What 's the best way of TV subtitle conversion ?

[boulder]

I often record TVEi programs.
This is a Spanish FTA satellite TV station.
As Spanish is a foreign language to me, I like to cut the video with a tool such as Videoredo to preserve the subtitles, and then convert it to a DVD.
Now, their transmissions have both Teletext and DVB subtitles (which generally look better).
The question is : what is the best way of doing this conversion ?
I often play back the DVD at another location, and there I have a Silvercrest mediaplayer.
Problem is that if I simply copy the film as an MPEG2 file to a USB stick, and extract the subtitles to SRT format with ProjectX, then this Silvercrest Media Player will play the film with subtitles, but the text is in a single-colour, small font, that is not easily readable.
The original subtitles also use different colours, so that you can easily distinguish between different speakers talking, and that is lost in the process.
In the past I have tried other subtitle formats, but the player does not seem to recognise them.

The player has a DVD drive, however, and can play video DVD's.
So, I tried ConvertXtoDVD, and although it uses the DVB subtitles to create a nice looking conversion, I still have a problem, as the DVD then stutters, every couple of minutes there is a glitch, that isn't there in the original recording.
If I use Videoredo to produce a DVD without subtitles this seems to work just fine.

So I am looking for other ways of doing this, and I am confused with the guides here.
What would be the best thing to do ?
I imagine the first step would be extracting the subtitles from the .TS file.
But to which format ?
SRT, SSA, SON, ... ?
Would it be best to use the Teletext ones or the DVB (graphical) ones ?
And which tool can I then use those subtitles and burn them on DVD as switchable subtitles ?

Also, I hope this is the right subforum, as my question comprises issues with DVD authoring, subtitles, TV conversion, etc. it 's not easy to know which subforum to post this to.

[Budman1]

Boulder,
First the subtitle file in SSA and ASS (Both nearly identical) contain tags for setting individual lines colors, position, size, etc. SRT and some others only contain text and times. If you open them with a text editor you will see the big difference.

Second many people want to burn subtitles but there are 2 methods. One adds another track besides Video and Audio and needs turned on in your player or has a selection like the settings bar created in ConvertXtoDVD. I use AVImuxGui for this type then burn a DVD with ConvertXtoDVD if I want a DVD format with menus. The other type which almost all other methods create is "Hardcoded" menus where the text is actually incorporated into the graphics of the video. I like to compare it to painting the letters on a picket fence. They don't come off any more and you can't just see the fence alone any more.

I've just purchased ConvertXtoDVD and haven't had too many problems so far but if you are playing on your computer to test, be careful it's not just your computer that is sluggish. Also I've been conversing with the makers of ConvertXtoDVD because some tags in ASS and SSA have been changed and cause errors or plain do not transfer into the video. I've found using Aegisub and dragging the sub file to it will produce errors if something major is wrong.

So, which are you looking for? Subtitles that can be put on DVD and be turned on and off or ones that are permanently embedded? I have put a lot of videos and samples on my web page http://Budmansite.com if you have time to watch or download. Let me know what format you are coming from and what you wish to go to and I can send information IF you have a Windows machine. I have a Windows 7 Ultimate and use it a LOT for graphics. Let me know if you still need assistance.
Thanks
Budman1

[boulder]

Hi, Budman, thanks for responding.
It 's been such a long while since I posted my question that I have started trying out lots of stuff myself.

First of all, what I want are subtitled that can be turned on or off at will, so they cannot be burned into the movie.
I do this, because then it gives me the option to see the Spanish subtitles as an aid on better understanding the words I hear as a foreign language student, but I also want to be able to turn them off if I feel confident enough to watch the film without them.
Also, burning them in means recoding, which will decrease the image quality.
I want to do as little recoding as possible, so I definitely do not want to go to an AVI file in MPEG4 or so, then finally return to MPEG2 so that I can burn it on the DVD.

