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  1. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    I was thinking of buying Adobe Lightroom, but I don't know if that's bloatware too, like the other Adobe stuff.

    So I stumbled across a $99 solution that's lookin' pretty good. It's also available as a plugin to Lightroom, so apparently Lightroom doesn't do HDR compositing?

    I realize regular photos don't cut it now, so I'm immersing myself in HDR.

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  2. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    mediachance has had an hdr program for years - i have their Dynamic Photo-HDR. lots of others do also. http://captainkimo.com/hdr-software-review-comparison/
    even corel paintshop includes it.

    it's mainly for background photos. it has to set up - tripod and absolutely no movement otherwise it looks like crap.
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  3. Yes, it looks like everyone is going for those over saturated photos. When you look at those ppt files going around you will notice that every photo is over saturated. Yes they do look stunning but is it the actual real colors that were present in the original scene?
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  4. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    color wise on anyone else's photo you can never know. but the main usage of hdr is to take a quick set of photos at different f-stops and combine them. so yes it starts out as real, but it is "digital photography".....
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  5. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    that and really ugly side effects like the green crud on a the wall that should be a uniform beige and the burned out brights like the disc container.

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    Originally Posted by TreeTops View Post
    Yes, it looks like everyone is going for those over saturated photos. When you look at those ppt files going around you will notice that every photo is over saturated. Yes they do look stunning but is it the actual real colors that were present in the original scene?
    They don't look at all "stunning". They're sickly. Over saturation is the least of the signs of bad processing. There are hundreds of Avisynth, VirtualDub, and Adobe plugins and methods designed to undo all the mistakes made in that HDR image.

    Enjoy. But anyone with two normally functioning eyeballs and a modicum of visual discrimination would LOL at that HDR effect.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:40.
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  7. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    that and really ugly side effects like the green crud on a the wall that should be a uniform beige and the burned out brights like the disc container.
    Those bumps on the wall is the "OrangePeel" texture coating. That's how much detail it adds.

    The green crud is the complementary color of pink. There's a pink umbrella visible, and when light reflects off pink it throws a green reflection. So that item is technically correct. This would be where the human steps in a tweaks it back to normal. Like a WB adjustment.

    And that was a quickie shot I took right here at my desk. But I did use a preset, I didn't cook that myself. So that look has to have some merit, or else it wouldn't be a preset.
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  8. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TreeTops View Post
    Yes, it looks like everyone is going for those over saturated photos. When you look at those ppt files going around you will notice that every photo is over saturated. Yes they do look stunning but is it the actual real colors that were present in the original scene?
    It came to me naturally as any photographer would stumble upon the idea eventually. I think Ansel Adams pioneered the concept.

    But regarding the colors, I put an untouched "normal" exposure according to the meter. And I do have Highlight Tone Priority enabled as well. So your eye will show you what that does.
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    IS that HDR image some sort of special effects toy, or what? If Ansel Adams or Edward Weston could see what you've done with their theories, they'd roll in their graves. The HDR sample looks more like hemp-induced VH1 than anything either of those classical photogs would come up with. I don't think you get the idea. Many crtics would say Adams' work often looks artificial (and it does), while Weston's was more delicate, subdued and realistic. If you want to see how to enhance color and contrast without blowing everything to shreds, try looking at David Muench, who applied the work of Adams and Weston to good ol' Ektacolor and Kodachrome.

    The idea of zone systems is to enhance, reveal, and preserve detail, subtelty, and intricacy, avoiding detail loss, crushed and mushy darks, and blown-out brights, and to contain the elements within the capabilities of the medium displaying them -- i.e., to make the image more accurate and revealing, not to just pump it up into some Early German Expressionist orgy. In every respect, what the HDR image does is the opposite of what zone systems attempt to avoid. HDR charges 100 fish for this? Any photog who knows how to twist an RGB levels control into pretzels can do the same thing (and would probably be able to maintain the correct colors in the process) at no extra cost. Save your cash and learn to do it with the Adobe you already have.

