Odd Layer Break Behaviour

[koberulz]

Occasionally, when authoring DVDs, there seem to be multiple layer breaks. I'll set a layer break in Encore, pick that same layer break from the options given by ImgBurn, then burn. Mostly, this works fine, but occasionally the hang will occur both at the chosen layer break point and at one of the other points ImgBurn offered. Even worse, sometimes this results in the DVD going backwards once it reaches the second layer break - in this particular case, it hung at the second layer break, then jumped back to the first layer break, then played through fine the rest of the way.

What on earth is going on?

[jman98]

Hang on WHAT? A standalone player? Standalone players are not particularly reliable. In fact just a few years ago it was possible to find standalone DVD players that either stopped playing discs all together when they hit the layer break on consumer burned DVD (even good Verbatim DVD+R DL discs) or wouldn't play them at all.

I'm curious how exactly you know that the disc is hanging at "one of the other points ImgBurn offered". There's only ONE layer break on dual layer DVDs - NO EXCEPTIONS. So your terminology is wrong and it makes it difficult to understand what is going on. ImgBurn may present you with multiple choices, but on your burns I can assure you that one and only one break will be used.

What media are you using? You should be aware that if it's not Verbatim, it's crap. Period. The ONLY consistently reliable dual layer consumer burnable DVD media is Verbatim's DVD+R DL discs. I recommend either the expensive and inkjet printable DataLifePlus ones or the 6x-10x ones both of which are still made in Singapore. Other Verbatim DVD+R DL discs may be made in India and they aren't quite as good as the Singapore made ones, but the Indian ones are OK if you don't burn too fast on them (4x or 2.4x is best). Your problems may actually be bad media problems if you're not using Verbatim.

[koberulz]

I'm curious how exactly you know that the disc is hanging at "one of the other points ImgBurn offered". There's only ONE layer break on dual layer DVDs - NO EXCEPTIONS. So your terminology is wrong and it makes it difficult to understand what is going on. ImgBurn may present you with multiple choices, but on your burns I can assure you that one and only one break will be used.

I know, but it's acting like there are multiple layer breaks. That half-second hang you get at the layer break? It happens twice. Once at the actual layer break, and once at one of the other potential layer break points offered by ImgBurn.

Essentially, when you go to burn a DL disc with ImgBurn, it pops up a 'choose layer break' dialog. You can, from there, preview multiple different layer break locations. This disc hangs at one of the first locations it offered, and then hangs again at the point I chose to use as the layer break (before, for some reason, jumping back to the previous hang-point instead of continuing to play the disc).

What media are you using?

Verbatim Inkjet Printable DVD+R DL - the label also says DataLifePlus on it - burning at 2x.

[robjv1]

That's interesting.

Yeah, it is not possible to have multiple layer breaks, but perhaps the algorithm that detects the most cherry spots for the layer break is just overlapping in its selections with your authoring software's attempts to find the best chapter stops -- i.e. after what is clearly a scene change, with several seconds of a relatively still image -- and your player is just hanging on some of the chapter stops. The "jumping back" and around behavior that you're describing happens on some players where it cannot read the disc and it'll go back to the previous chapter stop or skip to the next after several attempts to read it.

Just a thought, but it is a very weird problem, I hope you're able to identify a solution.

[koberulz]

The initial hang, that it jumps back to after the second hang, is in the middle of a chapter. So that ain't it.

[koberulz]

Okay, so this just got weirder.

I author in Encore. Manually set the layer break to be at chapter three. Build image. Get two layer break options in ImgBurn: one gold, one silver. Both are the same point in the video. Neither are the start of chapter three. Go back to Encore. Build folder. Open in PGCEdit. Create ISO. Set Layer Break window opens, with three options. Two are highlighted blue. One is the start of chapter three, the other is the point ImgBurn picked earlier. Un-layerbreaked the one ImgBurn picked, but had advanced mode on so was just editing the IFO, not creating a disc image.

Open ImgBurn again, pick the blue layer break point burning from the folder. It's the start of chapter three, all is well.

Sit down, watch DVD. It gets to the start of chapter three...and jumps back to the ImgBurn-selected layer break position. This time, I'd unselected it in PGCEdit, so there was no hang. It plays through, gets to the start of chapter three again, hangs, and plays on.

So I fiddle with next chapter/previous chapter, and establish that:
1. There is no chapter marker where I put the chapter three chapter marker.
2. There is, for some reason, a chapter marker at the ImgBurn-selected layer break point.
3. The timer on the front of the DVD player keeps counting, and does not jump backwards when it skips from what should be the start of chapter three to where chapter three actually is.

So I open it back up in PGCEdit, and lo and behold the second layer break option - the one I didn't examine the first time in PGCEdit, but concluded was identical to the first in ImgBurn, is only identical from after the layer break point. Before that, it's the leadup to the chapter change.

