Panasonic AG-5710 "smearing" and composite video noise

[Milesdrifter]

hey to all, I have spent the past week reading alot of the posts on here about the VCR debate, mostly the JVC vs Panasonic. I have a 5710 that when I bought it had extreme ghosts. I thought that they were from the head needing cleaning(which it did BAD) so I cleaned it and they went away a good bit. They wear still there though, what I mean is during motion, like someone running accross the screen it would seem as though they had ghosting around them, like the processing couldnt keep up, very similar to what I remember of analog TV ghosting issues. I just recapped the supply and the display board. I have spent the past 3 days injoying about the cleanest picture I have seen from this VCR for the 4 years I have owned it. I have always noticed that when there is more than minimal motion from someones face on the screen their skin "smears" nothing that isnt immediatly forgotten about just from having superb playback of VHS, but there, nevertheless. I now have a sneeking suspicion that the "ghosting" may be an extension of the smearing effect. I have an old ADC V-200x going into my VPS-1 comb filter. I ran this combo because I could run S-video to my Sony monitor and not have to see the checkerboard artifacts that I hate. I just got done recapping the ADC tonight and was watching Jurassic Park. I thought to see what the processor looked like going straight to the TV, but I got horrible diagonal lines, like a bad coax TV cable(that bad) this was with the tape playing or not, with a black screen. 20 minutes later I found this: It was the VCR. I connected the composite directly to the TV and the noise was still there. The processor was clean. I connected the S-video from the AG-5710, and it was CLEAN, no noise. I then connected the VCR composite to my Crystal Vision VPS-1, WTF - NO NOISE? I then connected the processor back in the chain between the VCR and VPS-1 - NO NOISE. Tommorrow I will try a different TV connected straight to the VCR but I have a weird feeling that the composite has a problem now in this VCR. I wanted to recap the TBC while I had it apart about a week ago, but didnt know if I had the caps on hand to do so. I have the service manual to the AG-1980, I figure if I overlook the cable tuner I should be fine. I do remember though, the supply when tested before I placed it back in the VCR read fine on all the voltages except in the manual for the 1980 the one Vout stated 38 volts, I only read 33 from this one. I replaced it anyway thinking that the voltage difference may have come from the fat that there is no ntuner in this version VCR. I replaced 52 caps in that ADC processor and apologize for the errors in my type, I have a electrical tape band-aid wrapped around my left index, I seem to have a utility knife scar on one hand or both for each piece of equipment I have fixed in my time. Thanks for the long read and any help anyone could give, and big thanks to Lord Smurf, I have learned alot from his posts over the past few weeks, Milesdrifter

[lordsmurf]

Thanks.

Yes, bad capacitors on the boards have all been aging (drying, mostly) in the past year or two. This has gotten a lot of discussion in the digitalFAQ.com forum this year. (Search for Panasonic AG-1980P.) Getting it repaired is what has to be done. It's nice that you have the skills to do the repair work yourself. I may have to learn that, too.

[orsetto]

The AG1980 and AG5710 are more sensitive to aging caps issues than any other VCR or electronic device I've ever used. I haven't seen these issues at all in the older AG1970s I have stacked to the rafters, nor have I seen such issues occur in JVCs, Mitsubishis, or even Sony BetaMax models dating back 25 years. It is generally true all critical electronics should have crucial sections recapped as they age out, but practically speaking it rarely causes the significant defects one regularly sees in the AG1980/AG5710 twins.

In this past week alone I have had two 1980s and two 5710s fail on me, after working perfectly for the past year. Each is exhibiting different symptoms: one has a brain freeze in the loading system, one is producing spurious dropouts, one has near-total color desaturation, and one has greenish noise patterns. Other than the loading issue, these are not simple repairs: this VCR design has incredibly convoluted electronics with cascading failure interactions (recapping just one obvious board won't necessarily solve all problems). When they start showing video issues, they usually require a total overhaul. It isn't a DIY job for amateurs: unless you're very confident with a soldering iron, hand these VCRs to a pro repair tech. I'll soon be sending one to the service center recommended by LS (JOTS Electronics in Texas). If I like their work, the other three will follow. Note even "simple" breakdowns like the loading system can be a giant pain with the 1980/5710: instead of a simple belt or idler replacement, they need a tiny collar replaced that couples the loading motor shaft to the worm gear. A few years ago you had many local techs familiar with these idiosyncrasies, since the AG1980 was the wedding videographer workhorse, but today finding a competent tech can be difficult. I'd advise anyone buying a used 1980 or 5710 to have it overhauled immediately, as a hedge against the future. I wouldn't want to be seeking service for one of these five years from now.