Second, I normally start with a digital TV recording from TVE internacional.
This transport stream is in the MPEG2 format, but they don't seem to broadcast in anamorph format, and on my TV I need to correct the aspect ratio, because it is not correct.
The consequence of this is that if you correct the image format you cannot zoom in, as the subtitles are then outside of the visible image.
So I would need to correct this as well by cropping the image, this means recoding after all, unfortunately, as the 16:9 film image is contained within a 4:3 image with black borders surrounding it.
Also, the broadcasts normally contain both Teletext with coloured subtitles (sometimes on one screen several different coloured subtitles are shown at once), and DVB subtitles with once more the same colours being used.

You mentioned ConvertXtoDVD, I have some mixed experiences with it.
On the one hand it can convert both the graphic subtitles and the Teletext ones, which is great.
On the other hand, I have noticed that the DVD's I burn stutter when played back upon a stand-alone media player.
I don't understand why, as TVEi broadcasts are really low in bitrate (about 2Mbps), and as the source was already in MPEG2, and the subtitles are on a separate layer, and the film has already been cut with Videoredo there should be no need to recode the whole film.
But when I look at the time it takes to go through the whole process, and the fact that you see the whole film passing by in the preview window, it looks to me that it is indeed being recoded, which doesn't make sense as the original is already MPEG2 and it never gets higher than 2Mbps, well within the DVD standards.

Although the subtitles that ConvertXtoDVD produces in case of using the graphical ones are very readable, but they are not using the right palette.

[boulder]

So, as I have not decided yet, which method I will use for performing this task, I thought I'd try accomplishing both (one starting from the graphical DVB subtitles, one from the teletext subtitles), and then seeing which one produces the best results.

I started with the subtitles that look best on the original : the DVB subtitles (like in the screenshot).
I tried demuxing the MPEG2 .TS with ProjectX to a SUP file, then using that in IFOEdit, but I could never get the colours right, so I ended up with greenish or transparent subtitles.
By using Ifoedit I would avoid recoding everything, as I suspect ConvertXtoDVD does.
I noticed that if I choose SON files (Karaoke format) the resulting BMPs are correct, so I tried modifying the colour table of ProjectX to use the colours I took by using the colour picker from GIMP with those BMPs.
The result was still totally unusable.

So then I thought, maybe I can let ConvertXtoDVD do the whole film, including the subtitles, and then I can get the palette from there via Ifoedit.
I tried that method with several SUP files I created with ProjectX, but I never got a workable result.

So finally I thought, let's have ConvertXtoDVD do the whole conversion, including the subtitles, then extract both the SUP file and the palette from there, and put it along the demuxed audio and video with IfoEdit.
I did that, and it was at that time I noticed the colours in ConvertXtoDVD were not correct, though the subtitles were perfectly readable.
I then found a tool (PGCDemux) to get the SUP file from the resultant VOB files ConvertXtoDVD created, and then with the SON BMP's (using the colour picker tool in Gimp), together with SUPviewer I was able to change the palette to the correct colours.
I then found I could use DVDSubEdit to change the colour palette of the IFO file.
I kept this file in a safe place so that I could fall back on it, I'm not sure the same colour palette will work with other TVEi recordings, I will test this some time in the future.
So eventually I wrote a small procedure on how to do this, so that I would not forget the whole thing, as it is quite complicated.

[boulder]

My complicated DVB subtitles conversion to DVD routine starting from an MPEG2 recording that has embedded DVB coloured subtitles

1) Cut away the commercials and/or the padding from the file with Videoredo TV Suite, save the result to a .TS file, so that the DVB subtitles are preserved (make sure Videoredo TV Suite is configured to preserve those, this is a hidden option).
In case of this TVEi with the squashed image, you can choose to crop the image :
In this case, choose options : 720x576, aspect ratio 16:9, encoding mode : Double pass, cropping and resizing : Letterbox to Widescreen, do not check the "maintain aspect ratio" checkbox.

2) Demultiplex the file into video and audio streams (you can do this with Videoredo or TSDoctor). You only need to save the Audio and video part.

3) Open the converted .TS file with ConvertXtoDVD, choose the template without the menus and choose the graphical subtitle in case you have both embedded DVB subtitles and teletext subtitles in your .TS file.
The graphical one has "es" as a description (elementary stream).
If you really want to be sure that you get the graphical one and you have both in your .TS file, you can use TSDoctor to Export it to a new file, and don't enable the teletext subtitles, then save this exported file once more in Videoredo, as otherwise the file seems to still have a reference to the teletext data, although it has already been removed from it.