So I open it back up in Encore. The chapter marker is exactly where I put it, and none of the footage repeats.



What in the everloving hell is going on?

[koberulz]

It's happened again. Built as a folder from Encore, ImgBurn let me have the Encore-selected layer break, so I didn't go into PGCEdit. It hangs at the layer break point, jumps back a bit, hangs once it gets back to the layer break point, then continues. The repetition is present in the ISO of the first disc, but not the VOB files. It also does not occur in the VOBs for the second disc.

Here's what the second disc looks like when you Create ISO in PGCEdit (the first option was initially highlighted, I highlighted the second so you could see the background color of both):

[jman98]

As I said earlier - Hang on WHAT? Are you talking about a standalone player or drive in a PC?

If you don't care enough to respond, I don't see any point in participating any further either.

[koberulz]

Both go back in time, though the standalone player is the only one to hang at any point including the layer break.

[koberulz]

Anyone?

[filmboss80]

Don't set a layer break with Encore, unless you are mastering to something like DLT tape. Don't create an .iso file. Create a VIDEO_TS folder. Set Imgburn to Build mode. When burning to disc, allow only Imgburn to set the layer break. If you do it this way, your problem will end.

[koberulz]

Encore sets a layer break anyway - the only two options are 'automatic' or 'manual'. Manually setting it allows me to set it to any frame I damn well please, which is extremely helpful given the sort of footage I'm working with which is 99% movement. ImgBurn gives me far more limited options, even building folders.

Is there really no way to keep the ability to specify a decent layer break and have it not completely screw up? It was working a couple of weeks ago with no issue whatsoever.

[filmboss80]

Encore sets a layer break anyway - the only two options are 'automatic' or 'manual'.

Can you remove Encore's layer break info using PgcEdit? If not, then you will need to forget about using Imgburn, and go with Encore's default burn-to-disc function.

The way you have it, it appears that Encore had laid down an instruction that told the DVD player, "hey, switch from layer 0 to layer 1 right at this spot," but that designated spot in the program might not have been where Imgburn PHYSICALLY started layer 1. (I'm not absolutely positive that this is what actually happened in your case, but I think it's a solid theory. Others in this forum may wish to chime in.)

Since DVD players need to know where the layer break occurs, they will read the layer break information in the control data in the lead-in part of the disc. The layer break has to be at the start of a new ECC (Error Checking and Correction) block, at a sector address that is evenly divisible by 16. A layer break will happen at the start of a cell, and it needs to point to the start of an IFO File, or the start of a program cell within a VOB. In the likelihood that Encore's default DVD burner allocates IFOs and BUPs in different locations on the blank disc from what Imgburn would choose (or Nero for that matter), this could affect the allocation of all other files on the blank disc. Encore's ideal layer break points might be in variance to Imgburn's ideal layer break points.

Remember, Encore is also designed to write layer break info to DDP images for replication. That may involve mastering to hard drive or DLT tape; not just a disc. Imgburn deals with discs only. They do things differently.

[koberulz]

It's worked fine 99% of the time, though, which is why this makes no sense. And if you look at the PGCEdit screenshot, there are two non-seamless cells there.

The thing is, that the ISO image, and the previews that play in PGCEdit and ImgBurn, all include the skip back from the chosen layer break point to the previous possible layer break point, after which it plays through fine, so it's not a problem with locations on the disc (unless there's something I've misunderstood). The repetition is added even before opening in ImgBurn. It's not present in the VOB file itself though, which makes little sense. And again, the timer keeps ticking over when the footage jumps back, meaning that the piece of footage in question is actually repeated, not jumped back to.

[filmboss80]

My familiarity with Encore is fading, but I seem to recall that Encore does not even set layer breaks unless you're building to disc or DLT. If you're exporting all the DVD elements to a folder to hard drive, then it should not even be prompting you for a layer break selection. If Encore itself is prompting Manual or Automatic layer break options, then you have selected the wrong build mode. Do what I suggested earlier. Build to a VIDEO_TS folder on your hard drive, then burn that to disc with Imgburn. That will be that.

[koberulz]

You recall incorrectly; it prompts for a layer break - when 'Layer Break' is set to manual - for both folders and disc images. And in any event, given that it works the other 99% of the time, I'd like the ability to be much more specific than ImgBurn will allow with regards to layer break location.

[filmboss80]

Oh yeah, Encore may ask for a layer break when you're building a folder, but Imgburn, as I recall, will override it. However, if you build to .iso, Imgburn will try to obey Encore's layer break. My instructions to build to a VIDEO_TS folder (given twice before in this thread) still apply. And it ain't just me saying this...