[Milesdrifter]

Hey, I appreciate the entirely quick response! Super glue on the finger slice worked untill I offered the neighbors downstairs help moving in, but what can ya do? I am surprised my rant was understood, I believe 3 in the morning combined with that excitement ya get when ya get something working then have in go in the toilet had something to do with it! I noticed more "smearing" straight from the S-video out of the VCR, I had it running through the processors the past couple days. I swapped cables, flipped polarity on the plugs, plugged the Panny into a 3-to2 way adaptor, all that, no go. I had read before about some magic the VPS-1 had with clearing up noise, but like I had noted, it was so bad I didn't believe it was that, but it is the only thing that has seemed to work(no noise from composite out) Maybe it was like that all along, and I just never noticed it, at least for the past week or so. This at least gives me a starting place to look for the cause of the trouble, maybe the video connector board hanging vertical in behind them? I got all this stuff for no more than 35$ a pop, the 5710 for 10$ at the flea mart! I will ask: has anyone seen this particular problem before? - composite video from a 5710/1980 giving diagonal noise but the S-video staying clean. I also was going to sign up here to find out if anyone knew if the tire from an AG-1960 would swap out with the tire from the 5710/1980? To lordsmurf, all ya need is a soldering iron and a catalog from Digi-Key or Allied. There is no real skill needed, just patience, but I see why they call it shotgunning, you feel you need one for yourself after redoing all those caps! To orsetto, might you know if the tires from those two would be interchangeable? Also, have you worked on these before or just had them sent to the shop? I still find it a little odd that the 38 volt out only read 33 volt. Thanks for you guys" time, Milesdrifter

[Milesdrifter]

I do know how to say it, I F***ed up I remember that I had the one audio channel plugged into the video input on the front of the TV, I was watching a movie I am highly familiar with the other night and just thought that maybe the audio mix was screwed up on that copy, I was only able to get certain parts audible after switching the VCR to HiFi/linear mix. I then saw that the one channel was plugged into the video( they should have the composite on the other side of the S-video connector so people dont do that) I just pulled out a DVD/VCR combo unit and what did I find? That my 215 pound TV now has a blown composite video, with no way to move it to dig the problem out(I love this TV). BUT, I now find that all that work I invested into these "dinosaurs" wasn't for nothing. That still sucks though.
So, for all your humor I post this, as I run an extension from the back of the TV so I may continue refurbishing the rest of this stuff. I now will ask three questions, one already having been asked: Does anyone know if the idle/traction tire from an AG-1960 would interchange with the AG-5710/1980? they are the same size but I am not sure if the have the same spindle/axle/whatever it is called, or if you have to change out the

[Milesdrifter]

sorry bout that, change out the whole tire assembly, or if the tire will come off its spindle. 2: does anyone have any opinion/knowledge about the ADC video processors like the V-200x or V-300x? 3: Does anyone have any knowledge here on the voltage output levels from an AG-5710/1980 VCR? Thanks again as I go sulk over my blown composite input

[orsetto]

Its been 20 years since I opened up an AG1960, so can't honestly remember if any parts will interchange with the later models. The 1960 seemed to have a different "slimline" design which was not followed up in the thicker AG1970 and 1980/5710, so they may not have the same transport mechanics at all (but it wouldn't be unusual for Panasonic to recycle an idler tire). Without both service manuals citing a similar part number, you'd have to experiment. (Even the 1970 transport is quite different from the identical-looking 1980/5710.)

The voltage variance between your 1980 and 5710 could be for several reasons, not least of which something being funky in one or the other. The 5710 has several design alterations besides the obvious lack of tuner: it includes the professional time code reader, RS232C interface, a different edit controller circuit and connector, no front panel inputs, and a different rear connection panel. Any of these could cause voltage to differ from the 1980: one would need the 5710 service manual to confirm the correct specs.

I am in awe of your patience with all that soldering: I can't really afford to send mine out for repair but I'd rather survive on stale bread for three months than replace dozens of caps myself in each of four 1980s and 5710s. Ugh.

