Capturing To AVI vs MPEG1 vs MPEG2

[djnibler]

Hi all, I posted a similar question to the conversion board because this has a little to do with both conversion and capturing, but have not yet received a response so I figured I'd post it here as well...

I have an ATI TV Wonder PCI card, and have had great success in following the ATI Capturing guide on this site, then burning to VCD with Nero. VCD is great, but I would like to be able to capture to SVCD (MPEG2 right?) and then convert it to MPEG1 as well, so I can have both SVCD and VCD from the same copy.

What I want to capture is only 30-40 minutes long. I'm running a P3 766. Should I capture in AVI, then convert to VCD and SVCD? Do you think my setup is powerful enough to capture high quality AVI? What about capturing to MPEG2, then converting to MPEG1? The freeware programs don't seem to support MPEG2 (anymore). I see that the bundled software for the ATI card supports MPEG2 capturing... but would it be SVCD compliant?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Jeff

[FiEND]

my experience with mpeg2 (and mpeg1) captures with ATI MMC is non existant. mpeg2 files wont play in anything and mpeg1 is usually out of sync so i dont really bother.

best is to capture in AVI, huffyuv with virtualdub and then convert with TMPGEnc. the next problem is whether your system will allow higher than XXX*240 resolution. if it does, great. if not, you will have to use iuvcr from www.iulabs.com to do the capturing for svcd.

cature for svcd and encode to mpeg2 or shrink to mpeg1. your system should do it fine, my celery 600 can do it easily.

[KingJohn]

If your system cannot cope with those codec's capture to a DivX AVI.

Capture to mpeg, and you may end up with bad frames, its easier to fix problem files in AVI's than Mpeg1/2 files.

[condone]

it is not recommended on capturing straight to DivX. DivX is highly system demanding and it can easily get fucked while capturing (same with any CoDec though, but for whatever reason, MPEG 1 and 2 are more stable). best idea is to capture straight into uncompressed AVI but since that takes a lot of space, use the lossless, HuffYUV CoDec, great alternative.

[ggtronic]

with AiW radeon , i capture in mpeg2 iframe only
480x480 , and anything over 8mb/sec is good quality

file easy to monipulate and convert . good result with
Svcd transfer or downsize to vcd

[kinneera]

If your system cannot cope with those codec's capture to a DivX AVI.

If your system can't handle realtime MPEG1 or MPEG2, you definitely do not want to attempt realtime Divx.

[vhelp]

djnibler,

...yeah, 4get capturing TO divX. too cpu %%%, even on mine, though
works sparingly.

QUESTIONS:
----------
* what is your source(S) ??? (dvd/vhs/satalete etc)

PROBLEMS/PROS/CONS:
-------------------
* divX too cpu 'tensive
* huffy avi (for your system spec) is too slow for 720x480 captures

RECOMMENDATIONS:
----------------
* to not capture w/ 352x240 res.
* to capture via Huffy avi w/ 352x480 ..will give ya best quality for
an later vcd, or better yet, svcd encode.
* capturing from VHS source and encoding to vcd is best, vs. svcd from
VHS source - wont be able to tell the difference, unless your VHS source
is GIGO.

SOLUTIONS:
----------
* use huffy codec via avi_io or vdub.


-vhelp

[KingJohn]

??

So what are you all using Spectrum's Atari's ?

I dont have a very powerfull machine (P4 1.6) but there is no problem capturing DivX files at all.

[kinneera]

By a lot of people's standards, a 1.6 P4 is still plenty powerful.

But the real point is that Divx (MPEG4) requires even more software processing than MPEG1 or MPEG2, so if you can't realtime capture to those formats, then you sure as heck shouldn't be trying to realtime capture to Divx.

[vhelp]

even djnibler, and others. . .
.
.
.
and I'm no expert, but I've ben playing around with divX 3x up to 5 now,
since today. But, I'm not too happy wiht it. Ben messing w/ a bunch of
tests clips etc., raning from captured sources from my ATI-TV Wonder
(ATW) to my new DV cam to DVD source materials (rip and capped to DV cam)

I've have to adjust to 6000 on the divX 3 through 5, but then again, I'm
new this divX (am just farting around with it) and so, I'm prob. not using
the right settings, etc. But from what I've done and come up with so
far, I'd MUCH rather stick to VCD/SVCD any day.

divX is basically for PC viewing anyways. So, it's good in that area
(but not for me, per my experience)

On another note, I've re-installed my AWT card along with my DV's firecard,
...am now trying out another firewire card, by Pyro
I've ben able to run BOTH w/ out any problems so far. And, I like it well.
What can I say, I miss my ATW, and I guess I can have BOTH worlds (that
being DV and AVI) The only downside to having these two cards is the
although my firewire installed w/ NO IRQ problems (is on it's own, heah)
my ATW is sharing an IRQ with my modem.
But, luck would have it (and has) that it works w/ NO problems. I've just
done a capture, while surfing, and using my ATW card, with NO lockups.
So, it's a pretty good install. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!! he, he...

