How to set overlapping "safe limit" of 30 miliseconds with SW?

[Valerc]

Hi!

I need to strictly mantain a limit of no less than 30 miliseconds between consecutive subtitles. I am using SW but apparently it only can detect overlapping when it´s really an overlapping. I want to avoid having subtitles closer than 30 miliseconds to each other. Does anybody know how to do it with SW? I am not sure if it is possible. I used Tools/info and errors/settings/advanced/tolerance for repeated subtitles... and fixed that to 30 but it didn´t work.

When I run the check errors, it didn´t catch muy subtitles which were closer than 30 miliseconds.

Can somebody please help?

Thanks!!

[jman98]

I can help in so far as telling you that you definitely need to avoid using AKOTY - Acronyms Known Only To You.

Not your best plan to abbreviate (I am assuming here) Subtitle Workshop as SW since the majority of our users will think you mean "software" by using that. Just FYI we also have issues with newer members using "HD" to mean both "hard disk" and "high definition" and you might be surprised but sometimes it actually isn't clear at all which one they mean and they end up getting answers about the one they don't mean.

Generally speaking avoid abbreviations where any ambiguity can occur and if you don't know whether it's ambiguous or not, then don't abbreviate. Or abbreviate and get no help. Makes no difference to me. It might also be good to tell what format your subs are in, but if you prefer that we also play guessing games, then that's your choice too. I'm not aware of anything that can do this, but if you want to provide more details (confirm that you really mean Subtitle Workshop and tell what format your subs are in) that might help - if there is a program that can do what you want.

[Valerc]

LOL... You made me laugh a bit. You are right, though. Yes, I mean Subtitle Workshop! The format is really not so important, as I am finding out about program features. But, well, it is .srt

Any idea, jman?

[jagabo]

I've never tried it, and I only occasionally use Subtitle Workshop, but maybe there's a way you can trick the program into doing what you want: Can you add 30 ms to all subtitles (I don't know if it can do this), have it adjust the length for overlaps, then subtract 30 ms from all the subtitles?

[Valerc]

LOL... You made me laugh a bit. You are right, though. Yes, I mean Subtitle Workshop! The format is really not so important, as I am finding out about program features. But, well, it is .srt

Any idea, jman?

[Valerc]

I've never tried it, and I only occasionally use Subtitle Workshop, but maybe there's a way you can trick the program into doing what you want: Can you add 30 ms to all subtitles (I don't know if it can do this), have it adjust the length for overlaps, then subtract 30 ms from all the subtitles?

I am not sure how I would do what you say, but anyways, it´s not that I need to make of 30 ms all the intervals between subtitles. Of course, some could be longer than that. What I don´t want is them to be smaller.

Also, there are other parameters that I should respect, like 34 characters max, length between 1 second minimum, and 6 secs maximum, and CPS between 10.5 and 14. As you can see all the factors are interralated, and you can´t touch one without altering another.

By the way, any good way to create subs under such requisites? I mean, to make it more time-effective?

[jagabo]

I've never tried it, and I only occasionally use Subtitle Workshop, but maybe there's a way you can trick the program into doing what you want: Can you add 30 ms to all subtitles (I don't know if it can do this), have it adjust the length for overlaps, then subtract 30 ms from all the subtitles?

I am not sure how I would do what you say, but anyways, it´s not that I need to make of 30 ms all the intervals between subtitles. Of course, some could be longer than that. What I don´t want is them to be smaller.

What I'm suggesting would only shorten a subtitle when there is less than a 30 ms gap between it and the next.

[Cornucopia]

Let me just do a little math here:
30msec =30 * 1 / 1000 = 0.03
30 FPS, each frame = 1/30th sec = 1 / 30 = 0.03333

Hmm, somehow these 2 figures seem familiar...that's because they are the same thing!

Iow, if you do not want to overlap, then put the subtitles ON DIFFERENT FRAMES. And if you want a gap, use multiples of the frame length. Since that is usually the clock reference, that's what you want to be doing anyway.

Scott

[hech54]

I'd LOVE to know on which planet you would notice a 30 millisecond difference between anything.

[Valerc]

Thanks to all who have been giving ideas. The thing is that these guys are VERY strict with parameters, and each subtitle has to fulfill the conditions I specified above. I totally agree that 30 ms is hard to notice by humans, hech54. But I need to find a way to "notice it".