Remember that we are only using ConvertXtoDVD to get a proper .SUP file
The colours (palette) that it uses for this file however are wrong.

4) The colour palette is stored in the VTS_01.IFO file, so if you have a correct palette from a previous film you converted you should be able to use the colours from that previous one, as soon as you have such a correct file, save it in a safe location and rename it so it tells what station it was for (eg. TVE_COLOURS.IFO).

If it is the first time you do it for this channel, you will need to get the correct colours.
In order to do that, first demux the .TS file with ProjectX, in the presettings, make sure to use the SON file as this will produce a BMP file per subtitle.
You can then use Gimp, its loupe to zoom in and its colour picker tool to get the RGB colour value of the 4 parts of a subtitle (background, font, border, shading).
Browse through your subtitles to get the ones with the different colours (some will be magenta, others cyan, others yellow, etc.)
You also have to use DVDSubedit to edit the subtitles directly within the VOB files that ConvertXtoDVD created.
Colour by colour (there's only 16 in the palette, and not all will be used) you need to match the colours with the RGB values from the BMP's you got with ProjectX.
After that, the colours from the subtitles should look roughly the same as the BMP's you got from ProjectX.
Once you are ready, choose to save the changes, and as a result the VTS_01.IFO file of the DVD that ConvertXtoDVD produced will be updated with the new palette.
You should now copy this file, rename it to eg. COLOURS_TVE.IFO, and save it in a location you will find again next time.

5) Use PGCDemux to process the VOB files that ConvertXtoDVD created, and only check the option to demux the subpicture streams, because that is where the subtitles are stored.
The result will be the SUP file ConvertXtoDVD created, that is the subtitles, but not the palette itself.

6) Now start Ifoedit, and create a new compilation (DVD Author menu, author new DVD), use the M2V file (demuxed video), the MPA file (demuxed audido) and the SUP file we extracted with PGCDemux.
At the top use the name for the DVD you would like to use, also change the language for the audio and subtitles to the correct one (Spanish in this case).
Press the OK button, and Ifoedit will now produce the resulting DVD.
There will be no recompression, so the image quality will not be degraded...

7) After Ifoedit had finished, we will copy the palette information of our TVE_COLOURS.IFO file to the VTS_01.IFO file in the output folder.
In order to do this, we first click the Open button to add the TVE_COLOURS.IFO file.
Then you click on the VTS_PGCITI, and a + will appear, click a level below it.
Then in the "Subtitle colour" menu, "Copy colours from this PGC".
Then click on the VTS_01.IFO file, and open the VTS_PGCITI, then click on the "Subtitle colour" menu, choose "Paste colours into this PGC".
Then click the save button, which will update the VTS_01.IFO file with the correct palette, and you can create the BUP file as well.

8) You can use Media Player Classic to check if the resultant DVD folder is correct.
You will need to go to the Manage window, to enable the subtitles.
They should be there and in the right colour.
The image should be 16:9, and unsquashed.

9) If everything is OK, you can burn the folder to a DVD with eg. PowerISO

The result looks quite well I think, I still need to test it on that media player that gave the stuttering video when ConvertXtoDVD converted it :

[boulder]

My next step will be to take another recording from TVEi and see if the procedure works with this recording as well.
In other words, will the palette be the same or not ?
I assume the rest of the procedure will work, and in the worst case scenario the order of the colours will be different, but they will probably be the same colours.
I also want to change the timings of the subtitles, as I find they come about 1/2 second too late.
I assume that I should do that with DVDSubedit.

Then I will try doing the same, but starting with teletext subtitles, and again I would like to keep the colours as much as possible.
I think the text based procedure will be easier, but it is nice to know that it can be done with DVB subtitles, even though it is quite a hassle.

[Budman1]

Boulder
Sorry was trying so many things I lost track of method. I do not receive TS streams so I downloaded a capture stream and used a slightly shorter method to extract SUP, SUP/IDX, SRT and SSA all in one swoop using DVDSupTools15 kit. I loaded all into ConvertXtoDVD and they all loaded at once.