On to what I've noticed (or found out) in my experinece so far.
Even on my fast machine, I don't recommend capping via straight to divX.
I've tried w/ mixed results.
Best to just cap to avi via huffy and THEN to a "save AVI using the
divX as your codec under "Compression". You'll get better results that way.

On another note again, who ever said that DV doesn't work with VDub, well,
I don't know. It works for me, ...ben working since day one (3 weeks ago)
since my endeaver.
I don't capture with my DV cam, I just load in my DV avi file and that's
it. However, no sound, but I have that licked as well, using a trick to
import, but I'm sure you's all know how to get sound in vdub from your DV
avi source. Anyways, as far as color goes, well, it's up and down.
Quality on most of my DV caps are very good. Color HAS to adjusted all
the time, unless I'm missing something. Ok, averagely, I have to ajust
color, but I've settled on a compromise. Anyways. . .

I guess I'm becoming a master on DV stuff (well, something sort of)

Back to DV, oops, I mean divX. he, he....
You best bet to capture to AVI via huffy, and THEN, as I've said earlier,
encode to divX. You shouldn't have any problems then. That's based on
MY experience.


-vhelp

[djnibler]

Wow, thanks everyone for your reply!!! I didn't get any replies in the first day or two of this post so I haven't been checking it.

I've tried Virtual dub but I get an error 418 "Unsupported Video Format" when I attempt to select any resolutions above X x 240. Only the first two work. I'm thinking it's an issue with Vdub and Windows XP as I have seen similar posts on the forum with XP users experiencing the same error. No one replied to those posts with a solution either... and I have e-mailed v-dub with no response yet (but I'll be patient).

I guess I need an app that can reliably capture AVI at 480x480 on Windows XP. Does anyone know of one? I've tried installing several codecs including the one from pegasus, and the huffy... still get the error in V-dub.

Thanks so much for all of your replies, and for any additional information in capturing at 480x480 in XP!

Jeff

[djnibler]

FiEND: Thanks for the info on iuvcr. According to their site, XP needs something special. I will give it a shot. Probably try to capture directly from the TV tuner to AVI, then convert to mpg2/svcd format via tmpg or Nero. The trick for me is going to be getting all the settings in iuvcr correct for best quality and compatability.

Jeff

[KingJohn]

Ok, what I was saying is that if you capture to uncompressed AVI, then chances are you will drop more frames than what you will capture, this is down to the hard drive not keeping up etc, if that person does not have a very powerful machine ! But on the same (Slow) machine the person who cannot capture uncompressed AVI, will be able to capture to divX with no problems.

The machines processor would be able to handle this, where the hard drive might not.

Its nice to be able to capture to Mpeg 1/2 with hardware, but from what I see from everyone this has problems. If there are dropped frames, then most burning software will complain, leaving you to edit the capture again.

I don't have a very good capture card, its a WinTv 2000 basic, but can use NanoDVR to capture direct to mepeg1.But when it comes to editing/fixing problems, there is a lot more good software available for AVI than mpeg 1/2

What works well for one person, does not mean anything. The next person may do it a completely different way to get good results. Dismissing a method, because you have had bad results gives the impression that its no good for anyone.

Try it and see, if it works for you great.

[djnibler]

Alright, I downloaded iuVCR and with a bit of tweaking, was able to get it to work. Other then the ATI bundled software, this app is the only app I have gotten to work with XP. I have not heard of anyone being able to capture higher then whatever x 240 in XP with the ATI cards.

I'm running a P3766 with a UDMA66 hard drive or two. With iuVCR, I can capture 780x480 to uncompressed AVI with zero dropped frames, and very, VERY little CPU utilization. Of course, the files are quite large (15 seconds = 280mb). I tried a few of the avi compression codecs with mixed results. The Huffy is nice, but doesn't compress it much. I had the best luck with mjpg from PIC. Great compression, and pretty high quality. 15 seconds of video with that got me about 65 megs or so. I encoded the resulting AVI file to mpeg2 with tmpgen and also gave Nero's encoder a try. tmpgen seemed to create better quality on the encoding then Nero, but I need to run some more tests to confirm. Both SVCDs played in my Pioneer DVD player and PC just fine.

