Flickering chroma(?) lines in VHS capture

[Tel147]

The capture is from a VCR via a MiniDV camcorder using its pass-through feature (direct to DV tape also shows the lines), I tried the capture with three different VCRs, with the first two the picture is almost completely garbled (black/grey roaming picture, can just see the image through the darkness), and when using the third, the picture displays the flickering lines shown in the clip (sorry its a little short).

When capturing or testing the setup with any other device (tube cameras, analogue/digital camcorders, or digital cameras) the capture looks fine.


Thanks in advance for any help.

[lordsmurf]

flickering lines

That's probably head damage on the VCR. What model VCR is it?

And are you using a good one?
See also: VCR Buying Guide (S-VHS, D-VHS, Professional) for best video capturing

[sanlyn]

When capturing or testing the setup with any other device (tube cameras, analogue/digital camcorders, or digital cameras) the capture looks fine.

Why don't you just use the device(s) that give you a good capture?

What is your intended use for the capture?

[Tel147]

I tried 3 different working VCR's so it cannot be a head problem

[Tel147]

I need to capture around 50 hours of home VHS tapes so the other devices will not help for that.

The capture is to archive the full tapes and to copy off some edited segments to watch on DVD's.

Thanks for the replies so far.

[poisondeathray]

Then it looks like it's a problem with that tape (perhaps it was recorded like that) . Is every tape from that set like this ?

It's mainly a luminance flicker (Y), but there is a tiny bit of U, V flicker

You can try to improve it with deflicker filters, or temporal smoothing filters

[Tel147]

The flicker shows on any video signal passed through the VCR also, so it cannot be the tapes.

I've tried the anti-flicker filter in Virtualdub and it works quite well, but I would rather buy another converter box (any suggestions on which to buy if I did? hardware DV capture preferred) to fix the hardware problem rather then just fixing it with software.

[poisondeathray]

What about hooked up VCR directly to a TV? Is flicker there when viewing the TV ?

Is it possible all 3 VCRs are bad since they all exhibit different behaviour ?

[smrpix]

The breakups in the highlights also look like what happens when you play S-VHS tapes in a regular VHS deck. Any markings on the cassette to indicate this may be the case?

[Tel147]

All VCR's play fine when connected to a TV and I'm positive they are all standard VHS tapes.

My guess was that it's some kind of signal problem from the VCR to the camcorder, as all devices work fine when used separately.

Could it be some kind of voltage from the VCR thats causing it?

[Gibson's Squares]

Could it be a bad VCR > DV Cam cable? Maybe try another?

[Tel147]

The cable works fine with all other devices used with it, so sadly it's not looking that simple.

I think it's time to look for another capture device. Thanks for all the replies.

[JVRaines]

The third VCR (the one you posted a capture from) has worn video heads. That's what's giving you the black streaks after the highlights. The first two VCRs have signal anomalies that your DV camera doesn't like. Are you sure they were outputting PAL? Monitors are much more forgiving and sometimes automatically switch signal formats for you.

[Tel147]

The third VCR was bought new for the job and only had a few hours on it at the time I captured the sample clip. It captures fine with an Easycap, with no flicker or black in the clipped areas, but I'm guessing there are better quality options than a cheap Easycap(?).

I checked that the VCR was outputting PAL (the cam is definitely PAL).

I'll look for a USB capture device to use in place of the camcorder, and hopefully that will solve/remove the problem.

[lordsmurf]

EasyCAP = easily crap.
It's one of the worst capture devices that exists.

[sanlyn]

Agreed.

[Tel147]

I thought it wouldn't be good enough, but was useful to check the VCR's with.

What would be a good capture device to capture VHS tapes with? I'd like to capture in DV-AVI or MJPEG (and lossless for the odd segment) at 720x576.

[lordsmurf]

You'll find a list of devices here:
http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/video-capture/3200-best-ati-wonder.html

The ATI 600 USB is suggested.

[Tel147]

Sorry for the delay, I only just saw your reply.