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/346943-Encore-and-the-DVD-9-layer-break?p=2168933#post2168933

And if you insist on letting Encore determine the layer break, what's to stop you from letting Encore burn the disc, instead of Imgburn?

[koberulz]

Except that I've had exactly this problem building to a folder and then burning with ImgBurn.


I did try burning with Encore once, but it went badly (though I don't recall what happened). People here generally recommend burning with ImgBurn and ImgBurn alone anyway.

EDIT: And is there any reason to believe burning in Encore will fix the problem? Encore appears to be causing the problem by building incorrectly in the first place; eliminating other steps that aren't changing anything isn't going to suddenly fix the problem. Build as a folder in Encore, open in PGCEdit - without changing anything in PGCEdit - and the footage repeats. Build as an ISO in Encore, mount and play, and the footage repeats.

Encore is the problem here.

[r0lZ]

First, there is no "layer break" in a pre-authored DVD. The layer-break exists only on physical DL DVD. It's a particular sequence of bytes that the burner writes to disc (or more exactly, the burner instructs the drive to write that sequence) at the position selected either automatically or manually by the burner program. When a DVD is copied to disc, the original layer break position is lost. Similarly, when a DVD is authored from scratch, there is no way to put a layer break at a specific position.

However, the layer break must be at the beginning of a cell (but doesn't need to be at the beginning of a chapter), and it must theoretically have the "seamless joint" flag clear. "Seamless joint clear = layer break" is a common confusion, introduced by IfoEdit. If the layer break should have the seamless joint clear, that doesn't mean that all cells with the seamless joint clear are physical layer breaks, or are intended to be the position of the layer break. For example, the cell following a cell with a cell-command must have the seamless joint clear. The first cell of a PGC must also have the seamless joint clear.

When a cell has the seamless joint clear, the player is supposed to stop the playback, examine if the previous cell has a cell command and if it's the case, execute it, or leave some time to the hardware to switch to the second layer and refocus the laser, then continue the playback. It's why there is usually a little pause when the player encounters a cell with the seamless joint clear. That pause is usually unnoticeable with most software players, due to the buffering capacities of a PC. So, if a cell has the seamless joint clear for no good reason, a standalone player may pause for one second or two, without reason.

I don't use Encore, but I suppose that it clears the seamless joint flag on the cell that is selected for the layer break, and it assumes that the burner will detect and use that cell for the physical layer break. It's not a good idea IMO, but that's another story. You should enable the seamless joint of all cells of the main movie (except the first cell, and unless there is a cell command on the previous cell) before burning it with ImgBurn, and let ImgBurn decide where the layer break should be set, and clear the seamless break of that cell. (BTW, ImgBurn has a "seamless layer break" option that allow you to burn the DVD without clearing the seamless joint flag at the layer break position. That option works with most players, and is often sufficient to completely remove the little pause during the layer change.)

In summary, if the player pauses two times during the playback of the main movie, that may indicate that there are two cells with the seamless joint clear, and you should set the flag at least on the cell that is not used for the layer break. If your player hangs completely, or start playing a wrong cell after the layer break, that's probably not directly related to the layer break and seamless joint problem, and it's probably due to an authoring error.

I have not enough information to be sure it's the case, but according to your screenshot in post #7, there are two chapters assigned to the same cell. Cells 4 and 5 have the same VOB/Cell ID (1/4) and both start at 00:00:43.18. Furthermore, the 3 lines are highlighted in blue, and that means that the 3 cells have the seamless joint clear. Obviously, there is a big authoring error, and at least a mess with the seamless joints. The fact that 2 chapters point to the same cell may explain why your player plays twice the same cell. After all, it does what it is supposed to do: play the cells in sequential order.

I don't know if Encore is the culprit, or if you have edited that DVD that way, but IMO, the behaviour of your player is perfectly normal, given the strange authoring of the DVD.

If you want a confirmation, please post here the cells table of the main movie, or examine it yourself.

[koberulz]

Furthermore, the 3 lines are highlighted in blue, and that means that the 3 cells have the seamless joint clear.

The middle one isn't non-seamless, it's just been highlighted with the mouse as it's impossible to have none highlighted. Thus the different shade of blue.

Obviously, there is a big authoring error, and at least a mess with the seamless joints. The fact that 2 chapters point to the same cell may explain why your player plays twice the same cell. After all, it does what it is supposed to do: play the cells in sequential order.

The thing is - and this is why I didn't realise what was going on earlier - it's actually moved the chapter point. It should be at the second non-seamless cell, but has somehow been moved to the first. I initially set the layer break at the chapter point in Encore, which was the second of the two non-seamless cells, but the chapter point has suddenly been moved to the first of the two non-seamless cells.

If you want a confirmation, please post here the cells table of the main movie

How do I do that?

