Help: Best "Prosumer" Camcorder in the 5000-10000 range?

[murokoma]

Hi guys,

Rob from Switzerland here Found this forum as my research in other places didn't really come up with good results...
Here's my problem.

I'm currently shooting a lot of instructional videos - mostly "whitescreen" videos, but also indoor interviews etc.
I got a little studio set up with professional lighting etc.

I've been using the Panasonic HDC-SD900 camcorder for the past year or so. And while for a consumer camera, I got excellent results from this setup, I'm no longer happy because of the "lens restrictions" of this camera.

The problem is, the camera lacks a "professional" lens system - what I mean by that is that I cannot focus on an object such as a person, and the background would be "out of focus" (take a look at this image: http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/logoboom/logoboom0802/logoboom080200071/2475820-youn...slr-camera.jpg as an example for the effect I'm looking for). The SD900 will always have "everything" in focus.

So now, I'm looking at the "next level", which would be a "prosumer" camera in the 5-10k price range. 10k would really be my max limit, I'd be happier if I could find something below 5k, though.

So I hope any of you guys can give me any recommendations. Most cameras I found on amazon seem to be from 2008, but I guess there must be new models in this price range?

Here are the features that I would need:

- 1920/1080 recording (or higher )
- good lens system that allows for "dslr-style" focusing as seen above.
- should have a display that can be turned towards filmed object (as I often film alone, so if I'm in front of the camera I need to see if I'm in focus)
- should have a hdmi output (for external screen - in my studio setup, I have a larger monitor instead of the camera internal display for control of the picture)
- should have a remote control that allows for zoom and start/stop the recording (again, when recording alone)
- should save on cards - no harddisk or digital tapes, I want to easily transfer stuff to my PC

- should, ideally, have a firewire or usb 3.0 output (for direct-to-pc recording) - this almost drives me crazy as there seem to be no actual cameras that you can just plug to your PC and then record live-to-pc (e.g. into sony vegas) instead of recording to memory card and then having to transfer the vid)?


Thanks for your help and sorry for any grammar mistakes

Cheers,
Rob

[murokoma]

Hi,

another quick addition: After looking around for a bit, a "shallow depth of field" seems what I'm looking for... and currently, the Sony NEX-VG20 and the upcoming NEX-VG30 / NEX-VG900E seem to be exactly what I'm looking for, at an even smaller price I'll keep you updated, but any suggestions are still most welcome.

Rob

[aedipuss]

if you want dslr effects why not shoot with one? a 50mm f1.2 lens can give you a pretty freaking small dof. i like the video from my canon 60d quite a lot.

hopefully you are not really shooting on a white background. bright green or blue is used for a reason.

[murokoma]

Hi Aedipuss,

hm, couple of reasons - maximum recording length, no remote control (? just guessing here, at least my old DSLR had none), and to really have somebody shoot stuff on a dlsr would probably require mounting this thing into a ridiculously big rack to handle it properly.... and I think it just feels awkward but maybe those are just false impressions that I have.

Oh, I *really* shoot in front of a white screen. Gets me fantastic results ("apple-style" infinite white).

Cheers,
Rob

[Cornucopia]

You're just blowing out the highlights, then. I get it.

Given your requirements (good start!), I'd say the choice is about whether you want INTERCHANGEABLE LENSES or not.
If so, those Sonys you mentioned are pretty good.
If not, I'd suggest either the Panasonic P2 Line (with either DVCPro or AVC-Intra recording) or Canon XLH1.
Some of those don't have HDMI out, IIRC, but that can still be achieved with a HD-SDI-to-HDMI or Firewire-to-HDMI adapter.
The Sonys shoot AVCHD, AFAIK, which I would not like to do as a "prosumer". I consider that strictly hobbyist/consumer turf.

Scott

[aedipuss]

this is what i use for a remote control - http://webvideouniversity.com/podcast/video/2011/11/29/remote-control-focus-and-record...-a-canon-dslr/

no rack needed unless you are using some humongous lens. a 50mm f1.2 is about 3 inches long.

[poisondeathray]

The Sony NEX VG20 is notable for moire and aliasing issues. It can ruin a "interview" type shoot when the talent is wearing certain types of patterned clothes when shot at certain distances. Or any patterns like brick walls, roof tiles etc... It will show up clearly when contrasted to a white background. (Many of the Canon DSLRs exhibit these same types of issues) . I recommend you do a search on "NEX VG20" and "moire and aliasing" before you commit

[Cornucopia]

You think it's the CMOS sensor or the AVCHD recording? or what?...

Scott

[poisondeathray]

You think it's the CMOS sensor or the AVCHD recording? or what?...

In regards to what ?

[aedipuss]

if you haven't watched these they are worth your time and may surprise you..... after part one my picks were b,g,h.
http://www.zacuto.com/shootout-revenge-2012

[Cornucopia]

You think it's the CMOS sensor or the AVCHD recording? or what?...

