Sony Vegas 10 - What is the best quality format to save as ?

[aedipuss]

first use mediainfo on the source file to determine if it is in fact interlaced or the blended frames are already there. use mediainfo in text mode and copy paste the results here.

[smrpix]

Hmm, Tel Aviv, Paris and Hebrew subtitles. I'm betting this should be a PAL project. Change your frame rate to 25.

[jagabo]

Hmm, Tel Aviv, Paris and Hebrew subtitles. I'm betting this should be a PAL project. Change your frame rate to 25.

I think you're right. It looks like Vegas' blending from a frame rate change. The live video looks like it may have been interlaced too. The OP needs to upload an unmolested sample of the source.

[Transporter]

Well, try to download this one guys, tell me if the picture goes straight and not smoothly please.
Download here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b38n4bhgflprmll/sample.mp3?m

first use mediainfo on the source file to determine if it is in fact interlaced or the blended frames are already there. use mediainfo in text mode and copy paste the results here.

How do I save it as mediainfo ?

[poisondeathray]

open the original mov with mediainfo . view=>text . copy & paste the results back here

or cut a segment of the original mov if you have quicktime pro

[aedipuss]

makesample might cut a hunk you could upload here.

[smrpix]

In Vegas, you can reset the project and point it to your source file to match the properties. (I haven't reinstalled Vegas since I built my current system so I can't give step by step instructions -- but the capability is there.)

Ah-- here you go: http://robertsproductions.net/sony-vegas-match-media-settings/

[Transporter]

open the original mov with mediainfo . view=>text . copy & paste the results back here

or cut a segment of the original mov if you have quicktime pro

Ok, this is what mediainfo says:
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 2.62 GiB
Duration : 6mn 16s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 59.7 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-06-11 06:37:14
Tagged date : UTC 2012-06-11 06:40:14
Writing library : Apple QuickTime
Video
ID : 1
Format : ProRes
Format version : Version 0
Codec ID : apcn
Duration : 6mn 16s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 52.7 Mbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.289
Stream size : 2.31 GiB (88%)
Title : Core Media Video
Writing library : Apple
Encoded date : UTC 2012-06-11 06:37:14
Tagged date : UTC 2012-06-11 06:40:14
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Big

[poisondeathray]

Set your project settings to 1280x720, 25fps, square pixel, field order progressive

Same with your render settings 1280x720, 25fps, square pixel, progressive

The reason why you're getting poor results, is you're resampling the framerate from 25 to 29.97, causing blended (blurry) frames, and inserting them at non evenly spaced intervals, so it's choppy

[Transporter]

Set your project settings to 1280x720, 25fps, square pixel, field order progressive

Same with your render settings 1280x720, 25fps, square pixel, progressive

The reason why you're getting poor results, is you're resampling the framerate from 25 to 29.97, causing blended (blurry) frames, and inserting them at non evenly spaced intervals, so it's choppy

Is this good ?

[poisondeathray]

looks ok

field order should say progressive in the project settings (it's blank in yours for some reason)

you can change render settings profile:high , entropy coding: cabac , for better compression

[Transporter]

Here is the final video, what do you think about the picture quality ?
download here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9gq9ugm6wepudcc/%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%A2%D7%946.mp4?m

[poisondeathray]

Here is the final video, what do you think about the picture quality ?
download here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9gq9ugm6wepudcc/%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%A2%D7%946.mp4?m

There are no blends, but there are some jerks in the motion, as if this wasn't the proper framerate, or there are frames missing. How does it compare to the original?

[jagabo]

Yes, there are lots of little jerks from missing frames, only in the live footage, not the intro. It seems likely they are missing in the source you started with. Maybe the original video was 29.97 fps and it was decimated to 25 fps.

[Transporter]

Yes, there are lots of little jerks from missing frames, only in the live footage, not the intro. It seems likely they are missing in the source you started with. Maybe the original video was 29.97 fps and it was decimated to 25 fps.

It means I can fix that or no way ?