[Milesdrifter]

LOL! ya, I got nothing better to do at this moment in time, I think that my be a problem, in a few different areas! I brought that 5710 home with no other idea than it looked like a good source of parts and it had BNC connectors, which I had plan to strip for some radio connections. Then I found out that this was one of the "Olympians" (pun) of the home VCR world. I had an old concert tape I recorded in 2001 that never played very well and was flabergasted at the performance. lack of funds and love of electronics in general was what spurred the replacement journey. I was also tired of the diagonal lines. I seem to get way less of the "smearing" effect from the composite out, so I decided to replace the caps in the ADC V-200x I got as a package deal over a year ago. I got the 200x, 300x, 400x(audio) and the combo units of the 500x(color + enhancement) and the 800x(dolby audio) for under 40$. I didnt think to include the fact of the RS-232 control or the time code in the voltage I discovered. I have the service manual I found online for free to the 1980, couldnt find the S/M to the 5710. The display was pretty close to dead, but the internal condition of the VCR is spectacular(besides the heads). I think it must have been left on constantly by prev. owner. As you could prob. guess I got a collection of over 100 tapes, and have been trying to figure out the best way to capture them, I curr. own no such device to do so, and would only go for the best capture poss.. I lent the VCR to a friend lik 2 years ago to capture some old concert footage from band Yes. He posted it on youtube but he used one of those dongle devices so I told him to use my VCR, made a huge difference.
I would start a repair shop online if we didnt now live in a throw-away society, but damn, it makes great parts sourcing when walkin down the street before garbage day!

[Milesdrifter]

Just a question concerning the "smearing" effect on these 5710/1980 VCR's, I would assume it has more to do with the digital TBC/NR of the Panasonic, but does anyone notice this effect with older and/or rental tapes? I am starting to think that one would see this more on these due to the magnetic particles on the tape starting to lose cohesion to their original placement on the cassette tape. I see more of this effect on old (pre mid 90's) tapes and rentals I got from the flea mart years ago. Just a guess, shot in the dark.
Milesdrifter

[orsetto]

The smearing effect is most noticeable on faces in closeup, less so in other areas, although scenes shot with handheld cameras for that trendy tedious "authentic" look can seem to go totally haywire with the background smearing or moving independently of the foreground elements. The smearing effect is exaggerated by large LCD television displays with their dead-slow response times, CRT and plasma displays conceal it better.

The smearing (or what I call "temporal distortion") is caused by the DNR more than the TBC. Unfortunately the DNR is always active, nonadjustable, and cannot be disabled in the AG1980 / AG5710. While these two Panasonics are somewhat less prone to motion distortion than the popular JVC and Mitsubishi VCRs with TBC/DNR, at least those other brands give the option to completely disable the TBC/DNR when it becomes obnoxious.

I'm very sensitive to this distortion, to the point where I simply stopped using all TBC/DNR VCRs for awhile. I switched to good plain-jane VCRs for a long run of tape dubs. A few months ago, I started on a batch of tapes with severe color noise and other issues that look much better when cleaned by TBC/DNR, so returned to my AG5710s, AG1980s, and Mitsubishi HS-HD2000. This time around, I noticed the 5710 had the least amount of DNR distortion. BUT: its highly dependent on the condition of the VCR. Out of three 1980s and five 5710s, only two still had mostly-decent caps. Those two gave amazing DNR performance while the others were merely OK. After exchanging thoughts with several other Panasonic owners, I've come to the conclusion they need more than just random caps replaced. To perform their best, they need to be carefully tested and overhauled by a tech who has some clue to their peculiar design. DIY repair can and does work for some, but considering my initial outlay for these VCRs was next to nothing I'm willing to pay more for pro service to obtain the max performance they are capable of.

That, and the idea of desoldering and resoldering all those caps on all those boards myself gives me hives.

[Milesdrifter]

LOL! I have 2 irons, one a higher wattage than the other for the removal phase. I love the differing smells of yesteryear solder(lead prob.) although try not to breath in much of it! I hear ya on the "jitters" one gets from the thought of opening up a decade and some odd year old piece of equipment, that was why I asked about anyone knowing if the idler tire was interchangeable, for me the boards are one thing, but the mechanics are a whole other cup of tea. I think I may give that another look though, the tire from the old 1960 looks like rubber, the one in my 5710 is more a dark grey, and slight cracks on edges. I DEFINITELY am with you on the close-up of faces, this is where this particular distortion is the most noticeable. I just seem to notice it more on certain tapes, these being some old ones and my rental copy of Jurassic Park II, from 1998. On the cap issue, I replaced all but 2 in the P/S (didn't have direct swap on-hand), and the 8-10 that were in the display P/S. I was running out of new caps so I left the TBC board alone, but I will get to it eventually. Maybe this will help the smearing issue more, but I really seen no improvement in this department after I recapped what I had in this VCR. For 10$, it was like someone sold me a Ferrari 328 GTS for 100$ and it just needs some TLC, now who could pass that up? I am going to find the appropriate section on here and post my question concerning those ADC processors, even though they are composite only. Have a good one, Milesdrifter

[orsetto]

I love the differing smells of yesteryear solder(lead prob.) although try not to breath in much of it!