[filmboss80]

Except that I've had exactly this problem building to a folder and then burning with ImgBurn.


I did try burning with Encore once, but it went badly (though I don't recall what happened). People here generally recommend burning with ImgBurn and ImgBurn alone anyway.

EDIT: And is there any reason to believe burning in Encore will fix the problem? Encore appears to be causing the problem by building incorrectly in the first place; eliminating other steps that aren't changing anything isn't going to suddenly fix the problem. Build as a folder in Encore, open in PGCEdit - without changing anything in PGCEdit - and the footage repeats. Build as an ISO in Encore, mount and play, and the footage repeats.

Encore is the problem here.

YES! Encore is the problem. And like everyone else, I recommend burning with Imgburn. I only mentioned burning with Encore, because in Post #16, you said this:

...I'd like the ability to be much more specific than ImgBurn will allow with regards to layer break location.

You can't have it both ways. If you want to burn with Imgburn, you have to accept the layer break that Imgburn picks. And as Lightning UK said in the other forum post I earlier linked to, you have to author to a folder, NOT an .iso. And don't let PgcEdit determine a layer break either. I repeat: do not give Imgburn an ISO in this case. I don't know how many times or ways that I can say this.

And thanks to r0lZ for chiming in. I was hoping someone with better knowledge of cell break behavior than I would offer assistance. Frankly, I'm getting tired of going around in circles. I'm handing this off to you, r0lZ. I'm tired.

[koberulz]

You can't have it both ways.

Why not? Encore is building it wrong, so it doesn't matter what I burn with, I'm going to get the same result, and it's worked perfectly in the past. I have twelve discs sitting right here in front of me with which I had no problem whatsoever doing exactly what I'm trying to do with these two, plus countless others on the shelf.

And as Lightning UK said in the other forum post I earlier linked to, you have to author to a folder, NOT an .iso.

Firstly, I can't see it making a difference. Secondly, that's what I did, and it still caused a problem.

[r0lZ]

I don't think Encore can "be much more specific than ImgBurn will allow with regards to layer break location." Of course, since Encore is the authoring program, it can break a cell in two parts, for example to put the layer break in the middle of a chapter. But if you want to put it at an existing cell (or chapter), Encore offers probably fewer possibilities than ImgBurn (because ImgBurn can create gaps in the first layer, and that allow you to put more data in L1 than in L0, something impossible with most burning apps.)

Anyway, as I've tried to explain, if you don't burn with Encore, that means that Encore is totally UNABLE to determine the layer break position. It can ONLY clear the seamless flag on the cell it has selected for the layer break, in the hope that the burning app will use that cell for the layer break. If the burning app uses another cell, you will have a cell wrongly flagged as non-seamless, for no reason. That's all. So, IMO, you should enable all seamless flags manually with PgcEdit, and use ImgBurn, that will do the job of clearing the flag of the cell it will REALLY use for the layer break.

I agree with filmboss80. You should NOT create an ISO if you want to burn it and select the LB with ImgBurn. An ISO is an image of the DVD, and as such is not easily modifiable. It has been mastered to place the LB at a specific place, and the burning app must know exactly where it is located to burn it correctly. You cannot change it any more. Burning files on HDD is much more flexible, and allow ImgBurn to create the LB where you want it (and, if needed, create the gap to place more data in L1).

BTW, if you know how PgcEdit burns the DVDs, you have probably noticed that it creates an ISO, and burns it with ImgBurn. So, it seems that it's a contradiction with what I wrote above. In fact, when I wrote the Burn function, there was no app able to correctly burn a DL DVD. Even Nero failed miserably! It's why I wrote the PgcEdit burn function. At that time, ImgBurn was not born yet, and PgcEdit used DVD Decrypter to burn the ISO. DVD Decrypter was already able to burn DL DVD+R/RW (not -R/RW), but it has no GUI to get the LB cell, and it was unable to patch the IFOs accordingly. Therefore, the PgcEdit burn clears the seamless joint flag itself, then uses Mkisofs to create an ISO (because that was the only app that can place the layer break correctly and create the gaps as they should be). Then the burn function called DVD Decrypter from the command line, with the option that informs it of the position of the layer break. Without passing it that option, DVD Decrypter was unable to place it at the right position.

Later, LUK wrote ImgBurn. It is compatible with DVD Decrypter, so I've just changed the PgcEdit Burn to use it, but it continues to work exactly the same way. But ImgBurn is much more powerful than DVD Decrypter. In fact, it has implemented the LB stuff for +R/RW exactly the same way as PgcEdit, but later it has also added the possibility to specify it for the -R/RW. So, currently, the PgcEdit Burn function is obsolete, as it is easier and quicker to use ImgBurn (because it doesn't need to write an ISO on HDD).

