set top box or behind it? Since everything but basic channels are encrypted, it seems to me the DVR must go behind the set top box. Now, the set top box only outputs one channel at a time--right? The set top box isn't going to pass all the channels I've subscribed to unencrypted is it? It is only going to pass one channel at a time--right? Is that output on composite or component outputs? There is no RF output from the set top box is there?

So, if that is right, this means I need to have the set top box on and tuned to the channel I want to record with the DVR?

[sanlyn]

Use the s-video output on the back of the box. If no s-video, use the composite video output. You also need a left/right audio cable.

[jagabo]

This means the DVR will go in front of the set top box or behind it? Since everything but basic channels are encrypted, it seems to me the DVR must go behind the set top box.

wall ---> cable box ---> DVR

Now, the set top box only outputs one channel at a time--right?

Yes.

The set top box isn't going to pass all the channels I've subscribed to unencrypted is it?

Standard definition analog outputs are usually unprotected. Except for subscription channels.

It is only going to pass one channel at a time--right? Is that output on composite or component outputs?

Depends on your cable box. The cable box we used to have would not output HDMI and component at the same time. HDMI and composite were ok.

So, if that is right, this means I need to have the set top box on and tuned to the channel I want to record with the DVR?

Yes. Some recorders have IR blasters that simulate a remote control. Those can turn the cable box on and switch to the correct channel. Get a second cable box dedicated for use with the PVR.

[usually_quiet]

It is likely that you are going to need to connect the Magnavox DVD recorder to a cable box to record anything on cable in the near future

Alright, let's go on that assumption. I've never subscribed to digital cable or had a set top box. This means the DVR will go in front of the set top box or behind it? Since everything but basic channels are encrypted, it seems to me the DVR must go behind the set top box. Now, the set top box only outputs one channel at a time--right? The set top box isn't going to pass all the channels I've subscribed to unencrypted is it? It is only going to pass one channel at a time--right? Is that output on composite or component outputs? There is no RF output from the set top box is there?

So, if that is right, this means I need to have the set top box on and tuned to the channel I want to record with the DVR?

Yes, the cable box must tune all channels, which means it will be connected to the coax cable from the wall. Your Maganavox DVD recorder will have to be connected to one of the standard definition outputs from the cable box.

There are up to 3 choices for the video connection from the cable box to the Magnavox DVD recorder. Choice #1 is, as sanlyn said, preferred. That is S-video, a round mini-DIN 4 pin connection, which relatively few new standard definition cable boxes now provide. (Some high definition cable boxes and a few older model standard definition cable boxes do have it.) Choice #2 is a yellow RCA port, composite video. Both the above choices use the red and white RCA stereo ports for audio.

There is a third choice, which is the only choice for the free DTA boxes handed out to basic cable subscribers. That choice is coax-out from the DTA box, which provides video and audio for the single channel the DTA box is tuned to, on channel 3, like a VCR. In that case the Magnavox recorder tunes analog channel 3 to record.

[Endzone]

Thank you fellows for your answers. I must say I am really disappointed in the state that satellite/cable TV has evolved to. It is all for the benefit of the satellite/cable people and a loss for the U.S. consumer. My last service was analog in Seattle, WA in 2000. 12 years later, I see that things have really gone downhill. I think the same thing is true for the TV broadcast industry--this was just a huge bandwidth grab in the 600MHz and 700MHz bands and degrading the picture bandwidth from 6MHz to 2MHz in the VHS band.

But I will save my speech on this for another post. Here's another kicker regarding cable TV. Let's say I do stay with the channel I'm recording to the end. I can't change channels or it would change my recording. Well, I may not be able to transfer the file on the HDD to a DVD. A lot of these files are copy protected:

The disappearing DVD Recorder:
http://hometheater.about.com/od/dvdbasics/qt/the_case_of_the_disappearing_dvd_recorder.htm

So in one word this whole thing sucks IMHO. I want to go back to the old days when the consumer was more important than the broadcasters. In 1989 I had a nice Sony 27" XBR TV with CRT, I had a great VCR which was a JVC HR-750U, and I used an outdoor antenna that received the full 6MHz wide NTSC analog channels, and it was a BEAUTIFUL picture on my TV--better than any digitally modulated (chopped) signal that is broadcast today. A Sony XBR Squared TV would have looked even better. There was just a little bit of noise on the 6MHz cable channels because of the nature of a lower S/N ratio with broadcasting over a cable rather than the air.