Yup: ventilation is another issue. This summer has been so hot I haven't opened a window for three weeks (24/7 AC). No way can I even consider a solder project until October, when I can go out to the garage. I've been meaning to replace the noisy motor in my old turntable for months, then summer hit: no vinyl for me until fall.

Its a good thing these classic VCRs all pre-date the recent thoughtless enactment of moronic misguided "green" legislation in the EU requiring all new electronics to use lead-free solder. We're already seeing a staggering increase in solder joint failures in products that comply with this stupid edict, and repairs made with the new solder are so fragile its almost not worth bothering. The net effect of this knee-jerk green nonsense will be a massive rampup of completely disposable non-repairable electronics cluttering landfills worldwide, coupled with mass dumping of older more toxic items that would have otherwise been maintained. And we wonder why the entire continent seems to be sliding into bankruptcy: look no further than the genius bureaucrats in charge.

[Milesdrifter]

whoever said I have no love for our country was dead wrong; now as to the people that have somehow remained in the position to run it, oh boy! I thought when you didnt do a good job, or at least passable, you got fired? Who would fire themselves, being this completely failing boss? I think in the coming years we as a people of our country need to look back in history and see why we left grand old England. OK, enough, this is why I stay away from politics, somehow the word itself is evil. Oh, and thanks for the confidence in the recap situation I have begun, I am using solder from radio shack that as I type reading on the bottom: Warning, contains lead. I dd think the 40/60 stuff was still good!

[orsetto]

Well, 40/60 is still better than "lead free."


Sorry, I didn't mean to spark a political discussion, since that's (rightly) frowned upon in tech forums. I was just commenting that some "good intentions" of the green movement can backfire horrendously when micromanaged without thought to the larger picture. The goal should be to keep electronic items usable as long as possible, not make them more failure prone and impossible to repair. Outlawing leaded solder within the EU was ill-considered pandering which will have negative effects far beyond European borders. A few puffs of lead smoke from a brief solder repair beats having a forty pound vintage amplifier or AG1980 decomposing and releasing all manner of pollutants in a landfill for years on end.

[Milesdrifter]

sorry bout that, my bad. I just cant stand seeing all the campaign ads that will be on till Nov. I got some 4 or 6% silver solder laying around somewhere if that is what ya mean, but I only use this on my RF stuff I build. "Well, 40/60 is still better than "lead free." " I know there are other mixes out there but his seems to do fine for me. I was mainly worried about using all 105c caps, even though all the ones out of the mains supply were all the higher temp. ones I believe. Have you ever replaced an Idler tire in these? I ripped the whole assembly out of the old 1960 and see a plastic plug or bushing(doesnt ride against the inside of the tire) in the bottom of the tire. I dont know if that can be pulled out and the tire removed or if the whole bracket/assembly needs to be swapped, cause I see that these are different between the AG-1960 and the 5710. the tire itself seems glued or heated onto a metal wheel in its center. I dont know exactly where or even if you can still get these, and I measured them with a dial caliper and they are the same size. Thanks for the input so far, Milesdrifter

[Milesdrifter]

I just found out that it is called a Pinch roller, not the idler tire. The component I speak of when layed flat(rolls like a tire) is twice as wide as it is in diameter. I wasnt sure if these changed out or if you needed the arm that holds it as well. If not I can see if the one I have from my AG-1960 would swap out with it. Thanks, Milesdrifter

[Milesdrifter]

I found the pinch roller assembly, its part # is VXL2246. I found the roller with attached arm and part of the plastic cylinder that travels from what I can see on a worm gear. I am going to attempt to remove it from the VCR, but the service manual I have is for the K assembly and does not show exactly how to disassemble, just the exploded parts diagram. Even though the part is only round 13$ I am going to mark what position the gears are in in case there would be a timing/position issue, and see if the roller I have from the AG-1960 will interchange. I know, there is like a 10 year difference in the two, but the roller must have been changed out in the ag-1960 I picked up. Wish me luck! Milesdrifter

[DeLoach]

The AG1980 and AG5710 are more sensitive to aging caps issues than any other VCR or electronic device I've ever used. I haven't seen these issues at all in the older AG1970s I have stacked to the rafters, nor have I seen such issues occur in JVCs, Mitsubishis, or even Sony BetaMax models dating back 25 years. It is generally true all critical electronics should have crucial sections recapped as they age out, but practically speaking it rarely causes the significant defects one regularly sees in the AG1980/AG5710 twins.