I looked at the link you posted but I'm still a little lost. It would be great if you could steer me towards which All In Wonder I should be looking for.

Would this eBay card and adapter be able to capture DV-AVI and HuffYUV in good initial quality, or would you recommend something else? - http://tinyurl.com/9nynqro and http://tinyurl.com/9pyrvrd

I'm using an older PC with AGP (and PCIe) exclusively to capture the tapes (I can put Windows XP back on it).

Thanks for the help so far and for any more suggestions.

[sanlyn]

The Sapphire is not an All In Wonder, but an inferior copy that is no better than the EasyCap. Besides, you need an AGP graphics card add-in slot to use it as well as the input cable device that's supposed to go with it. The remote you linked to is unnecessary (most people just threw them away). The seller doesn't specify what model of cable is shown; different input cables were used with different models. Keep in mind that the AIW's were either PAL or NTSC, but not both.

Computers today use a PCIe graphics card mount. The original AllInWonders had AGP connections and can't be used with PCIe input slots. Your best bet in a more modern card is to find an ATI HD600.

[lordsmurf]

The Sapphire is not an All In Wonder, but an inferior copy that is no better than the EasyCap.

How do you figure?
As long as it has a Theatre chipset, it's the same as any other AIW -- certainly much better than EasyCap.

The remote you linked to is unnecessary (most people just threw them away). The seller doesn't specify what model of cable is shown; different input cables were used with different models. Keep in mind that the AIW's were either PAL or NTSC, but not both.

All video inputs were the same -- but purple or domino. Not black that I've ever seen.

Computers today use a PCIe graphics card mount. The original AllInWonders had AGP connections and can't be used with PCIe input slots. Your best bet in a more modern card is to find an ATI HD600.

Or use an AGP board, use Windows XP, and build a dedicated capture system -- which is what most people opt for now.

[sanlyn]

Thanks for more info, ls. I recall a few threads from a couple of years back that included videos made with the Sapphire 9000 and similar Sapphires. The artifacts we saw were worse than anything I've seen on EasyCaps. The links to those videos are long since dead. There is no mention in the Sapphire specs about the Theater 200 chip, not even on older websites that show specs for Sapphires, but it does seem to have the Phillips tuner. Specs on other sites say it's based on the ATI 8500. Anyway, since the OI.P. wants to capture to AVI and not to MPEG, the '200' chip probably isn't needed (but you'd know more about that specific point than I).

The only way I know to get an AGP-equipped motherboard is to find some used or out of production clearance, or an eBay entry, likely from ASRock or Biostar. A used Dell or Gateway PC up to about circa 2004/2005 with a working AGP board could be spiffed up. You'd need a better power supply for it, as most came with 200- or 250-watt junk PSU's. ATI specified at least 300-watt for their 8500/9600 series, and I found that a PC I built with a 250-watt PSU had sluggish performance with my old 9600XT until I upgraded the PSU.

The Sapphire shown might be worth a try, as the bids look rather low. But I don't know about an AGP motherboard nowadays. I built mine in 2006/2007. If there are aqny around on eBay, they're likely from ASRock or Biostar. Where you might find a CPU/heatsink from Intel or AMD to fit them is another matter. A used PC with AGP motherboard is another option; many of them only take IDE drives, some later models used both IDE and SATA. One can try Newegg or TigerDirect to see what's around in their "specials" and refurbished areas. You can still find XP Pro around (anything selling for less than $125 or so is likely bootleg).

The "AGP" and the "analog capture" eras ended almost 10 years ago. Foraging for this stuff has reached the state of hunting for antiques: they are still around, but you have to research a bit to know what you're looking for. Meanwhile I'm still building a new PC to cope with the Hauppauge HD PVR's (which will also capture SD sources to MPEG). That will be my only recourse when the better analog capture methods and equipment either drop dead in my living room (and they're all hooked up to UPS power supplies) or disappear altogether.

[Tel147]

The eBay link with the remote control was really just for the cable, as it wasn't included with the card I linked to.

I'm not sure whether to chance the Sapphire (and install XP, only to want to change it back if it doesn't work out), or look for a better card/device known to be good.