I am not able to get the sound to work yet with iuVCR.... still need to test some more. After I'm done, and get a format down that I'm happy with, I'm hoping to write a How-To guide to publish on this site for SVCD capturing on Windows XP with an ATI card.

So many people on this forum bash DivX that I haven't tried it, though a friend of mine told me he downloaded Shrek on DivX format and said the quality was amazing. What's the dig on DivX?

Jeff

[KingJohn]

So many people on this forum bash DivX that I haven't tried it, though a friend of mine told me he downloaded Shrek on DivX format and said the quality was amazing. What's the dig on DivX?
Jeff

Without DivX there would not have been any movies to download, ok a few are in VCD mpeg now but each disk is 800Mb where as a whole movie DVD DivX rip is less than 700Mb "High Quality"

The problem is, if you convert a high quality source like a DVD rip, then the DivX will also be high quality, "Almost" as good as the source.

But use compression of any type on a bad source and it just gets worse. Nothing wrong with Divx as a means of compression, its great.

And capturing to avoid frame drop, or to save space, or even to make available to others the DivX codec is in...

Its hard work on a less powerful machine, I started with a Pentium 100, what a waste of time that was... A P2 improved things vastly, and so did the P3 I had, now with a P4 its a dream come true

Start saving, you really need to upgrade and make life easier on your self (and on your machine)

[djnibler]

Interesting..... my primary purpose for getting into this has been to capture an entire series of my favorite 30 minute TV show and burn them to VCDs and SVCDs (the show is going off the air). This means DivX isn't really an option for me... but if I were to be doing movies for viewing on my PC, I suppose it would be a VERY viable option.

Thanks for the reply, again

Jeff

[Bstansbury]

djnibler,

There was an earler post that had a very good suggestion, but I didn't see you try it. I've used it very successfully. Use MMC 7.5 or 7.6 to capture your source in a "Custom" setting. Use MPEG-2 480x480 and set it for "I" frames only at the max bit rate of 15 mbs, and at 100% motion detection. This file will be considerable smaller than any .avi file and I feel the quality is just as good. Once you have the file you can view it in Windows Media Player and also convert it to VCD or SVCD. Now you have what you want, a master file that is high quality, takes up minimum file space, and can be converted via TMPGen to VCD or SVCD.

Isn't this what you wanted,... and you already have all the software.

Hope this helps.

[djnibler]

Bstansbury:
Thanks for your reply. In using MMC, I have never been able to select a higher resolution then ___ X 240. I'm using Windows XP, and I think that's the reason. Virtual Dub doesn't even let me select higher then 240, and if I do, it errors out saying "Unsupported Video Format." iuVCR is the only app that allows me to go higher, and so far, I've not seen a single person that has been able to use XP with resolutions higher then ___ X 240 with any other app.

I also notice that captured AVIs at 760x480 are "borderline" in quality in my book. Using tmpGen to convert those AVIs to 480x480 mpeg2 files is slower then real time, so I doubt I'd be able to match that quality capturing to real time AVI.

My guess is that you are running something other then XP and that's why you're able to get higher then ___ X 240 with MMC/whatever. If you are using XP, or even 2000, I'd be very interested to find out what codecs etc you have installed that are allowing you to capture higher, as I am planning on writing a How-To Capture With XP and ATI cards. The more info, the better.

Thanks again for your reply!!

-Jeff

[kinneera]

May as well put myself on the record as someone who successfully captures at 480x480 and 720x480 using VirtualDub in WinXP using an AIW 128.

[djnibler]

kinneera, what version of VirtualDub are you using? Are you capturing to AVI, MPEG1/2? If AVI, what Codec are you using?

Jeff

[kinneera]

Currently using version 1.4.8, but had no problems with 1.4.5 either. I capture to Huffyuv compressed AVI.

[djnibler]

Bizarre. I have that version of vDub, XP, the ATI card, and Huffy, but any time I try to select anything above ___ X 24, VirtualDub gives "Error 418: Unsupported Video Format." Strange stuff. *shrug*

Jeff

[vhelp]

djnibler,

try this, in AVI_IO in this order:
1 * VideoSettings/Format/ImageFormat: 24 bit RGB, click (OK)
2 * File/CaptureSettings/CustomFrameSize: [x]704x480, click (OK)
3 * VideoSettings/Compression: huffy, click (OK)

As for line 2, 352x480 might work for ya, case you drop frames using
the 704x480 res. ...this is assuming that AVI_IO works for ya as an
alternative to vdub. But, you can do the same steps above, in vdub
but the MENU bar will have different option names.