[smrpix]

Best guess based on your posted Mediainfo of the source: the frames were lost before you ever got your hands on it. --Agree with jagabo there. Speculation based on ProRes codec: someone did a hatchet job in Final Cut.

Very, very hard to fix -- unlikely you'll get it to look better.

[Transporter]

Well, the last sample ive posted here is the best quality i can get?

[smrpix]

For a clip shot with a handheld home video camera and had frames removed in editing I'd say it looks pretty sharp. Do you want to get into motion stabilizing and scene by scene color correction?

[Transporter]

Ok guys, this is the info of the original movie before the photographer had touched it:
I dont understand what it means, but ive noticed the original movie was 29fps and the edited one he gave me is 25.

Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 194 MiB
Duration : 1mn 9s
Overall bit rate : 23.5 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-05-28 20:28:59
Tagged date : UTC 2012-05-28 20:28:59
NCDT : NCTG
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 1mn 9s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 22.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.354
Stream size : 181 MiB (93%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-05-28 20:28:59
Tagged date : UTC 2012-05-28 20:28:59
Color primaries : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.601
Transfer characteristics : BT.470 System M
Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Little
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : sowt
Duration : 1mn 9s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Delay relative to video : 33ms
Stream size : 12.7 MiB (7%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-05-28 20:28:59
Tagged date : UTC 2012-05-28 20:28:59

[jagabo]

Yes, as I guessed, he converted 29.97 fps to 25 fps by throwing away every 6th frame. How's this for smoothness?

[poisondeathray]

The photographer messed up , just use the original as a starting point.

Change everything to match 29.97 , 1920x1080, square pixel , same for render settings

Then color corrrect, stabilize that. It's no good to start with a bad video

[smrpix]

That all looks fine. Probably your simplest option is to have the photographer change his Final Cut Pro settings to NTSC -- essentially the reverse of what we asked you to do with your now PAL footage.

There are some tricky switches in FCP, you don't want to end up with an NTSC to PAL timeline within an NTSC timeline, so be sure it's referencing the unmodified source. Edits and subtitles should carry over fine.

Your globe grahic is 25fps, so depending on its source it will have to be re-rendered or you'll have to live with blended frames. (or if there's enough head and tail, speed it up to match)

You can output both your ProRes high bitrate .mov as well as your .mp4 out of FCP directly. If you bring it back into Vegas, match the source file's properties as described earlier in this thread. It will now be 29.97.

If you're going to color correct and stabilize as poisondeathray suggest, do it in FCP as well where you have access to the individual clips.

Good luck.

[smrpix]

jagabo, love the dynamic subtitles!

[poisondeathray]

The graphic is easy to retime using motion interpolation (e.g. avisynth, twixtor, after effects etc...) ; simple linear content like that interpolates well . Things like walking do not interpolate very well (as objects cross over), and since you have the original you should start with that

Exactly what kind of services did this "photographer" do ?

[jagabo]

jagabo, love the dynamic subtitles!

I got a laugh out of that too. Of course, if the OP can get his video guy to redo it properly he won't have problems with wandering subtitles. I recreated the missing frames with AviSynth and mvtools, then used VirtualDub's deshaker filter to smooth out the jerky camerawork.

[Transporter]

Well jagabo,
I used the edited (the one the photographer edited with final cut) video version to add subtitles and fix some problems on.
Now, if I wanna fix the missing frames, I MUST do all the editing work from the start, on the original video (the one he didnt edit) ?

[jagabo]

if I wanna fix the missing frames, I MUST do all the editing work from the start, on the original video (the one he didnt edit) ?

Yes, you'll probably have to redo all the editing.

Do you need a 25 fps result? Since the original video is 29.97 fps there will be some kind of compromise getting it to 25 fps:

1) Discard 1/6 of the frames (what your guy did) and play the remaining frames at 25 fps. That leaves you with several little jerks per second.

2) Frame blending looks a little smoother but isn't great -- like the video you originally uploaded.

3) The video can be slowed down to 5/6 the original speed, ie keep all the frames just play through then slower. Motions will be smooth but everything will be in slightly slow motion and you'll have to adjust the audio length to match.