Orsetto, Sorry to resurrect and maybe hijack this thread, but the thread is not active and I don't see another one more relevent to my issues. I have an AG5710 that I bought brand new about 8 years ago (new old stock) from a commercial video store. I have not put much time on it (maybe 80-100 hours at most), but after leaving it in climate controlled storage for the last 4 of those years, when I went to use it again, the entire front display is dark. The machine was working perfectly the last time I used it. I was wondering if you think it could be a Capacitor issue? I have replaced hundreds of caps, so I am quite comfortable doing it, I just don't know if I want to. Also, with that little usage time on the machine, should I even be suspecting caps at all. Some of your other comments on this and other threads have made me think that time can be a factor in caps as much as usage. If you don't think it is caps, then what else could it possibly be? I have a complete Service Manual for the AG5710 and I am comfortable taking it apart. Your comments?

In this past week alone I have had two 1980s and two 5710s fail on me, after working perfectly for the past year.... <snip> ...It isn't a DIY job for amateurs: unless you're very confident with a soldering iron, hand these VCRs to a pro repair tech. I'll soon be sending one to the service center recommended by LS (JOTS Electronics in Texas). If I like their work, the other three will follow. ... <snip> ... I'd advise anyone buying a used 1980 or 5710 to have it overhauled immediately, as a hedge against the future. I wouldn't want to be seeking service for one of these five years from now.

I am curious about a few things here: (1) Did you ever send your machine to JOTS? If so, how do you rate their service? (2) Given what I have told you about my AG5710, would you still recommend a professional overhaul? (3) Other than the caps and whatever repairs are needed, what do you consider an "Overhaul"? and Finally, (4) What do you think about Southern Advantage in North Carolina as a possible repair/service option?

If I can't get the display going myself and I can't locate a donor machine, and the caps DO need to be replaced, I may just send it to whoever you recommend as competent. I can do caps, but it is such a boring dredge.

Thanks in advance for your comments, AND anyone else's who thinks they may be able to shed some light.

PS:
MilesDrifter: I thought I read somewhere that you wanted a SM for the AG5710? I have a few hard to get manuals I am going to offer LordSmurf for the Digital FAQ site, so you may be able to get it there in a little while. I just need to go through what I have to see what holes need filling over there. I have a lot of manuals.

[orsetto]

Gary,

The display going dark is a sure sign of power supply issues. There are two failure modes for the display: the power tap for the display fails first but the general PSU functions OK for a long period after, or the dimming display is caused by overall PSU failure quickly followed by degradation of video output (faded or inaccurate colors, white static that emulates tape dropouts, or gradual blackout/return of the video signal).

Repairing the display brightness is as difficult as repairing the entire power subsystem, so most owners just live with the dim display as long as the video performance remains solid. The span of time between the display going dim and the video output degrading noticeably varies from unit to unit: anywhere from several weeks to more than a year. The biggest pain with these models is identifying the failure point(s) among all the caps: this is why DIY repair is vastly more difficult and time-consuming than with other VCRs. Time is money for repair shops: you'll pay as much or more for them to track down the precise fault as you will to have them recap the whole machine. If you're a whiz with a soldering iron and have a lot of time on your hands, DIY can be very cheap, but not a project to take lightly.

I haven't sent any of my AG1980s or AG5710s to JOTS yet, I've been using other VCRs for awhile now. I gather the chief VCR tech at JOTS recently retired, which is a bummer, but one assumes if they want to maintain their reputation he must have trained a successor. A couple people have told me they are going to send their 1980s in soon, and will advise me of their JOTS experiences. AFAIK, there is no serious alternative to JOTS (i.e. the less said about Southern Advantage, the better). At this point I'm debating whether its even worth having AG1980 or AG5710 repaired: finding a competent local tech is near impossible, and the cost is astronomical with no real guarantee the repairs will last more than a few months. The basic design is flawed: the machines chew thru caps like a teenager goes thru sneakers.

[DeLoach]

Orsetto,
Thanks so much for your response! Based on what you said, I mostly suspect the power tap. A couple of factors lead me to say that. Feel free to tell me I am full of it if I am incorrect:

1. The 5710 has very little time on it (75-100 hours at most), and was functioning PERFECTLY just before I put it away.
2. It has always been stored in an air conditioned, fully climate controlled and dry environment.
3. When I powered it up after storage, the display was not just dim, it was BLACK, completely out. Plus, it didn't GO dim after powering up, it powered up BLACK - OUT completely. IOW: it isn't GOING dark, it was totally dark from the power up.
4. I was able to load a tape and play it without the display, and the loading occurred at normal speed with no hesitations. The video output was just as good and stable as I remember it ever being with no noticeable distortions or degradation at all, over an S-Vid connection on a Sony PVM-14N5U Hi-Res Broadcast monitor.
5. All tape transport functions appeared to be at normal speeds with no noticeable hesitations.
6. All functions appear to be very normal. I just can't see anything on the front panel display.