Anyway, if you understand my somewhat obscure explanation above, that means that you can burn a DL ISO with ImgBurn only if you pass it the address (or more precisely, the LBA) of the layer break. You can do it with the command line, or with a special little file (I don't remember its extension right now). So, unless Encore can call ImgBurn itself and pass it the LBA, you should never use it to create an ISO and burn it manually with ImgBurn, as otherwise, ImgBurn may put the layer break at a wrong position, and it will be unable to change the seamless joint flag.

[r0lZ]

Furthermore, the 3 lines are highlighted in blue, and that means that the 3 cells have the seamless joint clear.

The middle one isn't non-seamless, it's just been highlighted with the mouse as it's impossible to have none highlighted. Thus the different shade of blue.

OK. But the fact is that there are still 2 cells with the seamless flag clear. At least one of them should be cleared.

Obviously, there is a big authoring error, and at least a mess with the seamless joints. The fact that 2 chapters point to the same cell may explain why your player plays twice the same cell. After all, it does what it is supposed to do: play the cells in sequential order.

The thing is - and this is why I didn't realise what was going on earlier - it's actually moved the chapter point. It should be at the second non-seamless cell, but has somehow been moved to the first. I initially set the layer break at the chapter point in Encore, which was the second of the two non-seamless cells, but the chapter point has suddenly been moved to the first of the two non-seamless cells.

The chapter point is not the problem. The fact is that the same cell is repeated twice, meaning that it will be played twice (regardless of the position of the chapter points). I suppose it's not intentional, and you have probably used a wrong Encore function to "move the chapter point". You have inadvertently copied the cell, instead of just change the position of the chapter point. So, you should fix that error in Encore, or you can do it with PgcEdit. I can explain how, but I need to see your cells table.

If you want a confirmation, please post here the cells table of the main movie

How do I do that?

Use Info -> PGC and post the result here within [ CODE ] tags (use the # button in the advanced message editor of this forum), or post a screenshot of the PGC Editor window.

[koberulz]

I don't think Encore can "be much more specific than ImgBurn will allow with regards to layer break location."

Encore allows me to set it wherever I want - within a certain range, of course - down to a frame. ImgBurn leaves me stuck with whatever cell breaks are available. Presumably, Encore ensures that a cell break occurs at the point I'd like the layer break to be, which wouldn't necessarily happen otherwise.

It can ONLY clear the seamless flag on the cell it has selected for the layer break, in the hope that the burning app will use that cell for the layer break.

Even when burning an Encore-created ISO, I still get the 'select layer break' dialog. It always includes as an option the break selected in Encore, which will be flagged as 'Very Good', where all other options, including all options if I don't manually set a layer break with Encore, are either 'Good' or 'Average'. The only times it's failed to pick up the Encore layer break are when this duplicate cell thing happens.

The chapter point is not the problem. The fact is that the same cell is repeated twice, meaning that it will be played twice (regardless of the position of the chapter points). I suppose it's not intentional, and you have probably used a wrong Encore function to "move the chapter point".

Actually, I'm not sure if the chapter point has moved, now that I think about it. It's between the two repeats of the cell. So if the cell didn't repeat, it'd be in the right place.

In any event, I haven't moved the chapter point at any stage. Why the cell is copying, I have no idea.

Cell tables for disc one (where I did go into PGCEdit and unflag the second non-seamless cell):

VTST 2 , 1   TTN 1  (3:05:49)  Title 1 - Chapters: 6,  Programs: 6,  Cells: 8 

********** pre commands:
********** post commands:
   1  (CallSS) Call the VMGM PGC 4, resume cell 1 
********** cell commands:
   1  LinkTailPGC 



 Playback time:  03:05:49.07 (at 30 fps)
 PG Playback mode:  sequential
 PUOs:           0 (0x00000000)
 NextPGCN:       0
 PrevPGCN:       0
 GoUpPGCN:       0
 PGC Still Time: 0
 Audio  stream  1 status: 0x00008000 (stream=0)

 BOVs Chap. Prog. Cell  Type  Seam- Ang VOBU  Cell  Cell  Playback     End          Entry    First    Last     Last     VOB Cell
      (PTT)             Flags less      Still Still Cmd.  Time         Time         VOBU     ILVU     VOBU     VOBU     ID  ID
                              Joint           Time  #                               sector   End      Start    End