The output, in order looked like this but colors were adjustable excep sup/idx:


SRT (I changed it from White text to show changeable)


Sup/IDX (I actually changed this color but was trying for light gray.)


SSA (I put background behind and cghanged color just to see if Possible)

Bottom line is as I said ConvertXtoDVD is supposed to send me Version 5.0 next week and they promised it is supposed to be 100% SSA compatible so size, position, color , etc should all be customizable with SSA and the procedure should be a lot shorter and more satifying. I'll let you know when I receive it. I just hope they keep their promise and deliver it as they said.
Thanks
Budman1

[boulder]

I really do not see where your method is simpler or better.
When I look at your result (the middle screenshot) I see subtitles that do not have the right colours.
That means you have lost your palette information.
If you want to include the right colours you will get very close to my method again.
Look at this screenshot, it includes multiple colours, with each speaker having a different colour.


This is the default way DVB and Teletext subtitles work.

Also, the moment you use DVDSUPDecode you already need a DVD, so at that point you have used ConvertXtoDVD or another tool to do the conversion from DVB subtitles to DVD subtitles.
With my method I have also corrected the aspect ratio and changed the timing of the subtitles.

I am convinced that the moment you make a whole procedure like I did, it will not be less complicated.
That is, unless ConvertXtoDVD does the whole thing in one go, but then version 5.0 is not out yet, and it remains to be seen whether the result will not be a DVD that stutters on my standalone media player, which is one of the reasons I did not simply use ConvertXToDVD.

[TohM]

Hello Boulder,

You seem to be prepared to go through a very long and complicated process...

I would be quite satisfied to extract any image subtitles, even without much editing afterwards. The German/French station Arte often provides German and French subtitles, but unfortunately only part of them is in Teletext format, which can be extracted as SRT (e.g. by TS-Doctor) quite easily. For the image type I need to use ProjectX.

Unfortunately, so far ProjecX is refusing to demux any subtitle streams altogether, although I can see them in the PID list; I always get a "Stream omitted" message in the log file.

Probably I am missing some elementary setting somewhere. Could you provide a screenshot of your subtitle settings? That would be great!

TohM

[boulder]

Hello Boulder,

You seem to be prepared to go through a very long and complicated process...

Only if necessary, of course.
It is not like I want it to be long and complicated, I just wish it to be close to the original.
I have not continued with investigating yet, as my TV broke down, and I am in the process of choosing a model.

I would be quite satisfied to extract any image subtitles, even without much editing afterwards. The German/French station Arte often provides German and French subtitles, but unfortunately only part of them is in Teletext format, which can be extracted as SRT (e.g. by TS-Doctor) quite easily. For the image type I need to use ProjectX.

Unfortunately, so far ProjecX is refusing to demux any subtitle streams altogether, although I can see them in the PID list; I always get a "Stream omitted" message in the log file.

Probably I am missing some elementary setting somewhere. Could you provide a screenshot of your subtitle settings? That would be great!

TohM

I might try it myself, though it would be good to know which Arte version you are watching.
I have Arte Belgique on cable here, which is unencrypted, and there are Arte German and French versions on satellite (Hotbird and Astra1), and Arte HD versions (a French one in 1080i and a German one in 720p).
So which one did you try ?
I can then see if it works for me or not.

[boulder]

Just tried it with several Arte stations, and found the following :

Even though some versions list as much as 6 different subtitle versions (French or German, teletext or DVB), in lots of cases the subtitles were not there, not even in the original broadcast, when watching on my Dreambox.
I could very well imagine ProjectX discovering the 'announcement' of subtitles, then not finding it in the stream, therefore ignoring it.
So before you conclude something is wrong, first try playing back the .TS file on your normal receiver, and see if you can get the subtitles to show over there.
Finally, with the French version of Arte HD I could extract subtitles with ProjectX.
Here's 2 important settings screens, I don't think the rest is that important :

I do not think you need to extract everything, but the subpicture would contain the subtitles, so at least enable that one.

[boulder]

Just a quick update, I tried with a different TVEi recording, and although the palette colours are correct, the order in which they appear in the palette is not the same, so that means for each recording you would have to adapt the colours, which is a bit cumbersome.
The DVD did play correctly in the stand alone mediaplayer.