Apple icod codec problem: can't play video in PC

[Valerc]

Hi

I need to add subtitles to a .mov video, but I can't even play it. Actually, I can only play the sound, but I see no images.

Is there something I can try before going to get a Mac I don´t know where?


This is the MediaInfo log for the file:

General
Complete name : C:\Users\Valentina\Desktop\DP1_001\DP1_More Than Ever.mov
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 2.43 GiB
Duration : 9mn 58s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 34.8 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-12 22:31:16
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-12 22:42:32
Writing library : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID : 2
Format : Intermediate Codec
Codec ID : icod
Codec ID/Hint : Apple
Duration : 9mn 58s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 33.3 Mbps
Width : 1 248 pixels
Original width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 702 pixels
Original height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.584
Stream size : 2.32 GiB (96%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-12 22:31:17
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-12 22:42:32
Color primaries : BT.709-2, SMPTE 274M, SMPTE 296M
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-2, SMPTE 170M, SMPTE 274M, SMPTE 293M, SMPTE 296M
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-2, SMPTE 274M, SMPTE 296M
Material_Duration : 903000
Material_Duration_LastFrame : 304235
Material_StreamSize : 2489554432
Material_FrameCount : 14356

Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : sowt
Duration : 9mn 58s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 110 MiB (4%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-09-12 22:31:16
Tagged date : UTC 2012-09-12 22:42:32

[poisondeathray]

icod = Apple Intermediate Codec. Not possible on a PC. You need a mac

[Valerc]

Mmmmm... Terrible news. Thanks so much, poisondeathray.

[Valerc]

OK, apparently I have located a Mac from a friend of mine. Now, what is is exactly that I need to do with those 2 .mov files with an icod codec in order to later be able to open them on a Windows system?

What program do I need to use from the Mac? And how do I need to save it as?

Thanks!

[poisondeathray]

You need something like fcp, or quicktime pro , or imovie I think can do it too

You need to encode to something compatible on the PC e.g. h.264 video compression, or mjpeg

You will lose quality, but if you use enough bitrate, you won't notice it too much

[Valerc]

Hey poisondeathray! Are fcp, quicktime pro , or imovie video editors? Do I just need to do a render, like you do in Vegas, for example?

If I keep all the specs the same do you think I will lose quality? Is there an objective way to say if you lost quality after that other than just looking at the video?

Thanks!

[poisondeathray]

Hey poisondeathray! Are fcp, quicktime pro , or imovie video editors? Do I just need to do a render, like you do in Vegas, for example?

If I keep all the specs the same do you think I will lose quality? Is there an objective way to say if you lost quality after that other than just looking at the video?

Thanks!

fcp is a full editor like vegas, quicktime pro is more like a player, imovie is more like a basic editor

You can't keep the specs the same (the whole point is to re-encode it to something other than AIC / icod)

The objetive measures would be quality tests like SSIM, PSNR. Or use difference mask (e.g. subtract layers in a compositing application)

You will lose quality - it's unavoidable - unless you use a lossless codec. For lossy codecs, the higher the bitrate, the less quality you will lose. e.g. if you use something like png in mov or animation codec at full quality , it will be RGB lossless, but the filesize will be huge . You won't notice any loss if you use something like mjpeg quality 100, or h.264 with 20-30Mb/s (you have too go frame by frame and zoom in to see the loss). Those last 2 are what's typically used to transfer to something usable for PC. Another option is dnxhd, but it doesn't support non standard frame sizes (1248x702 is non standard). If you don't mind the filesize, use png in mov or animation codec

Even if you use a lossless codec, it's only lossles in the same colorspace. There will be very slight losses from doing colorspace conversions . I don't know what AIC uses, I think it's YUV 4:2:0 . So even using lossless RGB you will incur some loss . I wouldn't worry about it. The fact that somebody gave you AIC means they don't care about some quality loss. They would have used something better if they cared (even prores is lossy - but that's what most mac editors would have used, but it's much better than AIC)

[Valerc]

Thanks for all that! The original file is 2.5 G, and .mov

I'm not familiar with lossy codecs.