 ?    1     1     1     3     no    -   no    0     0     01:07:52.00  01:07:52.00  0        0        1447722  1448107  1   1
 ?    2     2     2     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:24:42.12  01:32:34.12  1448108  0        1975112  1975401  1   2
 ?                3     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:53.18  01:33:28.00  1975402  0        1993981  1994388  1   3
 ?    3     3     4     11    yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:53.18  01:34:21.18  1975402  0        1993981  1994388  1   3
 ?                5     3     no    -   no    0     0     00:43:03.18  02:17:25.06  1994531  0        2913180  2913342  2   1
 ?    4     4     6     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:22:22.12  02:39:47.18  2913343  0        3390382  3390753  2   2
 ?    5     5     7     9     yes   -   no    0     1     00:26:01.07  03:05:48.25  3390754  0        3945951  3946053  2   3
 ?    6     6     8     3     no    -   no    0     0     00:00:00.12  03:05:49.07  3946054  0        3946054  3946057  3   1

And for disc two (where I didn't):

VTST 2 , 1   TTN 1  (3:18:11)  Title 1 - Chapters: 7,  Programs: 7,  Cells: 9 

********** pre commands:
********** post commands:
   1  (CallSS) Call the VMGM PGC 4, resume cell 1 
********** cell commands:
   1  LinkTailPGC 



 Playback time:  03:18:11.12 (at 30 fps)
 PG Playback mode:  sequential
 PUOs:           0 (0x00000000)
 NextPGCN:       0
 PrevPGCN:       0
 GoUpPGCN:       0
 PGC Still Time: 0
 Audio  stream  1 status: 0x00008000 (stream=0)

 BOVs Chap. Prog. Cell  Type  Seam- Ang VOBU  Cell  Cell  Playback     End          Entry    First    Last     Last     VOB Cell
      (PTT)             Flags less      Still Still Cmd.  Time         Time         VOBU     ILVU     VOBU     VOBU     ID  ID
                              Joint           Time  #                               sector   End      Start    End

 ?    1     1     1     3     no    -   no    0     0     00:28:11.18  00:28:11.18  0        0        559580   559724   1   1
 ?    2     2     2     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:40:13.06  01:08:24.24  559725   0        1358101  1358287  1   2
 ?    3     3     3     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:30:26.12  01:38:51.06  1358288  0        1962419  1962670  1   3
 ?                4     1     no    -   no    0     0     00:00:43.18  01:39:34.24  1962671  0        1976960  1977111  1   4
 ?    4     4     5     11    yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:43.18  01:40:18.12  1962671  0        1976960  1977111  1   4
 ?                6     3     no    -   no    0     0     00:23:10.24  02:03:29.06  1977245  0        2437281  2437503  2   1
 ?    5     5     7     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:46:03.06  02:49:32.12  2437504  0        3353822  3354044  2   2
 ?    6     6     8     9     yes   -   no    0     1     00:28:38.18  03:18:11.00  3354045  0        3920458  3920611  2   3
 ?    7     7     9     3     no    -   no    0     0     00:00:00.12  03:18:11.12  3920612  0        3920612  3920615  3   1

[r0lZ]

OK, obviously, that confirms that a cell is repeated twice (in both discs).

Here is a simplified table (from disc 1), with just the elements of interest for the problem:

Chap. Cell  Seam- Playback     Entry    Last     VOB Cell
(PTT)       less  Time         VOBU     VOBU     ID  ID
            Joint              sector   End
      3     yes   00:00:53.18  1975402  1994388  1   3
3     4     yes   00:00:53.18  1975402  1994388  1   3
      5     no    00:43:03.18  1994531  2913342  2   1

First, cell 5 is flagged as non-seamless, and it's not the beginning of a chapter. You should use it with ImgBurn, or set the seamless flag and select another cell with ImgBurn.

But the big problem are the cells and the VOBU LBAs. Cells 3 and 4 are identical (except the chapter point assigned to cell 4). They have the same VOB and Cell IDs (1 and 3), and the same start and end VOBU. That's extremely strange.

Furthermore, in a normal DVD without ARccOS/RipGuard protections, the LBA of the first VOBU of a cell should be equal to the last VOBU of the previous cell plus 1. When it's the case, that means that the cells are contiguous on disc. But here, between cell 4 (or cell 3, identical) and 5, there is a gap of 143 VOBUs. That's also a big authoring problem, as I doubt it's intentional. That means that there are data between the two cells that cannot be played, since that part of the disc is not referenced in the PGC.

Note also that when there is a gap or a jump backward, the seamless flag should be clear, because the head of the drive must move to another position on disc, and the hardware needs time to do that. So, in this case, the seamless joint must be clear on cells 4 and 5, because the player must jump back to the beginning of cell 4 when cell 3 has finished playing, and because there is a gap between cell 4 and cell 5. If the cells are not flagged as non-seamless, the player will try to play the video seamlessly, but it doesn't have enough time to move the head, and it will probably hang.

I guess you have tried to inform Encode that you want the layer break near the end of cell 3 (but not at an existing chapter point) and that Encode has a severe bug. It has duplicated the cell, and for whatever reason, it has stopped here. It should have also changed the LBAs and the VOB/Cell IDs of cell 4 and all subsequent cells.