I was able to have a fairly lengthy discussion over the phone with a repair tech at Southern Advantage (I didn't know at the time that they are considered to be incompetent). He said based on my descriptions, that it sounded most probably like just a connection that had become dislodged or corroded to prevent enough current from getting to the display. I have not yet opened the case, so I do not know how accurate that assessment may be, but based on your reaction, I am not putting much faith in it.

Some questions:

1. Do you happen to know how many caps are involved in a 5710 rebuild? Do you possibly have a list of them? Just trying to figure out what I might be getting myself into on this.
2. How do you go about repairing or replacing the "Power Tap"? Is it a specialized part or something generic?

Anyway, I am trying to be optimistic, but I realize I might just be putting the face on this that I want to see. Since there are no good techs around anymore, and I probably can't afford it anyway, I am going to have to do this myself. I sold off all my Hi-end VCR's over the last couple years (1980's, 1970's, 9500's, 9600, 9800 and a brand new Mits 2000 in a sealed factory box). I chose to keep only the 5710. Turned out to be a mistake I guess, but it is now my only S-VHS VCR so I am going to have to make it work. (sure wish I had kept the Mits 2000).

Love to hear your comments, and Thanks again for your help,
Gary

[orsetto]

It is certainly possible you have a corroded or broken connection to the display, if all other functions of your AG5710 are working normally. If that is the case, and you can manage without the display, it may be best to live with the VCR as-is. The trouble with the AG1980/AG5710 is once you dive in to repair one problem, it sets off a cascade of other problems and you can play whack-a-mole with it for the rest of your life. So as long as the video output is good, you're better off leaving it alone. I would suggest you double check that the display is indeed completely black: turn on your 5710 tonight with no room lights, and get your eyes an inch from the display. If it is absolutely utterly black, you have a bad connection, but if you can see even the faintest segment of the display anywhere, you're dealing with a power and/or cap issue. You need to thoroughly examine the display in a dark room: most that look totally dead are actually just barely illuminated in one or two spots, indicationg circuit degradation.

I don't have detailed info about how to service aging 1980 and 5710 vcrs. The service manual is now only a starting point: it applied when the machines were current, but they developed eccentric problems over the years that Panasonic could not anticipate in a service manual (nor did they reasonably expect them to still be in use 21 years after being mfrd). This is why finding a tech who has long experience with these specific models is essential to keep them in perfect working order. Most of the cautions I've related regarding DIY repair come from a handful of retired techs who have posted extensively on other video forums, I believe one of them is active on LordSmurf's DigitalFAQ site but I could be wrong (haven't checked in more than a year). The consensus from them is that once the electronics start acting up, it is best to replace every single one of the dozens and dozens of caps on the PSU and video boards, no matter how small. Apparently they are very sensitive to each other, so replacing just one can destabilize and screw up some other remaining originals. Such an extreme clean sweep replacement job is extraordinarily tedious, so DIY owners rarely attempt it and you pay dearly for any tech willing to still do it.

It pains me to say these units are fast approaching orphaned unrepairable status, because they offer an irreplaceable alternative to the JVC and Mitsubishi TBC/DNR. The JVC and MGA work very well, but tend to soften the video more than the 5710, and their inability to decouple their TBC from their DNR makes them incompatible with a wider variety of "problem" tapes that need DNR but go nuts when the TBC is applied. Also the AG1980/AG5710 seem to "instinctively" sense when a tape has very unrealistic oversaturated color, and their DNR automatically dials that down to a more watchable level. The JVC and Mitsubishi will reduce the noise in the color but not correct the saturation: this can be difficult to tame post-capture. If only Panasonic had used more of an IC approach to their TBC/DNR instead of a bajillion discrete caps, the AG1980 and AG5710 would be far more dependable and useful. The older but mostly similar AG1970 is dramatically more reliable: I've never had one fail on me. So something fundamental was altered in the upgrade path to AG1980/AG5710. I've very rarely heard of the JVC and Mitsubishi TBC/DNR circuits failing, perhaps because the design is more streamlined.

[NJRoadfan]

Recapping the Y/C board alone is a bit of a task. It has over 30 caps and most of them are surface mount and those are the ones that usually fail. Photos of the board here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-repair/5166-panasonic-ag-1980-a-2.html

The display board has a few caps on it, but they are through-hole radials which are relatively easy to change. I wish I could get ahold of a dirt cheap AG-1980/5710 with the typical video output and display problems to recap and see where the problem areas really lay. Even broken units are commanding a price premium for some reason. For being an extremely common unit, I'm surprised no VCR techs have popped up in any of these forums to point out where the problems usually are.