What if I use h.264 and keep a high video bitrate? I have a doubt about the bitrate. If the original bitrate I have is like 30 M, then it's pointless to reencode with a bigger bitrate than that. Right? I mean, you can't "create" more quality than what you already have in the original. Right?

I'm seeing from what I posted at the beginning, that my video bitrate is : 33.3 Mbps.

If I use that bitrate and h.264 will I be OK?

[poisondeathray]

Thanks for all that! The original file is 2.5 G, and .mov

I'm not familiar with lossy codecs.

What if I use h.264 and keep a high video bitrate? I have a doubt about the bitrate. If the original bitrate I have is like 30 M, then it's pointless to reencode with a bigger bitrate than that. Right? I mean, you can't "create" more quality than what you already have in the original. Right?

I'm seeing from what I posted at the beginning, that my video bitrate is : 33.3 Mbps.

If I use that bitrate and h.264 will I be OK?

Yes, you can't have more quality than the original. But the higher the bitrate, the less loss there is

Even if you used 10x the bitrate 333Mb/s, it will still be some loss. That's what a lossy encoder does - it throws out data. You can never get the same quality. A lossless encoder can retain the same quality

You have to decide what is "enough" for your purposes. But using something like 30Mb/s should be more than enough for most goals

Note I added some comments to the earlier post. The fact that somebody is using AIC means they aren't too worried about quality. So I wouldn't be too concerned either

[Valerc]

Wow, your explanation was totally awesome poisondeathray! Thanks SO much.

This is a video for festivals. Not Cannes or Sundance, but festivals anyways.

Well, I will try to reencode it with h.264 and 33 M.

Any other codec just in case h.264 is not available? My friend is a photographer, but has no knowledge of video issues. What if he doesn´t have the necessary codecs for the job?

[poisondeathray]

Wow, your explanation was totally awesome poisondeathray! Thanks SO much.

This is a video for festivals. Not Cannes or Sundance, but festivals anyways.

Well, I will try to reencode it with h.264 and 33 M.

Any other codec just in case h.264 is not available? My friend is a photographer, but has no knowledge of video issues. What if he doesn´t have the necessary codecs for the job?

I listed a few options already. If he can use AIC, then he can use h.264 (he must have all the necessary codecs if he could encode to AIC). MJPEG is a 2nd commonly used alternative if for whatever reason he can't

[Valerc]

Oh no, this friend of mine is not the one who created the video. I am going to use his Mac because it's the only Mac I have available for this. He has nothing to do with this videos. He's just helping me. So, should I be worried that he doesn´t have the codecs? What can I do?

But you said that MJPEG would produce a huge file, or am I mistaken?

[poisondeathray]

Oh no, this friend of mine is not the one who created the video. I am going to use his Mac because it's the only Mac I have available for this. He has nothing to do with this videos. He's just helping me. So, should I be worried that he doesn´t have the codecs? What can I do?

But you said that MJPEG would produce a huge file, or am I mistaken?

If he has one of those programs listed above, you can convert it

MJPEG final size will be based on the quality level you choose. There is a slider that goes up to 100. 100 will produce a larger filesize than , say 95 . It doesn't encode using a given set bitrate, it uses a "quality" level

[Valerc]

Mmm... OK.

But if my original is 2.5 G, should I get a file of the same size as that if I use 100 for the MJPEG codec? It sounds as if it was the case. 100% quality is the quality of the original. Right?

[poisondeathray]

Mmm... OK.

But if my original is 2.5 G, should I get a file of the same size as that if I use 100 for the MJPEG codec? It sounds as if it was the case. 100% quality is the quality of the original. Right?

No, 100% is the highest for MJPEG. It's still a lossy codec

The filesize will be proprotional to content complexity. If there is lots of detail, noise, the file will be larger. If it was a blank wall, it will be smaller . So it might be larger or smaller than the original. There is no way to tell beforehand

The filesize is (almost) meaningless - you can't compare between different codecs, encoders or settings. Within the same encoder, settings and codec, then yes you can say the higher the bitrate, the higher the quality

[Valerc]

The thing is this: I don´t want to get a file much bigger than 2.5G. I later need to upload it, and it can get really difficult the bigger it is.