With PgcEdit, you can easily delete cell 3 or 4 to remove the dupe (click the "Remove Cells" button in the PGC Editor), and fix the seamless-joint flags, but you cannot fix the problem of the gap between cells 4 and 5. So, unfortunately, your DVD is unusable. Try to fix the problem with Encore (or use a better authoring program), and verify manually the cells table with PgcEdit before burning the DVD. Anyway, avoid to set the layer break at another position than the beginning of an existing cell, as obviously, Encode is unable to do it correctly. (And, BTW, that means that is NOT more powerful than ImgBurn.) If you want to set the layer break in the middle of a cell, author the disc normally, and use VobBlanker to cut the cell. (Wou will have to cut it at a VOBY boundary. That's not frame accurate, but at least, that works!)

Disc 2 has exactly the same problem, with cells 4, 5 and 6.

Sidenote: You will notice that cell 1 and the last cells have the seamless-joint flag clear. That's normal. Cell 1 must always have the seamless flag clear, and here, the last cell is a dummy black and very short chapter (approx. 0.5 seconds) certainly added to be able to skip to the end of the title with the Next Chapter button of the remote when the last real chapter is playing. In that case, it doesn't matter if the seamless-joint flag is set, since that tiny black chapter is not really a part of the movie. You will not notice the pause anyway.

[koberulz]

Encore was told to put the layer break at the chapter point. This seems the opposite of what you've concluded: putting the layer break somewhere other than at a chapter point has worked fine, but putting it on a chapter point - as I did with both these discs - causes this problem.

[r0lZ]

It's even more strange. Probably, it duplicates the cell anyway, although it doesn't need to do it. But that doesn't explain the gap.

Have you tried to not specify where to put it (and accept whatever it will think is the best place)? You can tick the seamless flag later with PgcEdit, and select the LB with ImgBurn.

[koberulz]

Tried building the first with the layer break set to 'automatic', and got this:

VTST 2 , 1   TTN 1  (3:04:56)  Title 1 - Chapters: 6,  Programs: 6,  Cells: 59 

********** pre commands:
********** post commands:
   1  (CallSS) Call the VMGM PGC 4, resume cell 1 
********** cell commands:
   1  LinkTailPGC 



 Playback time:  03:04:56.01 (at 30 fps)
 PG Playback mode:  sequential
 PUOs:           0 (0x00000000)
 NextPGCN:       0
 PrevPGCN:       0
 GoUpPGCN:       0
 PGC Still Time: 0
 Audio  stream  1 status: 0x00008000 (stream=0)

 BOVs Chap. Prog. Cell  Type  Seam- Ang VOBU  Cell  Cell  Playback     End          Entry    First    Last     Last     VOB Cell
      (PTT)             Flags less      Still Still Cmd.  Time         Time         VOBU     ILVU     VOBU     VOBU     ID  ID
                              Joint           Time  #                               sector   End      Start    End