[DeLoach]

NJRoadfan:Where do you live? I might be interested in getting you to re-cap my relatively new 5710 with the display out problem (see above discussion), if as you infer, you are primarily interested in a learning exercise. I have a source for the caps at pretty good prices. I have replaced a lot of caps (mostly power supplies), but I'm just not sure I want to dive into this problem that deep. Orsetto seems to think my display problem is PSU related however. Let me know,
Gary

[DeLoach]

It is certainly possible you have a corroded or broken connection to the display, if all other functions of your AG5710 are working normally. If that is the case, and you can manage without the display, it may be best to live with the VCR as-is. The trouble with the AG1980/AG5710 is once you dive in to repair one problem, it sets off a cascade of other problems and you can play whack-a-mole with it for the rest of your life. So as long as the video output is good, you're better off leaving it alone. I would suggest you double check that the display is indeed completely black: turn on your 5710 tonight with no room lights, and get your eyes an inch from the display. If it is absolutely utterly black, you have a bad connection, but if you can see even the faintest segment of the display anywhere, you're dealing with a power and/or cap issue. You need to thoroughly examine the display in a dark room: most that look totally dead are actually just barely illuminated in one or two spots, indicationg circuit degradation. <snip> ...

Orsetto:
I took your advice and looked carefully at the display in a darkened room. I had to even get under a black felt backdrop that I use for photography to see it but sure enough, there is the ever-so-faintest glow in the display in the lower left corner, barely 2-3% of the screen and almost undetectable, but it is there. DARNIT!


Anyway, I would feel OK re-capping just the power supply, which you said is the likely culprit of this kind of problem. But you seemed to indicate that this might cause other problems if I did. Did I understand you correctly? Well, with JOTS gone and since there is apparently now no good alternative place to get it repaired (not sure I could afford it anyway), I wanted to ask you what you thought of using the Panasonic AG-A571P Editing Controller as a substitute display and sort of workaround solution. I can get one pretty reasonable from a local surplus warehouse in the area, and it would be considerably less than what a repair would cost. However, is this a feasible and/or practical thing to do in your opinion? Interested to know what you think.


Thanks so much!

[orsetto]

You must make your own decision on how to proceed, of course, but the experience of most AG1980 and AG5710 owners indicates it is best to not make any attempt to repair the display issue unless or until you start noticing problems with the video output. The power supply and video boards are very sensitive to each other in unpredictable ways: in many cases, the display power can fail while power to the video boards remains stable for quite a long time. Any attempt to restore power to the display can disrupt that delicate aging balance, and trigger video output problems that are much harder to troubleshoot. Also, its "in for a penny, in for a pound" with these units: a display repair is only barely less effort than repairing the video as well while you have the thing opened up. It makes sense to wait until the video fails, then repair the whole unit in one shot. (Back when they were still new-ish vcrs, you could swap out the entire PSU for a new module with much less trouble and the video board hadn't aged to the point where it was so sensitive yet).

Your idea to use an external AGA-571P edit controller as makeshift tape counter display is a good one, I do this myself with AG-A96 edit controllers for my AG1980s with dead displays. They have large LCD displays which are remarkably durable. The AGA-571P was/is fairly hard to find, you're lucky you spotted one at reasonable cost. They were triple the price of the AGA-96 when new, and very few AG5710s were sold compared to AG1980s, so AG-A571P controllers are scarce. The AG-A96 usually sells for $60 or even half that on eBay, and has the virtue of twin counter displays so you can read/control two AG1980 vcrs simultaneously with one AG-A96. I believe the AG-A571 has only one counter display that you can toggle between two AG5710 vcrs, but it has a sturdier build quality and connects via standard RS-232C serial cables which allows you to choose whatever cable length you need. The AG-A96 has built-in DIN cables of in-between length: too long or two short for most users.

[DeLoach]

You must make your own decision on how to proceed, of course, but the experience of most AG1980 and AG5710 owners indicates it is best to not make any attempt to repair the display issue unless or until you start noticing problems with the video output. The power supply and video boards are very sensitive to each other in unpredictable ways: in many cases, the display power can fail while power to the video boards remains stable for quite a long time. Any attempt to restore power to the display can disrupt that delicate aging balance, and trigger video output problems that are much harder to troubleshoot. Also, its "in for a penny, in for a pound" with these units: a display repair is only barely less effort than repairing the video as well while you have the thing opened up. It makes sense to wait until the video fails, then repair the whole unit in one shot. (Back when they were still new-ish vcrs, you could swap out the entire PSU for a new module with much less trouble and the video board hadn't aged to the point where it was so sensitive yet).

I am going to play it safe and leave it alone for now, as you recommend. I have a bad habit of creating more problems than I have the skills or time to solve.