    Ah, but to each his own. People like this stuff. Well....some people. Enjoy. Eventually, they'll get over it.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:40.
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  10. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    it has to set up - tripod and absolutely no movement otherwise it looks like crap.
    This software I'm using has an automatic alignment tool. Similar to optical flow tracking.

    So handheld is OK. So long as its not ridiculous. There's a common sense limit on any tool, but those with the bad results are lookin' for miracles.
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  11. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    mediachance has had an hdr program for years - i have their Dynamic Photo-HDR. lots of others do also.
    I saw that top 10 list, and it's in alphabetical order, so there's no way to tell what's what.

    Have you ever used Photomatix? That's the one I ran across, and I kind of like it so far. What's your thinkin"?

    @sanlyn Are you burning the catshit? What Ansel Adams did was multiple exposures on the same plate. HDR does multiple plates of bracketed exposures. Then the computer interpolates and flattens quite accurately and artistically.

    They made fun of Stieglitz for using a "machine" to make art too. Hahaha, but art is evolving into the vector world very rapidly now. The oil and canvas is just too constraining.
    Last edited by budwzr; 30th Sep 2012 at 23:20.
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    Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    mediachance has had an hdr program for years - i have their Dynamic Photo-HDR. lots of others do also.
    I saw that top 10 list, and it's in alphabetical order, so there's no way to tell what's what.

    Have you ever used Photomatix? That's the one I ran across, and I kind of like it so far. What's your thinkin"?

    @sanlyn Are you burning the catshit? What Ansel Adams did was multiple exposures on the same plate. HDR does multiple plates of bracketed exposures. Then the computer interpolates and flattens quite accurately and artistically.

    They made fun of Stieglitz for using a "machine" to make art too. Hahaha, but art is evolving into the vector world very rapidly now. The oil and canvas is just too constraining.
    You just enjoy yourself, budwzr. Means nothing to me, just the sort of thing an untrained eye goes for, and people even make good money catering to it (it's keeping HDr in business, right?). So join the crowd. Later you might develop a better understanding of what Adams, Steiglitz and the like were trying to do. Meanwhile, HDR is a good technique for special effects for the hell of it. But more advanced techs have been getting the same effects for years without HDR. Why buy the same tools twice?

    As for somebody smoking or burning something....I got over that bit long ago. One day you, too, will leave it behind. . You guys have fun.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:40.
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  13. You can try this free / open source one too

    http://qtpfsgui.sourceforge.net/


    Personally it' s not my cup of tea, but lots of people are using it to increase latitude and dynamic range of cheap cameras (for video) . When done conservatively, and done properly - I think it can be beneficial for certain shots.

    The Magic Lantern guys with the Canon T2i have this in feature programmed in the firmware where they take alternate exposures at 1/2 the framerate (but this way you don't need a special rig and different cameras to take the shots). The extra "inbetween" frames are synthesized in avisynth or similar techniques - it only works well on certain types of shots. You can see some great examples on vimeo and youtube
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    @poisondeathray. I recall looking into that open-source filter a year ago for some faded/discolored material. Sad to day, it didn't do the trick (or maybe I was too impatient with it, and I couldn't figure how to apply its effects to video). Michael Jackson employed a number of "standard" techniques and filters in unconventional ways in many of his videos. Look at what he did with color in They Don't Care About Us and how it affects the way viewers get a certain feel for the video's locale. That video looked a bit like something one could do with HDR for video. But sometimes these techniques are applied "just for effect" and out of context, which gets tiresome quickly.

    I still have that Luminance download, I'll have get back into it. There ought to be some way to adapt HDR methods to video. With something like MaskTools, for instance? Or with masking, blends, etc. in After Effects? Exercising a little more control over the results, I can see where this HDR idea might get somewhere with graphics that move -- without spending $500 for AE plugins I've seen.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:40.
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  15. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    I don't think either of you guys "get" HDR. It is meant to allow manipulation & storage of High Latitude images (either a single image, a series of bracketed images, or those bracketed images combined), such that upon DISPLAY (or final export) you get a very good sense of the whole dynamic range.