What I downloaded was 2.5G, then I need to add subtitles and upload it again.

So, is my file going to be much bigger than the original after this little "intervention"?? That really worries me.

For a given quality, what format is better: .mov, avi, mp4? Which gives you better quality with smaller size?

[poisondeathray]

The thing is this: I don´t want to get a file much bigger than 2.5G. I later need to upload it, and it can get really difficult the bigger it is.

What I downloaded was 2.5G, then I need to add subtitles and upload it again.

So, is my file going to be much bigger than the original after this little "intervention"?? That really worries me.

filesize = bitrate x running time

So if you used h.264 and use the same bitrate, it will be the same filesize.

If you used 1/2 the bitrate it would be 1/2 the filesize (assuming video only)

For a given quality, what format is better: .mov, avi, mp4? Which gives you better quality with smaller size?

These are all containers. They don't necessarily indicate anything about the video quality or the compression used

h.264 will give best compression (so better quality with smaller filesizes)

[Valerc]

OK, poisondeathray. That was really clear! That will do, I hope.

You are really great to explain things. That´s not common at all.

I will be back to tell about my results...

Thanks so much!!!

[Valerc]

OK... Bad news. The mac had imovie HD. However, it wouldn´t play the file. The machine didn´t have the icod, and even though I downloaded it, it refused to be installed. (((

[poisondeathray]

imovie hd is part of iLife and icod (AIC) support should already be there

If not , download it here
http://support.apple.com/downloads/Apple_Intermediate_Codec_1_0_1

If that's the one you already tried, then I have no idea. Try using a different mac or ask someone that has FCP or QT installed . Ask whoever sent this to you to export it in a different format

[Valerc]

Hi poisondeathray! That´s exactly what I did. I downloaded it from that same page, and when I tried to install it, it gave me a message I don´t exactly remember, but it wouldn´t install it.

Actually, it was even worse than with a PC, because Quick Time didn´t even open it, and imovie did, but it wouldn´t play any sound or video.

[poisondeathray]

Quicktime on a Mac (it won't work on a PC) requires a different installer

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/39040/proapps-quicktime-codecs

[Valerc]

Does it mean that I should have installed all this to be able to use it? Mmm...

[poisondeathray]

If you have imovie hd you shouldn't have to install anything. Apple Intermediate Codec comes with it. It converts almost all HD footage to AIC. If something was broken or corrupted then you might have to re-install it

Maybe your file is corrupted ?

[Valerc]

But what do I need to reinstall? Like I said, I tried to install the codec and the system wouldn't let me. And there was another message saying that Quick Time didn´t recognize the file... If it didn´t recognize it, I think the machine didn't have the codec installed. And it didn´t let me install it. So, it's an endless loop.

[poisondeathray]

You shouldn't have to install or do anything

Mac's are supposed to "just work"

On a more serious note, AIC comes with imovie. The other programs I listed earlier can open & convert it too (but need AIC installed separately).

Just ask whoever sent you the file to send you another format that is PC friendly, or try another mac

[Valerc]

Yes, I guess I will need to ask for 2 new files. I wanted to try this first, because the videos are 5 G big in total and I downloaded them...
Thanks so much, poisondeathray.

[Valerc]

Just thinking about it now. These downloads you sent me the link for (http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/39040/proapps-quicktime-codecs) say this:

Requirements

• Intel
• Mac OS X 10.5.6 or later
• QuickTime 7.6 or later

What if for example his Quick Time version was not this one, but much older. Like I said, he's a photographer and never uses the mac for video-related things.

[poisondeathray]

Even if you upgrade quicktime, you need to "pro" version to be able to convert it (not free) . The regular version is just a player
http://store.apple.com/ca/product/D3380Z/A/quicktime-7-pro-for-mac-os-x


AIC comes with imovie hd, since version 5

[Valerc]

But I mean it just about the requirements. My question is that maybe I wasn´t able to install the codec yesterday because his software is outdated. In some cases, if the versions are too old maybe there are issues.