4) You can use motion interpolation techniques. But that that often leaves weird artifacts. Look at the people's legs in the sample I uploaded. If you step through frame by frame you'll see that they look like double exposures every sixth frame (the motion interpolated frame). And sometimes you'll see other distortions. Going straight from 29.97 fps to 30 fps will give even worse results as most frames will be motion interpolated.

5) Convert to 25i -- 50 fields per second. That will look a little smoother but interlaced encoding is always a little lower quality.

[smrpix]

If you cannot get your photographer to output a 29.97 fps version, and you do choose to re-edit, here's a suggestion for methodology:

Create a 29.97 sequence in Vegas using your 25fps clip. (As it appears you did at the very start of this discussion)

Go through the sequence and add edits (I think it's "S") at every cut.

Add the video from your original footage on a new track using the cuts as guides.

You should be able to retain the subtitles you have already created, as well as having a reference (on the old video track) for any effects you may have used.

Vegas' own stabilizer is decent and simple to use, though the method jagabo used is better (I'd go so far as to say impressive.)

I'm assuming a 29.97 version works for you, and it avoids some of the pitfalls pointed out above.

Try it out on a short sample with just a few cuts to see if any unexpected issues arise.

[Transporter]

if I wanna fix the missing frames, I MUST do all the editing work from the start, on the original video (the one he didnt edit) ?

Yes, you'll probably have to redo all the editing.

Do you need a 25 fps result? Since the original video is 29.97 fps there will be some kind of compromise getting it to 25 fps:

1) Discard 1/6 of the frames (what your guy did) and play the remaining frames at 25 fps. That leaves you with several little jerks per second.

2) Frame blending looks a little smoother but isn't great -- like the video you originally uploaded.

3) The video can be slowed down to 5/6 the original speed, ie keep all the frames just play through then slower. Motions will be smooth but everything will be in slightly slow motion and you'll have to adjust the audio length to match.

4) You can use motion interpolation techniques. But that that often leaves weird artifacts. Look at the people's legs in the sample I uploaded. If you step through frame by frame you'll see that they look like double exposures every sixth frame (the motion interpolated frame). And sometimes you'll see other distortions. Going straight from 29.97 fps to 30 fps will give even worse results as most frames will be motion interpolated.

5) Convert to 25i -- 50 fields per second. That will look a little smoother but interlaced encoding is always a little lower quality.

The screans on israel uses 25 or 30fps, so I think 29.97 won't be good here (thats why the photographer coverted it to 25, isnt he ?)
But what you prefer to do is a littlebit hard.
The final video Ive edited looks good enough, isnt it ?
download here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9gq9ugm6wepudcc/%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%A2%D7%946.mp4?m

If you cannot get your photographer to output a 29.97 fps version, and you do choose to re-edit, here's a suggestion for methodology:

Create a 29.97 sequence in Vegas using your 25fps clip. (As it appears you did at the very start of this discussion)

Go through the sequence and add edits (I think it's "S") at every cut.

Add the video from your original footage on a new track using the cuts as guides.

You should be able to retain the subtitles you have already created, as well as having a reference (on the old video track) for any effects you may have used.

Vegas' own stabilizer is decent and simple to use, though the method jagabo used is better (I'd go so far as to say impressive.)

I'm assuming a 29.97 version works for you, and it avoids some of the pitfalls pointed out above.

Try it out on a short sample with just a few cuts to see if any unexpected issues arise.

The only problem is- screen on Israel uses 25\30fps, so 29.97 will still make some problems no ?

[jagabo]

The only problem is- screen on Israel uses 25\30fps, so 29.97 will still make some problems no ?

According to the MediaInfo report you posted the original video is 29.97 fps:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/349338-Sony-Vegas-10-What-is-the-best-quality-forma...=1#post2188739

In any case, converting 30 fps to 29.97 fps is much less jerky (discarding 1 frame out of every 1001, 1 jerk every 33 seconds) than converting 30 fps to 25 fps (discarding 1 frame out of every 6, 5 jerks per second).

Whether your result is "good enough" is up to you.