    Now, since most CURRENT display devices are STILL in the standard dynamic range capability, the last stage in the process is regularly "down-ranging" and this requires the skill of TONE MAPPING (similar to how one needs to carefully apply dither to downsample, or down rez, or down-color a signal).
    And the problem with the original example, and MANY I've seen on the web, is that the program and/or user that adjusted the tone mapping has little or no skill and so it looks FAKE or "Special Effects-like".

    Personally, I think it would be a great thing for NLE's (particularly Virtualdub & AVISynth) to be rebuilt from the ground up to fully support HDR, as that would fix a LOT of the rendering problems. All major pro photo manipulation, 3D animation, and compositing apps already have this, and all major Hollywood movies (particularly those that use CGI) make great use of this - AND THEIR IMAGES DON'T LOOK STUPID. It's all about the skill.

    Remember, this is similar to the difference between a Audio editing app that uses only 16bit audio files and mixes in 16bit versus an Audio editing app that uses 16, 20, 24, 32, and Floatingpoint files and mixes in 32, 48, 64bit, etc. Both will allow you to save to a 16bit file, but the latter will sound clean & beautiful even after major manipulation, whereas the former will have added much unwanted "baggage" along the way.

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    Well, now....that makes much more sense. Glad you explained that, because from your post it appeared you thought the effects shown were kinda cool. So if I took you the wrong way, it's my bad. Not that the effects are invalid for a specific purpose -- look at what Mike Nichols did in some scenes from Catch 22. But those looked "unnatural" on purpose, to fit the circumstances. So if you're saying this is not what Adams and the other innovators wanted, I'd agree.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:40.
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  17. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    You can try this free / open source one too

    http://qtpfsgui.sourceforge.net/

    The Magic Lantern guys with the Canon T2i have this in feature programmed in the firmware where they take alternate exposures at 1/2 the framerate
    OK, thanks. Hmmm, I did use ML preset to bracket that still lamp shot. But haven't tried video yet. I like that idea of interpolating the tween frames. Interesting. I'll check it out.
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    I'm learning to mask in After Effects. So a study of still-photo filters along the lines of HDR could possibly be emulated in such an environment. I have a couple of crappy VHS captures made on an ancient open-top RCA VCR that might respond to that sort of thing . . . .
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:40.
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  19. Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    I'm learning to mask in After Effects. So a study of still-photo filters along the lines of HDR could possibly be emulated in such an environment. I have a couple of crappy VHS captures made on an ancient open-top RCA VCR that might respond to that sort of thing . . . .

    You can't use this technique for already recorded material. You need multiple exposures.
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    Hm. Well, at least I won't be losing sleep working on that brilliant idea.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:40.
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  21. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    You can't use this technique for already recorded material. You need multiple exposures.
    Actually, you can -- sorta. You can take a normally exposed photo and create three "bracketed" photos from it. One too dark (crushed blacks), one too contrasty (crushed darks and blacks), one too bright (crushed brights). Then play with those and try to restore the original photo.
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  22. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    You can't use this technique for already recorded material. You need multiple exposures.
    Actually, you can -- sorta. You can take a normally exposed photo and create three "bracketed" photos from it. One too dark (crushed blacks), one too contrasty (crushed darks and blacks), one too bright (crushed brights). Then play with those and try to restore the original photo.