Alright, but that's just my little speech. You don't have to agree with me. Let me ask another question if you don't mind. Some cable TV shows can't be burned to a DVD from the HDD on your DVR. OK, I could output component video from the set top box into the component inputs of a nice VCR like the JVC HR-S9600U. That would work--right? I would still have to have the set top box set on the same channel and make sure it is on when the VCR turns on to record. That is the part that really sucks IMHO. I wouldn't be able to change channels on the set top box during the recording while viewing TV.

[usually_quiet]

Alright, but that's just my little speech. You don't have to agree with me. Let me ask another question if you don't mind. Some cable TV shows can't be burned to a DVD from the HDD on your DVR. OK, I could output component video from the set top box into the component inputs of a nice VCR like the JVC HR-S9600U. That would work--right?

I downloaded the manual for the JVC HR-S9600U. You can't connect the component video outputs from the set top box to the component inputs of the the JVC HR-S9600U. It does not have any component video connections. It has stereo audio, S-Video, and composite video inputs and outputs, so you'll have to be content with those.

If you are not recording a premium channel like HBO, or a paid on-demand movie, or a paid on demand sporting event, you will be able to record with the VCR. Things like premium channels and on-demand programming that you pay extra to receive may have MacroVision protection applied which will prevent the VCR from recording.

I would still have to have the set top box set on the same channel and make sure it is on when the VCR turns on to record. That is the part that really sucks IMHO. I wouldn't be able to change channels on the set top box during the recording while viewing TV.

Yes. The cable box must be set to the channel you want to record. If you want to watch a different channel, you will need a second cable box for the TV.

[Endzone]

Alright, but that's just my little speech. You don't have to agree with me. Let me ask another question if you don't mind. Some cable TV shows can't be burned to a DVD from the HDD on your DVR. OK, I could output component video from the set top box into the component inputs of a nice VCR like the JVC HR-S9600U. That would work--right?

I downloaded the manual for the JVC HR-S9600U. You can't connect the component video outputs from the set top box to the component inputs of the the JVC HR-S9600U. It does not have any component video connections. It has stereo audio, S-Video, and composite video inputs and outputs, so you'll have to be content with those.

If you are not recording a premium channel like HBO, or a paid on-demand movie, or a paid on demand sporting event, you will be able to record with the VCR. Things like premium channels and on-demand programming that you pay extra to receive may have MacroVision protection applied which will prevent the VCR from recording.

I would still have to have the set top box set on the same channel and make sure it is on when the VCR turns on to record. That is the part that really sucks IMHO. I wouldn't be able to change channels on the set top box during the recording while viewing TV.

Yes. The cable box must be set to the channel you want to record. If you want to watch a different channel, you will need a second cable box for the TV.

Thanks usually_quiet for the info. I appreciate it. I guess my complaining about the state of affairs isn't going to help is it? Haha. Sorry, but I always get component and composite outputs mixed up. And I guess S-Video isn't the same thing as S-VHS. So unless I'm going to use the Magnavox DVR with the built in ATSC tuner for over-the-air broadcasts, the tuning section in the Magnavox DVR is really worthless given the current state of the art. I would never have to go through the tuner, but it would be bypassed with component video or composite video output from the set top box.

In the good old days Macrovision on VHS tapes just kind of distored the video, but it was still watchable. I had a $49 Macrovision buster that worked just fine on VHS tapes that were recorded in Macrovision. I could go into another speel here about how Hollywood sought to downgrade every VCR by forcing people to watch going through the tuning section of their TV rather than composite video out from the VCR. Everybody had to downgrade the quality of their video just so Hollywood could stop you from recording VHS tape to VHS tape via composite output/input? It was ridiculous. But, I'm guessing that Macrovision today is not the same Macrovision of yesterday? Are there units to place between the set top box composite output and the composite input of the VCR? I don't subscribe to HBO or other PPV jazz on cable anyway.

Thanks for your assistance.

