Trouble with darkness and color (Funai and Sony recorders)

[DaisukeJigen]

Hi all, long-time lurker, first-time poster. I'm going crazy trying to figure this out and I'm hoping some experts here might be able to shed some light.

I'll try to keep this short. I have an old Sony unit - RDR-GX315. Not very good, image is too bright, but I just used it casually. Then recently I bought a Diamond VC500 USB device to capture to my PC. It wasn't great either (macroblocking, trouble adjusting brightness). I read through a bunch of stuff about all the heavy-duty restoration work you can do with better PC equipment/software, but I don't really have the time or resources right now, so I decided at present to look for something that would simply capture the same as the VHS source, no better, no worse. I finally decided to get a Toshiba DR430 (Funai), basically the only recorder still widely available. After doing a few burns and I think I'm going to return it. Basically:

DR430/Funai: Way too dark. Details are lost, colors dingy/muted
GX315: Too bright, but colors are better than Funai

I read on an old thread that the GX315 is set up for IRE=0 sources, and so NTSC VHS / IRE=7.5 source would mean lighter/washed out look. Is there anything I can do to correct the IRE in between recorder and VCR? Also, that perhaps explains the overly bright GX315, but why is the Toshiba/Funai so dark and dreary?

Any thoughts or suggestions are very much appreciated.

[jjeff]

It would help if you indicated in your profile where you live, if N. America then you need a IRE 7.5 DVDR which should be most all DVDRs sold in N. America except for a few very old Panasonics and maybe some other brands(not sure about your Sony).
Your Toshiba/Funai should be 7.5 IRE if you live and purchased it in N. America but even that doesn't tell the whole story.
I've tried a couple Philips/Magnavox Funai DVDRs and noticed the problem of crushed blacks. Meaning blacks are too black(lose all definition) and whites are too white(again lose definition). I don't think it's so much a IRE problem but something else that some users don't seem to encounter but others like I do.
I'm a big fan of Panasonic DVDRs, if you could find a used or refurbished '03-06 model I think you'd be satisfied with the black level, of course Pioneer, many Sonys or even the Toshiba made Toshibas(pre '06) would also work quite well.

[jman98]

I'm not disputing the equipment may be playing a role here, but we've had posts recently on the subject and you do need to understand that VHS tape is actually a pretty terrible quality media source. One of our most technically adept members posted not too long ago in a thread and stated that he had never seen a video tape capture that didn't need plenty of work done on it to fix color problems and other issues. I've been doing some video tape captures of material never released to DVD and I'm using some good quality equipment and I've basically given up on ever making it look perfect. My attempts to fix some of the issues I've seen using AviSynth have just made things worse and I've decided to just live with getting it as good as I can but still showing some flaws.

[DaisukeJigen]

@jjeff


Ah of course, sorry, yes I'm in North America. I typed 'GX315' into the search here and there are several posts in which a member confirms that it's built for IRE=0 sources, not sure why since it's a NA model. Based on what I read and assuming this is true, if I get a video proc amp and turn it to IRE=0, it should correct the brightness, no? Or will it make it too dark? Thanks for confirming the crushed blacks on the Funai, I thought maybe it was just me. The Amazon page have over 100 reviews and no one says anything about brightness or excess contrast or anything. If there's no way of adjusting it and it's simply the way the hardware records it, I'm just going to return it to Amazon. I'll look into the Panasonics, I see them mentioned a lot. In addition to the black levels, they reproduce colors pretty well? (or perhaps the inaccurate colors in my Funai/Sony recordings are simply caused by the black level issues)

@jman98

Thanks for the advice, that's about my philosophy right now - live with the flaws. I'm not seeking perfection, only to get out what I put in, so to speak. But if there's a noticeable degrade in quality, which is what I've been getting (Funai darkness, Sony brightness), I feel like I'm wasting my time. If I hook my VHS directly into my TV, the quality is still a VHS tape recorded x number of times, but the colors and brightness are like they're supposed to be. I just want the colors and brightness to match the original - tears, noise, whatever else I'll live with. Especially for the not so important tapes (random stuff taped from TV, etc). The really treasured stuff I'll hold on to of course and hopefully devise a better solution later, but as you say actually improving on the original sounds like an uphill battle to put it mildly.