OK, what I need to do is to have Subtitle Workshop to SIMPLY highlight for me the cases where I have involuntarily left a gap smaller than 30 ms between 2 subtitles. I just need to SEE it in the list of errors. Later, I will correct it either by using less or more words in the subtitle, changing the start and finish time, etc. I just want SW to show me where those gaps smaller than 30 ms are. And I will take the necessary desitions in each case. Any idea how to have SW to SHOW me the gaps smaller than 30ms?

[jagabo]

I just tried what I suggested earlier in Subtitle workshop. It can't do exactly what you want but you can add 30 ms to every sub and check for overlapping errors. It will show you all subs that overlap (among other possible errors). You will then know which lines need fixing in the original SRT file.

You can use the automatic fix but it makes the gap 35 ms when it fixes a gap. If you then subtract 30 ms from every sub to restore all the others to their original duration the gap on the fixed ones will be 65 ms.

[Valerc]

I just tried what I suggested earlier in Subtitle workshop. It can't do exactly what you want but you can add 30 ms to every sub and check for overlapping errors. It will show you all subs that overlap (among other possible errors). You will then know which lines need fixing in the original SRT file.

You can use the automatic fix but it makes the gap 35 ms when it fixes a gap. If you then subtract 30 ms from every sub to restore all the others to their original duration the gap on the fixed ones will be 65 ms.

Hey, jagabo. Thanks!

Could you please tell me how you do the automatic fix? Do you mean choosing the option "choose overlapping" from the check errors options? The problem is that according to SW parameters, an overlap is stictly a case where subtitle times are like this. It's a real overlap:

01:35:55:25 01:35:59:10
Hello.

01:35:58:12 01:36:02:28
How are you?

What I need is that SW uses my own definition of overlapping, which means that overlapping is any distance between subtitles which is smaller than 30ms.

[jagabo]

What I need is that SW uses my own definition of overlapping, which means that overlapping is any distance between subtitles which is smaller than 30ms.

1) Add 30 ms to every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer).
2) Fix overlaps (Tools -> Information and Errors -> Information and Errors).
3) Subtract 30 ms from every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer).

[Valerc]

What I need is that SW uses my own definition of overlapping, which means that overlapping is any distance between subtitles which is smaller than 30ms.

1) Add 30 ms to every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer).
2) Fix overlaps (Tools -> Information and Errors -> Information and Errors).
3) Subtract 30 ms from every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer).

Hey, jagabo... But if you add 30 ms and later you substract them, isn´t it the same than not doing anything at all?

[jagabo]

See step 2.

[Valerc]

See step 2.

I see it, but in SW the "fix overlap" works to fix negative overlaps, like in my previous example...

So, if you add 30 ms your gaps are at +30 ms, then you fix overlaps and you are at: 30 ms + 0, and then you substract you initial 30 ms and your gaps become zero...

Am I wrong?

[jagabo]

Well, you understand that adding 30 ms then subtracting 30 ms leaves the durations unchanged. Let's look at the case where there is less than 30 ms between the end of one subtitle and the start of the next:

sub1 - 0.000 to 4.399
sub2 - 4.400 to 6.000

The gap here is only 0.001 seconds. Subtitle Workshop will not call that an overlap. Step 1, add 30 ms to both:

sub1 - 0.000 to 4.429
sub2 - 4.400 to 6.030

Subtitle Workshop will now see a 29 ms overlap. Step 2, run the overlap fixer:

sub1 - 0.000 to 4.365
sub2 - 4.400 to 6.030

There is now a 35 ms gap between the two subtitles (I don't know if that value is configurable within the program). Finally, we need to restore the length of all the other subtitles. Step 3, subtract 30 ms from every subtitle:

sub1 - 0.000 to 4.335
sub2 - 4.400 to 6.000

The second subtitle is exactly as it was before we started. But there is now a 65 ms gap between the two subtitles. That's more than your required 30 but probably acceptable.

If you can't live with the extra large gap, just look at the report Subtitle Workshop generates at step 2 and fix the length of the overlapping subs manually. Ie, reopen the sub file and change the duration of the ones that overlapped.

[AlanHK]

1) Add 30 ms to every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer).
2) Fix overlaps (Tools -> Information and Errors -> Information and Errors).
3) Subtract 30 ms from every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer).

Actually you don't need step 2; in step 1 use the Time Expander option "Prevent overlapping".
(Using version 2.52 at least.)

But you also need to set the minimum gap in the program settings to 1 ms (default is 300).