In regards to what ?

The moire / aliasing. My guess is there is no "anti-aliasing" LP filter, either optical (blur) or digital, in the recording chain.

Scott

[poisondeathray]

You think it's the CMOS sensor or the AVCHD recording? or what?...

In regards to what ?

The moire / aliasing. My guess is there is no "anti-aliasing" LP filter, either optical (blur) or digital, in the recording chain.

Scott

Yes, the optical low pass filter is non existent (or virtually non existent) in these models . It's not from AVCHD compression

[aedipuss]

you can see those problems even with $100,000 tv station studio cameras when heads wear improper clothing.

[poisondeathray]

you can see those problems even with $100,000 tv station studio cameras when heads wear improper clothing.

True, all cameras exhibit it so some extent. But it's way way way way way worse in DSLR's and the VG20 line . They are usuable in limited settings, but you need lots of experience to avoid situations and conditions where it rears it's ugly head (and even then it can pop up unexpectedly)

[aedipuss]

it's not a missing filter on the canon 7d/60d/600d line, it that the sensor is read only every third line shooting 1080 video. canon's newer 5d mIII reads every line and downsizes.

[poisondeathray]

it's not a missing filter on the canon 7d/60d/600d line, it that the sensor is read only every third line shooting 1080 video. canon's newer 5d mIII reads every line and downsizes.

That's correct. Line skipping.

But other large sensor cameras line skip , or pixel bin - but they don't have as much problems with moire and aliasing because their OLPF is much better . e.g. AF100, GH2 . You would expect a strong OLPF to degrade the footage, but the effective resolution is much higher on the GH2 than 7D, T2i, 5dMkii. In comparison, the Canon footage is very soft

[aedipuss]

the gh2 is more comparable to the canon 5d mIII. the 7d series is 2 years older and awaiting an update.

[poisondeathray]

the gh2 is more comparable to the canon 5d mIII. the 7d series is 2 years older and awaiting an update.

Not in price range.... GH2 is about 3x less

But for still photos, there is no contest

[poisondeathray]

But back on topic - I wouldn't call these (DSLR's or GH2/3 - which is not really a DSLR) what the OP wants. They have too many issues and require many accessories, but their appeal is relatively low cost shallow depth of field

Maybe something like the FS100/FS700 ?

- should, ideally, have a firewire or usb 3.0 output (for direct-to-pc recording) - this almost drives me crazy as there seem to be no actual cameras that you can just plug to your PC and then record live-to-pc (e.g. into sony vegas) instead of recording to memory card and then having to transfer the vid)?

No HD pro/sumer camera outputs video through firewire or usb (unless you count older HDV models) . Either HDMI or HD-SDI . If recording to PC and HDD, you need a PCIe card like blackmagic intensity, decklink , that sort of thing

[aedipuss]

hehe, i was referring to the generational age of the cams, not price range.... but the 5d is in the op's price range.

[poisondeathray]

Also most of those (DSLRs, or GH2) have unusuable ports for live recording - they are riddled with overlays, have funny crop factors, or weird cadences and chroma subsampling (in the case of GH2).

[aedipuss]

- 1920/1080 recording (or higher )
- good lens system that allows for "dslr-style" focusing as seen above.
- should have a display that can be turned towards filmed object (as I often film alone, so if I'm in front of the camera I need to see if I'm in focus)
- should have a hdmi output (for external screen - in my studio setup, I have a larger monitor instead of the camera internal display for control of the picture)
- should have a remote control that allows for zoom and start/stop the recording (again, when recording alone)
- should save on cards - no harddisk or digital tapes, I want to easily transfer stuff to my PC

a canon dslr meets all his requirements except for remote zoom, it can only do focus, and start/stop.

[murokoma]

Hey guys, whoa, thanks a lot - didn't check this thread and was surprised by so many answers. Really appreciate it.

As I said, a DSLR, while giving the "look" I'm looking for, is out of the equasion due to the issues mentioned - "workarounds" with "pre-recording" focus etc. are really not something I would want to live with, even with the attractive price point.

I checked the Canon XLH1 - and was surprised to see that it was listed on Amazon in 2003 (!!!) - that's almost 10 years ago! If that information is correct, I'd really have a bad feeling about investing money in a decade-old technology, while I can get something like the FS700 for a similar price.

I actually had a look at some reviews today - seems to be a nice piece of equipment. Anyone who has any experience with it? I've read a few negativ reviews about the fs100, mostly pointing out the "cheap" overall feel... did that imprive with the fs700?

as for interchangeable lenses - I guess in this price category, it makes sense to invest in a model that allows to change lenses, as this will give me more freedom?

Follow-up question on FS100/FS700: Do they come with a remote (or is one available, in general), especially the last one? I couldn't find any mention of it in the official product description...

NOT having one would bring me back to the DSLR issue

Thanks a lot guys!
Rob

[aedipuss]

the fs700 has a lanc port(wired controller port).