As you mentioned the Philips tuner, I do have a cheap tuner card bought around 2005 that also has a Philips tuner, though I'm not sure how relevant that is.

Luckily I have several AGP motherboards (with CPU, heatsync and memory still in place.), that I've kept after upgrading my computers over the years. As you did, I also made up the computer (that I now want to use for video) in around 2006-2007, its mainboard has both an AGP and PCIe slot, so an old or newer card should fit. The power supply was for gaming so I think its 700-800 watts so that would be OK. I presume the PC would be fine to just swap in the Capture card, with nothing else to change inside the unit.

I planned on capturing to external 1TB USB harddrives if you think that would work OK? (it worked fine when saving from camcorder pass-through). I still have Windows XP that I can burn to CD and install (should I be installing the original 2002 version or SP2 do you think?).

It's a pity that the people who make the effort to get a good quality capture, have to buy used hardware from so long ago (in computer component terms) and that's before you even look for a good VCR.

I'm not sure that I want to buy a TBC (what's the thinking?), as other than the flicker, the original (unusable) captures look fairly clean I thought. Almost all of the videos were originally taken on a Mini-DV camcorder from 2001 to 2004 and copied to new VHS tapes (I know, I could have avoided all this, but my teenage allowance didn't stretch to the amount of DV tapes I was using at the time).

[sanlyn]

It appears you have the makings of a workable XP/AGP machine, so you're good there but avoid capture to external USB drives; they're too slow. Capture to a faster internal hard drive, then transfer the capture via USB. AGP capture cards back then were designed for slower drives and less powerful CPU's, so they don't require the hefty SATA drives or fast CPU's of today. As I said, I use external USB drives for storage, I use the old XP for capturing VHS, and newer PCs for processing.

I'm deathly afraid of keeping tons of archived video on big 1TB and 2TB drives; all you need is one drive failure, and that's a lot of data down the drain at one time. If those USBs are the 2.5" types, they're not as reliable or cool running as 7200 rpm external 3.5" drives in fan-cooled enclosures. I do have some 2.5" drives for archiving, but they're not used for heavy work like back-and-forth transfers. Once those 350 and 500GB 2.5" are filled, I leave them alone; they're just too slow and seem too fragile for routine work.

TBC for analog tape should be of the line-tbc type, rather than a full-frame tbc like an AVT-8710 or TBC-1000. Full frame units don't address the usual problems with analog playback; they can fix a few problems, but frame types are mostly to defeat many forms of VHS copy protection; they do nothing for line-timing and other problems common to VHS. To get tbc functionality, it's popular to feed the video thru a device whose tbc circuits are active for play-through and recording, such as an old DVD recorder (the older the better, actually) or a webcam. Not all players and webcams qualify here; Panasonic and Toshiba circa 2001-2005 are the more popular DVD recorders used for line tbc pass-thru, with a Pioneer model or two and a few upscale webcams mentioned as good for the work. My Panny and Toshiba recorders have also defeated every form of rtail VHS copy protection I've encountered so far (for play-thru, not for recording directly to DVD). Macrovision isn't a problem with home made tapes anyway. You might want to browse this thread: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-what-do-you-use .

[lordsmurf]

a few threads from a couple of years back that included videos made with the Sapphire 9000 and similar Sapphires. The artifacts we saw were worse than anything I've seen on EasyCaps..

I would assume user error until proven otherwise. If it was an ATI rebadge, and was "AIW", then it had a Theatre chipset.

The "AGP" and the "analog capture" eras started on their way out almost 10 years ago. Foraging for this stuff has reached the state of hunting for antiques: they are still around, but you have to research a bit to know what you're looking for.

And not because it's "outdated" on anything, but simply because most consumer video is now purely digital: HDTV (ATSC,DVB), DV, AVCHD, etc. Analog is an older workflow, but far from obsolete. Enough used hardware still exists in good working order to fill the demand for it.

As you mentioned the Philips tuner, I do have a cheap tuner card bought around 2005 that also has a Philips tuner, though I'm not sure how relevant that is.