BTW, I could record the basic channel lineup by using the QAM tuner in the Magnavox--right? These channels aren't encrypted I don't think. This way I could put the Magnavox DVR in front of the Set Top Box and just use the timer on the Magnavox DVR to select the right channel and time to record. What is the talk on the other thread about the Magnavox timer not being able to select channel 7.2, 7.3, etc? Those are channel numbers for ATSC off-air tuning. Those aren't NTSC channels or QAM channels. The numbering for those remains 1 to 1,000 I think.

Thanks,
Craig in Ft. Worth, TX

[sanlyn]

Sorry, but I always get component and composite outputs mixed up.

The two connections don't even look alike:

Component video: Red + Green + Blue
Composite video: Yellow

the audio is the same for both: Red (right channel + white (left channel)

Component can carry HD video. Composite can't.

And I guess S-Video isn't the same thing as S-VHS.

S-VHS is a tape format. S-VHS player required.
S-video is a type of signal transmission. It transmits whatever video your s-video output device will give to it, including VHS, S-VHS, DVD, cable box output, etc..

So unless I'm going to use the Magnavox DVR with the built in ATSC tuner for over-the-air broadcasts, the tuning section in the Magnavox DVR is really worthless given the current state of the art.

It's getting to be that way. Cable companies are in the process of encrypting their entire channel line-up. Digital box required.

In the good old days Macrovision on VHS tapes just kind of distored the video, but it was still watchable.

I have to disagree with you there.

I had a $49 Macrovision buster that worked just fine on VHS tapes that were recorded in Macrovision. I could go into another speel here about how Hollywood sought to downgrade every VCR by forcing people to watch going through the tuning section of their TV rather than composite video out from the VCR. I watched my VCR's straight thru their composite oputput to my TV set. Everybody had to downgrade the quality of their video just so Hollywood could stop you from recording VHS tape to VHS tape via composite output/input? It was ridiculous. But, I'm guessing that Macrovision today is not the same Macrovision of yesterday? Are there units to place between the set top box composite output and the composite input of the VCR? I don't subscribe to HBO or other PPV jazz on cable anyway.

Macrovision on commercial tapes is still pretty much the same. Copy protection on cable TV broadcasts and BluRay is another story.

Good ol' VHS MAcrovision can be defeated with a frame-level tbc. They cost more than the $49 cheapie, which is guaranteed to look like crap after a digital encoder gets finished struggling with it, so be prepared to spend about $200 and up for a decent consumer-grade frame tbc. Macrovision is also ignored by many DVD recorders used as line-tbc pass-thru devices into a PC or another DVD recorder.

BTW, I could record the basic channel lineup by using the QAM tuner in the Magnavox--right?

Not for long. Cable companies are encrypting everything and requiring viewers to rent their box. If it hasn't happened in your area yet, be patient. It will.

The distance you place your DVD recorder from your cable box depends on the length of your connecting cables. They're commonly sold from 3 to 50 feet. If you need longer, those are available as well.

[Endzone]

sanlyn, thank you for taking the time to answer all my questions. I really appreciate it. I've been out of the loop for about 12 years on this. This info that you and others have given me really helps out. I would of had to do a lot of research to do this, and you all saved me a lot of time and effort. Thanks.

My last time on here I was converting all my VHS tapes to digital video, and I got a lot of good info then as well. This was in 2008, and that project turned out great as I made many DVDs and also sent hundreds of emails and Facebook postings of VHS clips from 1989-1993 to about 50 different people.

I don't like the way cable, satellite, and off-air has evolved over the last several years. It seems to me it has all moved in favor of the broadcasters and hurt the consumer. Just throw that buzz word "digital" in there, and everybody lays down for it. Do you remember in the 90's the buzz was that broadcast TV was going to broadcast in HD format on 12MHz wide NTSC channels instead of the current 6Mhz wide NTSC channels? Well, how did that work out for you if you still get your TV off-air? Instead of HD channels, we didn't even get to keep our 6MHz NTSC modulated channels. I still argue that if you display a good 6MHz NTSC channel on a good TV using an outdoor log-periodic antenna and compare that to a 2Mhz wide digital channel that the 6MHz NTSC video is better. You may disagree. Anyway, the consumer lost 12MHz off-air HD signals. The consumer lost 6MHz NTSC channels, and the consumer got 2MHz wide distored (digitally modulated) channels. They can't even be viewed in fringe areas because the signal just cuts completely out at times. The consumer lost out on a lot of choices in VCRs and DVRs because so few were willing to include ATSC tuners in their units. And it made their old machines that had NTSC tuners much more difficult to use.