If you STILL can't get either capture apps to work for ya, then maybe you
need to use the "wrapper".

Hope this answers your question.

-vhelp

[djnibler]

vhelp: Thanks for the info. I have not tried AVI_IO. I will give it a shot tonight when I get home. You mention "the wrapper." I thought wrappers were compression codecs no? IE: vfw = the Video for Windows wrapper, DS = the Direct Show wrapper (I think?)? iuVCR prefixes all of the installed Codecs on my machine with either vfw or ds...... are these the wrappers you are speaking of? If not, where can I obtain them, and what are they (not necc in that order)? Thanks again for the info!!

-Jeff

[Bstansbury]

djnibler,


I think the real problem is that your are using a down level version of MMC that came with your card. Have you ever tried to download a new version from ATI web site.

Your in-ability to select a resolution around 480x480 is because of the MMC version you use. This is passed onto VirtualDub which won't try to use any resoultion that the MMC card won't support. It may also have to do with the version of the WDM driver you have loaded. I suggest you forget all the other suggestions and try and get your system up to date with drivers and ATI software. This will at least bring you up to the point were most of us are and then maybe we can help you more.

You said in one post that your system is a P3 @ 733 MHZ which should be good enough,... You are using Windows 2000, but do you have the latest Direct X 8.1 loaded.

My system is an AMD Duron at 750 MHZ with MMC 7.5 ( hanen't had time to convert to 7.6), and I'm running windows ME. My card is an ATI All in Wonder Radeon 32 MB AGP. Check the ATI web site and see what the latest drives and MMC they support for your card.

Bud

[djnibler]

Bud, vHelp and Kineera:

I am using XP.

Alright, here is the deal. My card is not an AllInWonder. It is a TV Wonder standard edition. I was under the impression that as far as capturing goes, there was no difference between the AIW and the TVW cards. Apparantly there was. I DID download the latest WDM drivers and MMC version the very first time I installed my card, however, I assumed that since I did this, the MMC was 7.5 or 7.6 (this was only a few days ago). Apparantly, 7.6 doesn't work with my card. ATI says 7.1 is all that supports the TV Wonder. Isn't that nice! I wish I would have known that PRIOR to buying it. If you look at the stats on the cards on ATI's site, all the capture stuff is the same. I installed MMC 7.6 just to see if it would work with my card anyway. It installed, though I'm assuming it doesn't work since there is no app for viewing/recording TV (just a VCD player, File Player, CD player, and Library tool). I'm very disappointed.

I tried Avi_Io as suggested, but it did not work. I can select higher then __ X 240, but it just doesn't record. When I hit record, it instantly stops. Vdub just errors when I try to select higher resolutions.

Perhaps I should return this thing, and spend the extra money for an All In Wonder. I just don't understand why the TV Wonder would not work with MMC 7.6 or 7.5. If I can fix a couple of small problems with iuVCR, I may just run that route instead. It's been the only thing that's worked so far.

Alright, thanks again everyone for their help!

Jeff

[Bstansbury]

djnibler,

If you still have time to take the card back,... do it. Even the All in Wonder Radeon AGP card I just go in January is out of date as ATI has introduced the 8500 and 7500 cards. There is significant difference in these cards, and ATI is not know for great support. They will drop any future support of the TV Wonder card. If they now say that it will only work with MMC 7.1, I have seen that others have made this work but it does not support very many resolutions,... because of its hardware and software performance.

Hope you have good luck.

[djnibler]

Bud, thanks so much for your help with this. I will see about exchanging the card for a newer one. Try to save a buck and look what happens :)

Jeff

[Gameshow Host]

Someonementioned capturing in DIVX format. DIVX is highly compressed, and shouldonly be used when you're going to stream or upload the file over the Web. If you're capturing video for homeuse, stick to avi, as you don't want to lose quality before you encode it to mpeg2.

[KingJohn]

Someonementioned capturing in DIVX format. DIVX is highly compressed, and shouldonly be used when you're going to stream or upload the file over the Web. If you're capturing video for homeuse, stick to avi, as you don't want to lose quality before you encode it to mpeg2.

Show me a uncompressed AVI and Ill show you a Divx of equal quality, did you know they use compression on DVD's ?