 ?    1     1     1     3     no    -   no    0     0     01:07:52.00  01:07:52.00  0        0        1447722  1448107  1   1
 ?    2     2     2     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:19:05.06  01:26:57.06  1448108  0        1855294  1855425  1   2
 ?                3     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:27:18.24  1855426  0        1862749  1863049  1   3
 ?                4     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:27:40.00  1863050  0        1870428  1870569  1   4
 ?                5     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:28:01.18  1870570  0        1877954  1878291  1   5
 ?                6     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:28:23.06  1878292  0        1885693  1885966  1   6
 ?                7     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:28:44.24  1885967  0        1893475  1893721  1   7
 ?                8     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:29:06.00  1893722  0        1901116  1901253  1   8
 ?                9     9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:29:27.18  1901254  0        1908592  1908845  1   9
 ?                10    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:29:49.06  1908846  0        1916368  1916651  1   10
 ?                11    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:30:10.12  1916652  0        1924023  1924159  1   11
 ?                12    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:30:32.00  1924160  0        1931543  1931842  1   12
 ?                13    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:30:53.18  1931843  0        1939210  1939488  1   13
 ?                14    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:31:15.06  1939489  0        1946936  1947197  1   14
 ?                15    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:31:36.12  1947198  0        1954546  1954704  1   15
 ?                16    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:31:58.00  1954705  0        1962103  1962386  1   16
 ?                17    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:32:19.18  1962387  0        1969720  1970002  1   17
 ?                18    1     no    -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:32:40.24  1970003  0        1977442  1977592  1   18
 ?                19    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:33:02.12  1977593  0        1985063  1985318  1   19
 ?                20    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:33:24.00  1985319  0        1992684  1992954  1   20
 ?                21    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:04.00  01:33:28.00  1992955  0        1993976  1994383  1   21
 ?    3     3     22    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:17.06  01:33:45.06  1994384  0        2000444  2000574  1   22
 ?                23    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:34:06.24  2000575  0        2007933  2008194  1   23
 ?                24    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:34:28.12  2008195  0        2015567  2015867  1   24
 ?                25    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:34:50.00  2015868  0        2023055  2023302  1   25
 ?                26    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:35:11.06  2023303  0        2031001  2031140  1   26
 ?                27    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:35:32.24  2031141  0        2038674  2038908  1   27
 ?                28    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:35:54.12  2038909  0        2046217  2046514  1   28
 ?                29    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:36:15.18  2046515  0        2053890  2054032  1   29
 ?                30    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:36:37.06  2054033  0        2061466  2061746  1   30
 ?                31    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:36:58.24  2061747  0        2069067  2069354  1   31
 ?                32    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:37:20.00  2069355  0        2076767  2076908  1   32
 ?                33    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:37:41.18  2076909  0        2084358  2084662  1   33
 ?                34    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:38:03.06  2084663  0        2092021  2092292  1   34
 ?                35    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:38:24.24  2092293  0        2099715  2100000  1   35
 ?                36    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:38:46.00  2100001  0        2107449  2107546  1   36
 ?                37    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:39:07.18  2107547  0        2114914  2115193  1   37
 ?                38    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:39:29.06  2115194  0        2122628  2122898  1   38
 ?                39    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:39:50.12  2122899  0        2130260  2130404  1   39
 ?                40    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:40:12.00  2130405  0        2137822  2138093  1   40
 ?                41    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:40:33.18  2138094  0        2145529  2145816  1   41
 ?                42    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:40:55.06  2145817  0        2153241  2153527  1   42
 ?                43    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:41:16.12  2153528  0        2160954  2161100  1   43
 ?                44    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:41:38.00  2161101  0        2168372  2168635  1   44
 ?                45    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:41:59.18  2168636  0        2176118  2176423  1   45
 ?                46    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:42:20.24  2176424  0        2183731  2183871  1   46
 ?                47    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:42:42.12  2183872  0        2191366  2191648  1   47
 ?                48    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:43:04.00  2191649  0        2199115  2199365  1   48
 ?                49    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:43:25.06  2199366  0        2206691  2206834  1   49
 ?                50    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:43:46.24  2206835  0        2214255  2214499  1   50
 ?                51    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:44:08.12  2214500  0        2221828  2222124  1   51
 ?                52    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:44:30.00  2222125  0        2229613  2229899  1   52
 ?                53    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.06  01:44:51.06  2229900  0        2237343  2237474  1   53
 ?                54    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:45:12.24  2237475  0        2244878  2245138  1   54
 ?                55    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:00:21.18  01:45:34.12  2245139  0        2252535  2252812  1   55
 ?                56    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:30:57.18  02:16:32.00  2252813  0        2912942  2913306  1   56
 ?    4     4     57    9     yes   -   no    0     0     00:22:22.12  02:38:54.12  2913307  0        3390346  3390717  1   57
 ?    5     5     58    9     yes   -   no    0     1     00:26:01.07  03:04:55.19  3390718  0        3945915  3946016  1   58
 ?    6     6     59    3     no    -   no    0     0     00:00:00.12  03:04:56.01  3946017  0        3946017  3946020  2   1

Where on earth did all those extra cells come from? It's gone from eight cells to 59.

[r0lZ]

I don't know, as I don't use Encore. Obviously, Encore is full of bugs. IMO, you should throw it in the trashcan and use another authoring program. Or, if you are happy with the current authoring (except the problem of the cells of the main movie), try to demux the movie with PgcDemux and remux it with muxman, and import it back in the original DVD with PgcEdit.

You will have to edit the celltimes file to remove the entry points corresponding to the cells you don't need (to keep only the cells assigned to a chapter, and the cell for the layer break), and muxman will create the new VOBs with just the cells of the real chapters. If the LB cell does not correspond to a chapter point, you will also have to keep it in the celltimes.txt file, and later remove the program and chapter assigned to that cell with PgcEdit.

Anyway, despite these numerous useless cells, at least now, the movie should play correctly. There are no repeated cells and no gaps any more. It's certainly not perfect, but it's better than the previous attempts.

BTW, in the previous screenshots, you can see that Encore increments the VOB ID at the layer break cell. (I don't understand why some authoring programs do that, as it's not at all an obligation, but it's not an error.) Here, the same VOB ID is used for all cells (except for the last tiny chapter). So, it seems that Encore has several methods to decide how the cells must be created, and that these methods depend of the way the user specify the layer break point. It's really strange!