Well, that's my speel about that, and nobody probably cares too much. It seems that cable and satellite TV have also moved towards what is good for the cable companies and not in the direction of what is good for the consumer. Just go before congress or any court and say your new service is "digital" and you win.

Sorry to rant on, but I do appreciate everybody's input.

Regards,

[usually_quiet]

BTW, I could record the basic channel lineup by using the QAM tuner in the Magnavox--right? These channels aren't encrypted I don't think. This way I could put the Magnavox DVR in front of the Set Top Box and just use the timer on the Magnavox DVR to select the right channel and time to record.

Even if you can use the Magnavox DVD recorder's clear QAM tuner today, you won't be able to much longer.

Since the day it was put into effect, cable providers offering digital service have been trying to get rid of the FCC rule requiring them to leave some digital channels unencrypted for basic cable subscribers. On October 12, 2012 the FCC granted their wish. Your provider is now free to encrypt all channels, as long as subscribers have been notified that they need a cable box to watch cable TV. So, given that you have been told recently that you must get a cable box, it is safe to assume your provider is planning to encrypt everything in the very near future.

What is the talk on the other thread about the Magnavox timer not being able to select channel 7.2, 7.3, etc? Those are channel numbers for ATSC off-air tuning. Those aren't NTSC channels or QAM channels. The numbering for those remains 1 to 1,000 I think.

Since I have digital cable and have tuned clear QAM channels directly, I can tell you for certain that you are wrong. 1 to 1000 numbering without any sub-channels only applies to the channel assignments your cable box uses. If you tune them directly, clear QAM digital cable channels are numbered with a virtual channel and sub-channel number similar to ATSC over-the air. Many sub-channels can be assigned to each virtual QAM channel and the sub-channels need not be sequential. If there is a gap in the sequence of subchannels, the Magnavox DVD recorders have a firmware bug that causes timed recordings to fail for all but the primary sub-channel (the primary sub-channel number is 1).

In other words get used to the idea of using the cable box for everything, period end of story.

[sanlyn]

I don't like the way cable, satellite, and off-air has evolved over the last several years. It seems to me it has all moved in favor of the broadcasters and hurt the consumer. Just throw that buzz word "digital" in there, and everybody lays down for it. Do you remember in the 90's the buzz was that broadcast TV was going to broadcast in HD format on 12MHz wide NTSC channels instead of the current 6Mhz wide NTSC channels?

Sure do. But the promise that stands out most in my memory was when I picked up my first digital cable box at the company's store, and the salesman gave me this really smug, smart-butt smile and said, "You'll like digital better. It doesn't have any noise." Unless you're blind as a bat (and most consumers are damn near that blind), you would have known the guy didn't have a clue.

[Endzone]

In other words get used to the idea of using the cable box for everything, period end of story.

Yes, I see your point. I guess one could just ditch cable and use the ATSC tuner in the DVR to record and the ATSC tuner in the TV to watch the 30 or 40 off-air channels. And you could record and watch a different show at the same time--just like the good ole days I keep refering to. But that would mean no more ESPN college football games, no more Fox News, and no more watching the comedians on MSNBC.

You know I went to lunch with some friends last Thursday, and I was shocked to learn that most of them are paying between $100 and $140/month for the cable TV service. And that didn't include the high speed internet! My last sub for analog extended basic in 2000 was like $37/month when I lived in Seattle. Even back then they were forcing people to take the set top box. I said I didn't want it, but the guy insisted. So, I removed it and used the tuner in my VCR and TV. Back then everything was still NTSC 6MHz channels. I took the set top box back to one of their offices.

The cable companies have got you where they want you now. With forcing everybody to use the set top box, they are in complete control, and they don't even have to do a truck roll. They get all the set top boxes made in Mexico and China very cheap. Thousands of U.S. workers lost their jobs because of this. I remember one outfit here in Dallas that laid of hundreds of workers when they shipped production to Mexico. I'll guess all the line amplifiers/repeaters and modulators/demodulators and frequency translators at the distribution hubs are made offshore too.

But anyway, set top box for everything, DVR behind set top box, DVR only records channel set top box is set too, I can't watch another show while DVR is recording, set top box must be turned on and set to channel to record if I'm going to be away. Then a lot of programs recorded to DVR HDD can't be transferred to DVD disc because they are copy protected. All this for $100/month with the fox sports package and one extra premium channel. What a deal.