[jjeff]

Yes a proc amp would correct your Sony issues but I'm not sure how it would work with your Toshiba.
I should note that using line inputs on the Funai recorders I tried the black level was OK I only noticed the problem using the built in digital tuner(which was my main purpose for using them) so needless to say they didn't work for my needs.
I also forgot to mention other than the pre '03 Panasonics, the international Panasonics(like EH-59,67,68,69) are also not meant for N. American +7.5 IRE use and would also require a proc amp or if recording from another DVD player(like I use my EH-59 for) a player with a DARKER output setting. I've not seen a proc amp with IRE markers on the dial, the ones I've used just have + and - adjustments for brightness and contrast and you just kind of have to eyeball things. If you have a SMPTE or calibration tape it would be quite easy, otherwise you just kind of have to go by what looks best to you.

As Jman98 said many times a bad VHS source can be the problem for incorrect black levels but assuming they look fine hooking your VCR directly to your TV then your DVDRs are causing your problems.
A proc amp between your VCR and DVDR is a good idea for any VHS conversion project, I've seen tapes that look not only to light but too dark as well. They seemed to look OK years ago with tube TVs but todays flat panel TVs are very unforgiving.

If it were me I'd check craigslist.org and search for "Panasonic DVD recorders". I regularly see HDD less models selling for <$50. Unless you have a proc amp I'd avoid the pre '03 or international(quite rare) models, and yes every Panasonic I've used are very true to the original colors, brightness and contrast.

Here is a link to the various N. American Panasonics models and I've noted which ones aren't calibrated for N. American black level.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1134909/panasonic-dvd-recorder-us-models-years-produced-and-features

[orsetto]

I would agree with the other replies: get a proc amp to fine tune the contrast on the Sony inputs, or exchange the Toshiba for another recorder (only other choice would likely be a near-identical Magnavox). The Funai-sourced recorders have variously been reported as having the "black crush" issue mentioned by jjeff, but the problem seems mostly confined to the tuner and doesn't show up during line input recordings. It is possible your Toshiba is slightly defective, and trading it for the Magnavox version may be just enough difference to not have the issue.

If possible, I'd also suggest trying as many different VCRs as you can lay hands on: ask around to friends, family and co-workers if they will let you borrow an unused VCR. I've been doing VHS to DVD dubs for six years, using all sorts of hardware, but only recently became aware of an odd interaction that occurs between certain VCRs with certain tapes connected to certain DVD recorders and certain televisions. When the combination of gear is just right (just wrong?), during playback of some old TV recordings I will notice an odd video issue that looks kind of like the MacroVision protection on Hollywood rental tapes. The picture keeps varying in brightness, from too dark to too light, unpredictably (always in the same places but not in every scene on the tapes). In some cases the tape playback gets "stuck" at the dark muddy symptom, which would be similar to what you see on your Toshiba. Eventually I traced this oddity back to a couple different otherwise-perfect VCRs: if I switched the tape into a different brand of VCR, the symptoms would vanish and the tape would play and dub normally. I never had to deal with this at all when I had CRT Trinitron TVs, but since "upgrading" to Samsiung and Sony LCD TVs I'm catching various incompatibilities between some older analog recordings and modern televisions, that seem to be "fixed" if the right VCR is used for playback.

In other words, the specific combination of VCR and DVD encoder built into the Toshiba may just be incompatible with the tapes you're trying to dub when displayed on your particular TV. If you borrow any other brand of VCR (like Panasonic., JVC, Mitsubishi, Sharp or RCA) and connect it to the line inputs of the Toshiba, you may see an improvement with a brighter more normal picture. Its a long shot, but worth a try if you can borrow one or two VCRs without a hassle.

[DaisukeJigen]

Thanks again for the info. The thing you guys mentioned about the Funai tuner being a source of the problem is strange, because this Toshiba DR430 Funai is tunerless. It's just a straight composite line-in from my VCR, which is actually also a Toshiba. Then a component line out to Sony LCD. I tested the Funai copies on two monitors, the TV & my computer flat screen, both have the darkness problem. I'm going to try some more combinations, switching cables and, if possible, devices. Used to be quite a few VCRs to run some comparisons but it seems like they're all going as of late. Recently an old Panasonic just stopped powering on :\

And here I thought a stand-along recorder would be more straightforward than PC capturing haha

[orsetto]

The thing you guys mentioned about the Funai tuner being a source of the problem is strange, because this Toshiba DR430 Funai is tunerless.