Then the timings change like this:

original
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,399
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,000
00:00:06,030 --> 00:00:08,000

expand 30 ms (note: "prevent overlaps" means the 1st sub does not change)
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,399
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,030
00:00:06,030 --> 00:00:08,030

reduce 30 ms
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,369
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,000
00:00:06,030 --> 00:00:08,000

So now gaps less than 30 ms are expanded to 31 ms.

[jagabo]

1) Add 30 ms to every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer).
2) Fix overlaps (Tools -> Information and Errors -> Information and Errors).
3) Subtract 30 ms from every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer).

Actually you don't need step 2; in step 1 use the Time Expander option "Prevent overlapping".
(Using version 2.52 at least.)

I missed that!

[Valerc]

Thanks so much for your ideas, jagabo and AlanHK! I will try all this and tell you how it worked... Thanks!!

[Valerc]

OK, my news are...

This option gives me an error message in SW (the Time Expander/Reducer option):

1) Add 30 ms to every subtitle (Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer)

Is that happening to someone else?

Also, I discovered that you can actually fix a gap like you want: Settings->General->Advanced->Gap between subtitles

BUT, the gaps are only fixed like this if the program needs to correct them. I mean, if your overlapping is negative. If I define a rule for my gaps as no smaller than 30 ms and later I make the difference between subtitles at just 8 ms, that can´t be fixed, apparently...

So, still the same: it fixes negative gaps, but not positive gaps.

[AlanHK]

Also, I discovered that you can actually fix a gap like you want: Settings->General->Advanced->Gap between subtitles

BUT, the gaps are only fixed like this if the program needs to correct them.

Which I why expanding the duration of existing subs is necessary to trigger that.

This option gives me an error message in SW (the Time Expander/Reducer option):

Exactly what error?

Post your original SRT file as an attachment and I'll see what happens when I try it, because the method I outlined works fine on my files.

[jagabo]

I've never had a problem with Edit -> Timings -> Time Expander/Reducer.

[Valerc]

Hi again... My original .srt file has nothing special. I keep changing the times all the time to try these things. And like I said, if the overlapping is negative, it DOES correct it to respect my 30 ms gap. But if the gaps are not negative and only 10 ms, it DOES NOT correct them...

The error comes when I try to change the times for the Time Expander/Reducer.
It prompts a message saying that I need to report the error to a gmail address they show.

[Valerc]

I'm not happy at all with this... It´s not so automatic.

It´s not good at all to do it like this. I simply need that the errors get listed in the list of errors: all the gaps smaller than 30 ms...

You need a way to do a quality check, and the way you are suggesting doesn´t allow you to do a quality check. Still, I haven't found a way to detect the gaps smaller than 30 ms...

[AlanHK]

But if the gaps are not negative and only 10 ms, it DOES NOT correct them...

The method I described in post #18 does correct those.

Hi again... My original .srt file has nothing special. I keep changing the times all the time to try these things. And like I said, if the overlapping is negative, it DOES correct it to respect my 30 ms gap. But if the gaps are not negative and only 10 ms, it DOES NOT correct them...

The error comes when I try to change the times for the Time Expander/Reducer.
It prompts a message saying that I need to report the error to a gmail address they show.

Again:
1) state exactly what error message you get
2) attach the SRT to your post

[jagabo]

But if the gaps are not negative and only 10 ms, it DOES NOT correct them...

Yes it does. When you add 30 ms to every sub those that had a 10 ms gap now overlap by 20 ms. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

[Valerc]

That is not the solution I need. Of course, what I need is the most practical solution, the quickest, simplest and most accurate.
This doesn´t sound practical and accurate to me. Imagine that only 47 of my 1200 subtitles are wrong. Would you apply a delay of +30 ms to all the subtitles, fix the overlap for all the subtitles and later substract -30 ms to all the subtitles? That´s not good at all.

I only want to SEE in red or whatever color the lines I need to correct and go to those lines without doing anyting to the rest... That´s practical and accurate.

[Valerc]

About the error, I changed the numbers and it´s not showing anymore. It needed to use 00,1 instead of 0,1. I learnt in school that 00,1 is the same than 0,1 but the program has its own ideas.

Whatever, this is not really important. The important thing is that this is not a good system to solve what I need to do.

Like I said, none of these ideas allow you to do a FINAL quality check and simply verify if all your lines have gaps of at least 30 ms. That is never shown in the list of errors.

[jagabo]

Your final quality check is to add 30 ms to every subtitle and check for overlaps.