[Endzone]

I don't like the way cable, satellite, and off-air has evolved over the last several years. It seems to me it has all moved in favor of the broadcasters and hurt the consumer. Just throw that buzz word "digital" in there, and everybody lays down for it. Do you remember in the 90's the buzz was that broadcast TV was going to broadcast in HD format on 12MHz wide NTSC channels instead of the current 6Mhz wide NTSC channels?

Sure do. But the promise that stands out most in my memory was when I picked up my first digital cable box at the company's store, and the salesman gave me this really smug, smart-butt smile and said, "You'll like digital better. It doesn't have any noise." Unless you're blind as a bat (and most consumers are damn near that blind), you would have known the guy didn't have a clue.

Yea wonderful. The noise floor is lower, but the video quality is worse because you're only going to get a 2MHz wide channel and it is digitally modulated to narrow the bandwidth--not to improve picture quality. I guess he left that part out. With over-the-air you got a low noise floor and great video quality with 6MHz analog channels and a good log-periodic outdoor antenna. And there was the occasional power line interference on channels 2-7.

[jagabo]

I don't like the way cable, satellite, and off-air has evolved over the last several years. It seems to me it has all moved in favor of the broadcasters and hurt the consumer.

It's happening across all business, not just TV. For example shrink wrap and click-through software licenses that you can't even read before you've opened the product. Of course, you don't really need to read them because you know they basically say "We don't guaranty this product does anything. If it doesn't work or doesn't do what you think it should do that's your problem. You agree not to take part in any class action lawsuit against us. We got your money, we no longer care about you. In short, you're fucked, we're not".

[jman98]

You know I went to lunch with some friends last Thursday, and I was shocked to learn that most of them are paying between $100 and $140/month for the cable TV service. And that didn't include the high speed internet! My last sub for analog extended basic in 2000 was like $37/month when I lived in Seattle. Even back then they were forcing people to take the set top box. I said I didn't want it, but the guy insisted. So, I removed it and used the tuner in my VCR and TV. Back then everything was still NTSC 6MHz channels. I took the set top box back to one of their offices.

This is actually very common. Unless you just gut the service down to basic channels, which probably won't include some you'd really like to have and no HD at all, it's just about impossible to get costs down to under $50. One of the reasons costs are so high is that the providers bundle channels in groups and it might be that you REALLY want a handful of channels in a bundle, but it will cost you $20 or more for that bundle, then repeat the process for a different bundle and the costs add up. I ended up switching providers to AT&T's Uverse and I'm pretty happy with the service overall, including TV and internet. Some where I live went with the bundle that Comcast offered in our area. You pretty much have to bundle with one provider to save money any money. I previously used Comcast for TV and I was happy with their TV and AT&T just for internet and home phone, but I went with AT&T because their TV bundles met my needs at a lower cost than anything I could get from Comcast. Comcast charged me for everything - need TWO cable boxes instead of one? Extra charge. Oh you want HD channels? Extra on EACH cable box for that. AT&T's pricing is much more straightforward. They just charge one price and don't care how many cable boxes you need.

[usually_quiet]

In other words get used to the idea of using the cable box for everything, period end of story.

Yes, I see your point. I guess one could just ditch cable and use the ATSC tuner in the DVR to record and the ATSC tuner in the TV to watch the 30 or 40 off-air channels. And you could record and watch a different show at the same time--just like the good ole days I keep refering to. But that would mean no more ESPN college football games, no more Fox News, and no more watching the comedians on MSNBC.

You know I went to lunch with some friends last Thursday, and I was shocked to learn that most of them are paying between $100 and $140/month for the cable TV service. And that didn't include the high speed internet! My last sub for analog extended basic in 2000 was like $37/month when I lived in Seattle. Even back then they were forcing people to take the set top box. I said I didn't want it, but the guy insisted. So, I removed it and used the tuner in my VCR and TV. Back then everything was still NTSC 6MHz channels. I took the set top box back to one of their offices.