Your idea to use an external AGA-571P edit controller as makeshift tape counter display is a good one, I do this myself with AG-A96 edit controllers for my AG1980s with dead displays. They have large LCD displays which are remarkably durable. The AGA-571P was/is fairly hard to find, you're lucky you spotted one at reasonable cost. They were triple the price of the AGA-96 when new, and very few AG5710s were sold compared to AG1980s, so AG-A571P controllers are scarce. The AG-A96 usually sells for $60 or even half that on eBay, and has the virtue of twin counter displays so you can read/control two AG1980 vcrs simultaneously with one AG-A96. I believe the AG-A571 has only one counter display that you can toggle between two AG5710 vcrs, but it has a sturdier build quality and connects via standard RS-232C serial cables which allows you to choose whatever cable length you need. The AG-A96 has built-in DIN cables of in-between length: too long or two short for most users.

GREAT! Glad to hear it! Matter of fact, I was snooping around ebay this morning and found an AG-A571P Brand NEW for $49 + $16 shipping. Wow! After reading your reply, I quickly pulled the trigger on it. The only other one on ebay, the seller wants $699! Sheesh! Looks like I caught a bit of luck on that one.


Orsetto, THANK YOU so very much for your generous time sharing your vast knowledge of these older decks. I seriously don't know what we would do without guys like you, Lord Smurf and others. Please do let us know when you find a competent repair tech for these Panasonics. I do love these machines and I would like to keep it running as long as I can.
Thanks again,
Gary

[lordsmurf]

AG-5710 = AG-1980, just sans tuner.

That tidbit of info may help.

[DeLoach]

Thanks for trying to help, Lord Smurf! I actually already knew that, but unfortunately some of the parts do not interchange, like (sadly) the display board specifically. I was all ready to buy one on ebay recently until I found out that the AG-1980P board will not work. Why I can't understand, but it won't. I'm really bummed about this. I can't believe I am having these kind of problems on a machine with less than 100 capstan hours on it! I bought this thing brand new. Now I am wishing I had sold this machine and kept the brand new in sealed box Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U I sold for $900. I should have bought 2 of them when I had the chance for $199 each. I guess I am just going to resign myself to using the AG-A571P Editing Controller for now, as the video output from the 5710 is still stellar. Couple years ago, due mostly to space constraints, I decided to sell off all my high end JVC's, Mitsu's & some Panny's and just keep ONE. I kept this one because it had the least time on it. Bad decision evidently.

BTW: as soon as I get the time to inventory all my User & Service manuals, I will send you a list to see which ones you need for your website. Unless of course, you want me to handle it a different way.
Thanks again,
Gary

[lordsmurf]

BTW: as soon as I get the time to inventory all my User & Service manuals, I will send you a list to see which ones you need for your website. Unless of course, you want me to handle it a different way.
Thanks again,
Gary

Definitely contact me.

I'm interested in pretty much any user/service manual for any VCR. And then other gear (TBCs, proc amps, etc). Those should be free, not on those scammy sites. The goal is to make as many available as is possible.

[orsetto]

AG-5710 = AG-1980, just sans tuner.

That tidbit of info may help.

That is the most obvious difference to the casual user, but there are other quite significant differences under the hood. The AG5710 does not have front-panel composite/s-video inputs, and does not respond to Panasonic wireless/infrared remote controls. It also lacks connections for the inexpensive "prosumer" AG-A95 and AG-A96 edit controllers common to the AG1950, AG1960, AG1970 and AG1980. Instead, the AG5710 has the studio-standard RS232C serial interface allowing it to be remotely controlled by PCs, studio edit desks and RS-232C remote modules like the AG-A571. It also reads and records the professional studio grade CTL time code system (you sacrifice the linear audio track if you use this feature).

The CTL feature alone made the AG5710 hugely more expensive than the AG1980 back in their heyday, The internal changes made to accommodate its professional upgrades mean the AG5710 circuits are not always identical to the AG1980. It tends to have the same age-failure modes, i.e. the front panel display is near-dead on most of them. But the circuit interdependencies are slightly different, so repairs are slightly trickier, with some parts not interchangeable with the AG1980. This is similar to how the older AG1970 looks exactly like the AG1980 and AG5710 on the outside, but shares nearly nothing in common with them internally (different transports, PSUs, and video boards).

In some respects both the AG1980 and AG5710 were "downgrades" from the older AG1970: the two later models had much better video output but got horribly unreliable as they aged. The AG1970 has average/good video output but is mechanically/electronically bulletproof: you can't kill one unless you run over it with a cement truck (and even then it might still work). The only thing that ever goes wrong with the AG1970 is the faded front display (and occasionally the front loading system needs to be adjusted).