    Well it's not really the same thing

    What you describe can be done with shadows/highlights/midtone filters (e.g. photoshop/after effects have a shadow/highlight filter) - where the demarcations of certain level ranges are "premapped" as masks. But the effect is not remotely close to what can be done with tone mapping (if done properly)

    A "normal" photo in RGB (jpeg) is only 8bit. A VHS recording will be recorded from 8 bit MPEG2 broadcast at "normal" exposure. The high and low ends will have little to no detail to begin with
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  23. My point wasn't to bring out details in the original photo -- what the tools you describe do. It was to recreate the original photo from three simulated bracketed images. Ie, restore the original detail from three images, none of which has all the detail, one "underexposed", one too contrasty (simulating a case where 8 bits was insufficient dynamic range), one "overexposed". This is the exact same principle in HDR processing. Using multiple 8 bit images to capture a wider dynamic range.
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  24. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    My point wasn't to bring out details in the original photo -- what the tools you describe do. It was to recreate the original photo from three simulated bracketed images. Ie, restore the original detail from three images, none of which has all the detail, one "underexposed", one too contrasty (simulating a case where 8 bits was insufficient dynamic range), one "overexposed". This is the exact same principle in HDR processing. Using multiple 8 bit images to capture a wider dynamic range.
    Ah I misunderstood what you wrote - you're just explaining what tonemapping is

    But you can't take 3 different exposures from 1 single "normal exposed" photo or video - that was my point of my reply to Sanlyn . The whole point of tonemapping is to increase the dynamic range. And if you already have the original photo or video, then there is no real purpose in recreating the original photo or video that you already have...

    If there is no control rig (e.g. it wasn't shot exactly the same, maybe it was slightly off) , or there wasn't single camera with alternate multiple exposures (such as Magic Lantern, or Red Epic HDRx) - then it's usually motion tracked to match up the differences (so the different exposures are superimposed).
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    Then, basically what I'd be doing in Photoshop or AfterEffects (or masktools, for that matter) would be similar to various forms of masking/blending -- not exactly the same thing as HDR. I guess it would depend on the desired effect. For VHS, I'd want to rescue some highlights and/or save some darker details, and make some rather hefty color corrections. I'll have to play around with both methods to see what they do under more controlled circumstances. So I guess I'll lose some sleep anyway. I hate VHS.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:41.
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  26. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    The whole point of tonemapping is to increase the dynamic range. And if you already have the original photo or video, then there is no real purpose in recreating the original photo or video that you already have...
    The purpose is to learn HDR techniques. I was simply point out that you can create your own bracketed images if you don't have any to start with.

    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    I'm learning to mask in After Effects. So a study of still-photo filters along the lines of HDR could possibly be emulated in such an environment.
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    Got that, jagabo, thanks.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:41.
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  28. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    The whole point of tonemapping is to increase the dynamic range. And if you already have the original photo or video, then there is no real purpose in recreating the original photo or video that you already have...
    The purpose is to learn HDR techniques. I was simply point out that you can create your own bracketed images if you don't have any to start with.

    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    I'm learning to mask in After Effects. So a study of still-photo filters along the lines of HDR could possibly be emulated in such an environment.

    I see, I was answering to his comments on VHS. I assumed he wanted to put it to actual effective use. He clarified that's what he wanted for VHS later:


    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    For VHS, I'd want to rescue some highlights and/or save some darker details, and make some rather hefty color corrections. I'll have to play around with both methods to see what they do under more controlled circumstances. So I guess I'll lose some sleep anyway. I hate VHS.

    And that's what my comments on the various shadow/highlight/midtones filters do - the base their corrections based on predetermined level ranges

    You can even do this in avisynth with the masks pack. e.g. isolate between Y=0-40, 41-130, 131-255 (or whatever range, etc...) , then apply your filters through those masks .

    My point was you can't extend the range and detail that is already there from the 1 exposure. e.g. when you brighten shadows, you often reveal crap and noise. By using real tone mapping techniques, and merging a more brightly exposed "shadow" version, you can effectively create an image that has nice shadow detail without the noise and need for heavy denoising
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  29. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    My point was you can't extend the range and detail that is already there from the 1 exposure.
    Of course.
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  30. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    My point was you can't extend the range and detail that is already there from the 1 exposure.
    Of course.
    I did try the "faux" HDR once, doing exactly that. And it does create a nice artistic effect. But it doesn't pop with realism like the separate plates.

    And that brings up another angle. If you've never seen the original shot or footage, would you know the difference. If not, then faux is the way to "go".
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