The cable companies have got you where they want you now. With forcing everybody to use the set top box, they are in complete control, and they don't even have to do a truck roll. They get all the set top boxes made in Mexico and China very cheap. Thousands of U.S. workers lost their jobs because of this. I remember one outfit here in Dallas that laid of hundreds of workers when they shipped production to Mexico. I'll guess all the line amplifiers/repeaters and modulators/demodulators and frequency translators at the distribution hubs are made offshore too.

But anyway, set top box for everything, DVR behind set top box, DVR only records channel set top box is set too, I can't watch another show while DVR is recording, set top box must be turned on and set to channel to record if I'm going to be away. Then a lot of programs recorded to DVR HDD can't be transferred to DVD disc because they are copy protected. All this for $100/month with the fox sports package and one extra premium channel. What a deal.

The FCC imposed restrictive rules on cable in the past because cable companies were essentialy monopolies in their service areas. Plus, when the regulations that required boxless basic cable service were made, a different group of people controlled the FCC. Now that the telcos and satellite services are competing with cable, the FCC sees less need to regulate cable, and the current group of commissioners has more members who are pro-business and anti-regulation to begin with. ...and every member of the commission is probably planning to lobby for the industry that they regulate after their stint at the FCC is completed, so they don't want to endanger their future income by putting the public interest ahead of business interests.

The green spin on basic cable encryption is particularly ludicrous. The energy savings from eliminating a small percentage of truck rolls can't possibly equal the energy consumed by millions of newly required set-top boxes.

I have reasonably good over-the-air reception, so when I bought my first HDTV in February, I connected an amplified indoor antenna to my Magnavox's coax input for local channels and connected my cable box (an old standard definition model with S-Video connections) to its S-Video and stereo audio inputs. The TV is connected to the coax out from the Magnavox so the TV tuner receives over-the air channels as well.

The reason for this arrangement is that my cable provider does not carry all my local channels and it costs less than paying for high definition service. Although Comcast no longer charges more money for an HD cable box than for an SD cable box, they charge a flat $10/month extra for high-definition service to the account.

[jagabo]

Yes, it's now a government "of the corporations by the corporations, for the corporations".

[sanlyn]

I've had to rent two cable boxes: my old digital SD and a newer HD box. About 2 years ago I was using a 2nd tv + digital HD tuner to record onto a 2nd DVD recorder right off the cable line. That was a Toshiba SD recorder; it did record 4:3 only, but the tuner had a setting that let me output 16:9 video squished into a 4:3 frame for the recorder. I could tell the recorder to encode that video with a 16:9 display flag. So I was able to record wide screen with this downsampling tuner via s-video, and it would display as full-frame 16:9 on playback. True, it still was SD resolution, but a TV with excellent upscaling and a fine recorder like the RD-XS34 at high bitrates put out a darn good image on my 42" plasma.

Alas, the cable company decided that all channels would be encrypted, so for that 2nd setup I needed their HD box. The excellent $285 QAM tuner is now useless. Now I can only record 16:9 broadcasts as letterboxed 4:3. Phooey. (I'm solving that problem with a Hauppauge HD PVR and a PC I built for it. But that's still in the works). Meanwhile I'm limited as to what I can record via s-video on that 2nd Toshiba. Some HD stations are output from the box as letterboxed, while 4:3 channels (there are still some around) are full-frame 4:3. That's OK, because the output from that newer box is a lot cleaner and sharper than the same output from the old SD box. But more and more channels are coming into the HD box with-copy-once protection. And more and more 4:3 broadcasts (such as TCM) are coming out of the box with letterbox bars already there, and a 4:3 image is not only letterboxed but pillared as well, so I end up with a 4:3 movie reduced in size and surrounded by black bars on all 4 sides. Double phooey.

I keep the SD box mainly because TCM and many other channels still come out of that SD box without copy protection and in the expected format for all broadcasts. Naturally, the SD box outputs 16:9 material in a letterboxed 4:3 frame. No change there -- for the time being, anyway. But that won't last forever. I'm already seeing some formerly copy-OK stations coming out of that SD box as copy-once. But the new PVR uses component output so I can get HD into it, and it ignores copy protection. So the new PVR + new PC will eventually become my only recording setup, thanks to greed and to Hollywood paranoia. I'm just happy I was able to spend the last 6 or 7 years recording over 2000 DVD's into two DVD recorders for our family library of stuff to watch when we retire and can't afford cable any more -- as well as many classic movies that will never be in commercial print.