Completely irrelevant. We live in a post-analog (tuner-wise) world.

I planned on capturing to external 1TB USB harddrives if you think that would work OK?

No, not for analog capture. It's not sustained, and USB goes through the CPU.
Only capture to internal drives, eSATA, or Firewire.

(it worked fine when saving from camcorder pass-through).

That was DV transfer, not capturing. Big difference.

It's a pity that the people who make the effort to get a good quality capture, have to buy used hardware from so long ago (in computer component terms) and that's before you even look for a good VCR.

I'm not sure that I want to buy a TBC (what's the thinking?), as other than the flicker, the original (unusable) captures look fairly clean I thought.

TBC is about signal integrity, not how it looks.
Read this: What is a TBC? Time Base Correction for Videotapes

Almost all of the videos were originally taken on a Mini-DV camcorder from 2001 to 2004 and copied to new VHS tapes (I know, I could have avoided all this, but my teenage allowance didn't stretch to the amount of DV tapes I was using at the time).

What are you doing again? Don't analog capture DV.
Only capture analog sources as analog. Maybe your DV tape masters are gone?

[sanlyn]

[QUOTE=lordsmurf;2190428]

a few threads from a couple of years back that included videos made with the Sapphire 9000 and similar Sapphires. The artifacts we saw were worse than anything I've seen on EasyCaps..

I would assume user error until proven otherwise. If it was an ATI rebadge, and was "AIW", then it had a Theatre chipset.

I know what you're saying. It was a rebadge, not "AIW". There was crosshatching, heavy macroblock, and other problems, consistent over a range of captures. The owner finally ended up finding a used AIW 7500, problem solved. That was 4 or 5 years ago. One of hour of searching last night failed to find the thread. But as I recall, last time I glanced at it a while back the links to videos and screen captures were dead. Seems like an old hand like BrainStorm69 was advising on that post (don't hold me to that one, but it was someone who's been around for quite a while).

But I thought the Theater 200 chip was actually the encoder/decoder for direct to MPEG capture and MMC. I recorded some 24 hours of Katrina coverage with MMC via analog cable. But that was the last time I installed an AIW card with MMC. Been using VirtualDub capture ever since. The MPEG encoder/decoder used in those AIW's was from Zykor (so I read somewhere), and I thought that was an element of the Theater 200 chip ? ?

[Tel147]

OK, I'll temporarily fit the drives into the PC (SATA) until full, then I plan on using a lossless splitter to separate the 3 hour tapes into individually named files, that will then be stored back on two 1TB drives (they are 3.5" fan-cooled). I always backup to a second drive at least, and I'll still keep the VHS tapes so that should be fairly safe for now.

Thanks for the info on TBC's, I'll look into it and decide whether its worth it for me.

I bought the eBay Sapphire card, so once I get a cable I'll upload a clip perhaps. There will no doubt be more questions to answer before committing to settings etc.

What are you doing again? Don't analog capture DV.
Only capture analog sources as analog. Maybe your DV tape masters are gone?

Yes, sadly I no longer have the original DV recordings (I reused the tapes many times). I transferred all that I do still have with Windows Movie Maker DV import, which I guess is like any other import feature in any other software.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[lordsmurf]

But I thought the Theater 200 chip was actually the encoder/decoder for direct to MPEG capture and MMC. I recorded some 24 hours of Katrina coverage with MMC via analog cable. But that was the last time I installed an AIW card with MMC. Been using VirtualDub capture ever since. The MPEG encoder/decoder used in those AIW's was from Zykor (so I read somewhere), and I thought that was an element of the Theater 200 chip ? ?

Theatre 100 / Rage Theatre
Theatre 200

It's the chipset, period.
Both had added Ligos algorithms that hardware-assisted when using ATI MMC for MPEG.
But the same chipset captures AVI.

Lots of info here: ATI All In Wonder Hacks, Drivers, Codecs and MMC

[sanlyn]

Thanks for clarifying, LS. Good link, too.