Thats why we mentioned the problem reports being confined to the tuner (in the models that have one). Since your model is tunerless, there's even less chance of "IRE" being a problem: you've got a real strange issue here.

It's just a straight composite line-in from my VCR, which is actually also a Toshiba.

Toshiba made its own distinct VCRs: all their VCRs predate their agreement to have Funai OEM all their stuff and just slap a Toshiba nameplate on it. The "muddyness" issues I've experienced mostly happened with Panasonic and Sony VCRs, one of the alternate VCRs I tried was a borrowed Toshiba M781 and it did not have that issue. Might just be the entire overall Funai DVD/VCR design does not suit your tapes. Trouble is, there's no other choice in new products: they're all gone. Unless you want to go for second-hand gear, you're a bit stuck.

And here I thought a stand-along recorder would be more straightforward than PC capturing haha

It is more straightforward, and MUCH easier/more efficient if your end goal is in fact a DVD (the PC can make some substantial improvements, but much of it is lost when you convert the PC AVI files to DVD-video format). Your biggest problem is that DVD recorders have vanished off the face of the earth: when there were more choices, you could just switch to another brand if you had issues. Now, those options are gone. For the sake of back history, most of us that prefer the DVD recorder solution are using a separate VCR connected to the "final" higher-end DVD/HDD models made between 2006-2008 by Pioneer, Sony, Panasonic and Toshiba (before Toshiba stopped making its own gear). These recorders sold for roughly $450 and had reached the point where bugs like IRE discrepancies were fixed or a settings menu would allow adjustments.

Unfortunately the price tag killed the popularity of those older, better recorders and they were pulled from US stores by the end of 2006 (in Canada around 2009). The current discount DVD-only and DVD/VHS combo units are a far cry from those "classic" DVD/HDD recorders: they work, but not that well, and not for everyone.

[DaisukeJigen]

Toshiba made its own distinct VCRs: all their VCRs predate their agreement to have Funai OEM all their stuff and just slap a Toshiba nameplate on it.

Yea, you can really tell. The Toshiba VCR isn't fancy, but it certainly feels sturdier and more solid than the DVDR.

The current discount DVD-only and DVD/VHS combo units are a far cry from those "classic" DVD/HDD recorders: they work, but not that well, and not for everyone.

It seems I missed the 'classic' period in the middle with my clunky early model that might be good if not for some glitches (Sony) and one of the present day cheapos (Funai) It's a shame the market went belly-up as you described

Today I messed around a bit with the Funai and my findings are pretty much the same. I changed composite cables, ran them into the front of the Funai instead of the back, and swapped the component cable to TV with composite. I also recorded 1 hour instead of 2 hours. I played this in several different DVD players. I also opened up Sony & Funai discs on my computer with VHS on the TV and played all 3 at the same time. In every arrangement I find:

Funai: Perhaps black not as severe as before, but colors are off. Bright colors, warm tones like skin, these all have a dingy/dark look to them.
Sony: Colors are better, but still washed out.
Original VHS: Bright and warm colors are vibrant yet there is also good contrast. (obviously normal noise/tears as well)

I posted about this on another site (AVSForum) and someone replied informing me of a dark level adjustor on the Sony. The thing is, it only changes the IRE for line 1 out. However, I tried this set-up and got an interesting result:

VCR composite out-> Sony line-in 1 -> Sony line-out 1 composite -> TV

Then I went to a dark scene on my VHS tape, paused it, and switched the dark level on the Sony. Guess what? When dark level is ON, I get the bright/washed out look - same as the Sony captures. When dark level is OFF, it looks good! Just like VCR straight to TV.

I had a crazy idea of feeding the Sony line-out 1 into Sony line-in 2 and trying to capture from line-in 2 input, but I guess it would just switch it back to IRE 0 again. Ugh why didn't they include a switch like that for line-in!

[oldfart13]

One nice thing about the later Pioneer models like the DVR-640h-s and DVR-650h-s are all the onboard video adjustments you can make to compensate for brightness and darkness on videotape. I do wish that other recorders had included similar adjustments...